Holes in the social safety net: Keeping the poor in their place

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posted on Jul, 14 2008 @ 12:17 PM
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reply to post by jam321
 


I agree. We are willing to spend almost unlimited amounts of borrowed money to spread democracy to people who evidently don't want it, but not a dime on a person who's struggling to make their life better at home.




posted on Jul, 14 2008 @ 12:24 PM
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reply to post by jam321
 

Double post. Sorry.

[edit on 14-7-2008 by Sestias]



posted on Jul, 14 2008 @ 12:41 PM
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Originally posted by Sestias
reply to post by jam321
 


I agree. We are willing to spend almost unlimited amounts of borrowed money to spread democracy to people who evidently don't want it, but not a dime on a person who's struggling to make their life better at home.


This country spends $1.5 TRILLION per year at the federal level on various social welfare transfer payments. That's a far cry from 'not a dime'.

www.census.gov...



posted on Jul, 14 2008 @ 01:00 PM
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Do any of you naysayers have a solution as to how a single mom with 5 kids can get a full time job and come out ahead?
Do you have any idea of the cost of child care?
And how about the kids that are in school - who gets them ready for school and Who cares for them after school?

Put yourself in her shoes and play the part - see how it works out.
Let me hear from you after you have done this.

If you are retired and collecting Social Security (your money allegedly invested by TPTB) and.....
you decide to work to have some extra....
And you make over a certain piddling amount. (about $6000)...
You will be penalized by the withholding of your SS Checks. (Your money alledgedly invested by TPTB for your benefit)



posted on Jul, 14 2008 @ 03:25 PM
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Originally posted by OhZone
Do any of you naysayers have a solution as to how a single mom with 5 kids can get a full time job and come out ahead?
Do you have any idea of the cost of child care?
And how about the kids that are in school - who gets them ready for school and Who cares for them after school?

Put yourself in her shoes and play the part - see how it works out.
Let me hear from you after you have done this.

If you are retired and collecting Social Security (your money allegedly invested by TPTB) and.....
you decide to work to have some extra....
And you make over a certain piddling amount. (about $6000)...
You will be penalized by the withholding of your SS Checks. (Your money alledgedly invested by TPTB for your benefit)


Hmm so let me get this right...she has 1 kid...then 2...then 3..then 4...then 5....can't afford any of them, doesn't work...AND MY GUESS IS SHE HAD MORE KIDS WHILE UNEMPLOYED...FOR MORE MONEY!!!...and you want me to feel bad for her. Give me a break...close the legs, get a job, WORK...and when your busting your butt...see how happy you are some chick is popping out 5 kids she knows she cant afford and SHE...YES SHE puts herself in the hard position of being a mother of 5 kids knowing she can't make ends meet after..oh I don't know 2 or 3!!!!!!!!!!

EDIT TO ADD: This means I and others shouldn't have to work longer hours and make the same amount of money so people like her can be irresponsible then use the OH POOR ME thing to get free cash...

[edit on 7/14/2008 by rcwj75]



posted on Jul, 14 2008 @ 04:10 PM
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Originally posted by vor78

Originally posted by Sestias
reply to post by jam321
 


I agree. We are willing to spend almost unlimited amounts of borrowed money to spread democracy to people who evidently don't want it, but not a dime on a person who's struggling to make their life better at home.


This country spends $1.5 TRILLION per year at the federal level on various social welfare transfer payments. That's a far cry from 'not a dime'.

www.census.gov...


You're right. "Not a dime" is a bit of hyperbole, meant for effect.



posted on Jul, 17 2008 @ 09:33 PM
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No more responses? One of my main points, in posting this, is that government benefits are only for those who have nothing and are never going to have anything. They are intended to make those who are down stay down, as they are penalized for every effort to rise.

Ending the social safety net is not the answer. So what is?



posted on Jul, 18 2008 @ 04:10 AM
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Originally posted by Sestias
No more responses? One of my main points, in posting this, is that government benefits are only for those who have nothing and are never going to have anything. They are intended to make those who are down stay down, as they are penalized for every effort to rise.

Ending the social safety net is not the answer. So what is?


Personal responsibility.

Nothing could be easier to understand.



posted on Jul, 18 2008 @ 05:18 AM
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Originally posted by Sestias

Before someone else brings it up, I'd like to add that government benefits are not adequate to live on in the first place. IMO it's not that government benefits are too high, but that entry-level wages are too low. There should be a way for the head of a household who is working at minimum wage to receive some assistance for themselves and their families, even if it was only some food stamps. If there was a way to work and still be able to get ahead a little bit there would be much more incentive to work. What's demoralizing and breeds hopelessness is not being able to get ahead no matter what you do.

[edit on 8-7-2008 by Sestias]


maybe in your state, but for many states, you can earn up to maybe $9 or so an hour, depending on your family size, and still get food stamps, hud, help with healthcare, heap, ect. although, that all also will take into account what you have as assetts.
and well, someone said that the welfare mother with five kids should be getting a job, the social service in NY would help witht he childcare, about 5 or so years back, they would pay around $3/hr per child. that would mean that the lady would have to make more than $15 an hour just to recoup the child care cost. she isn't gonna make that much, that expense will be considered when she applies for these aid programs, and guess what...we end up giving more to her, even when she has a job, since she's now has the additional expense of child care, transportation, clothing, meals at work, ect. While I do agree that there is a barrier in place making sure that the needy stay needy, I don't see how the restrictions on savings is that barrier. and well, how much would this lady have to save to send her kid through college? $50,000? $100,000?? whatever, I can just about guarentee that it would be more than what I earn in a year! why should I be pitching in to help someone pay their rent, their electricity, buy their food, ect....if they have that kind of money stashed for a rainy day...every day is a rainy day for me, and well...ain't no one helping me!
the eligibility guidelines are not in sinc with the true cost of living, so, people are okay, as long as they continue to work those lower paying jobs, but if they ever happen to luck out and get a job paying a halfway decent wage, well, they are gonna be knocked back down real quick. their childcare will no longer be subsidized, their food stamps, their hud, their heap, the healthcare will be their sole responsibility, and their paycheck will not cover it. I don't know if it's true or not, but one politician was on tv stating that one third of the the families in the US are relyling on these programs to make up for the shortfall of their paycheck. seems to me, that they would have more incentive to keep that low paying job (unless they can land a really good paying job) that to ask their boss for a dollar an hour raise.
if it is truly one third of the families, well, forget about the illegal mexican driving our wages down, it's that deep dark gap that exists between being dependant and being mildly comfortably independant.
like I've said before, our country susposedly charishes freedom, if this is so, well, that freedom is dependant on the american people living independant on the government for the most part. dependancy=servitude.



posted on Jul, 18 2008 @ 04:43 PM
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Originally posted by dawnstar
if it is truly one third of the families, well, forget about the illegal mexican driving our wages down, it's that deep dark gap that exists between being dependant and being mildly comfortably independant.
like I've said before, our country susposedly charishes freedom, if this is so, well, that freedom is dependant on the american people living independant on the government for the most part. dependancy=servitude.


Agreed.

It takes more than minimum wage, though, to be "mildly comfortably independent." And in my state if you make $5.00 an hour you're not eligible for much assistance, if any, unless you have a lot of kids. I'm reasonably certain that nowhere near 1/3 of our families receive benefits. The "working poor"--the ones who work full time and still can't get by, much less get ahead--are deserving of effort and resources as well, and they don't get much attention.

As you say, getting assistance robs people of their independence and the ability to make their own decisions for themselves. There should be ways of helping people get up that don't keep them down.



posted on Jul, 18 2008 @ 07:56 PM
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reply to post by Sestias
 


These are the requirements for food stamps in the state of tx. I picked tx. because it's probably the most stingy state that I know of when it comes to gov't aide.



In order to qualify for this benefit program, you must be a resident of the State of Texas and fall into one of two groups:

(1) those with a current bank balance (savings and checking combined) under $2,001, or

(2) those with a current bank balance (savings and checking combined) under $3,001 who share their household with a person or persons age 60 and over, or with a person with a disability (a child, your spouse, a parent, or yourself).

For either group, you must also have an annual household income of:

Less than $11,677 if 1 person lives in the household

Less than $15,757 if 2 people live in the household

Less than $19,849 if 3 people live in the household

Less than $23,929 if 4 people live in the household

Less than $28,009, if 5 people live in the household

Less than $32,089 if 6 people live in the household

Less than $36,169 if 7 people live in the household

Less than $40,249 if more than 7 people live in the household.

www.easttexasfoodbank.org...

if more than 2 people, the income is above $8.00/hr, probably closer to 9. the more people is in the family, the higher it goes up, all the way to over $40,000, if you want a really big family! hud, heap, medicaid, they all have about the same income guidelines.



posted on Jul, 18 2008 @ 09:39 PM
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reply to post by dawnstar
 

I know someone who gets $623 a month and only $15 in food stamps. She lives alone. They said it was because she went from $250 a month to $623--A FOUR HUNDRED DOLLAR INCREASE. So she went from impossible to live on to still impossible to live on and they cut her benefits.

I think social services vary from county to county as well as state to state, but it still looks like Texas is more generous than my state.



posted on Jul, 19 2008 @ 02:22 AM
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Originally posted by Sestias


It takes more than minimum wage, though, to be "mildly comfortably independent." And in my state if you make $5.00 an hour you're not eligible for much assistance, if any, unless you have a lot of kids. I'm reasonably certain that nowhere near 1/3 of our families receive benefits. The "working poor"--the ones who work full time and still can't get by, much less get ahead--are deserving of effort and resources as well, and they don't get much attention.

As you say, getting assistance robs people of their independence and the ability to make their own decisions for themselves. There should be ways of helping people get up that don't keep them down.



Why is an adult only making 5 bucks per hour? Minimum wage isn't mean to be enough to live on, it is an entry level wage designed for people with zero job skills, which is why you see teenagers manning most of the positions that get paid minimum wage.



posted on Jul, 19 2008 @ 07:10 AM
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Originally posted by slackerwire

Originally posted by Sestias


It takes more than minimum wage, though, to be "mildly comfortably independent." And in my state if you make $5.00 an hour you're not eligible for much assistance, if any, unless you have a lot of kids. I'm reasonably certain that nowhere near 1/3 of our families receive benefits. The "working poor"--the ones who work full time and still can't get by, much less get ahead--are deserving of effort and resources as well, and they don't get much attention.

As you say, getting assistance robs people of their independence and the ability to make their own decisions for themselves. There should be ways of helping people get up that don't keep them down.



Why is an adult only making 5 bucks per hour? Minimum wage isn't mean to be enough to live on, it is an entry level wage designed for people with zero job skills, which is why you see teenagers manning most of the positions that get paid minimum wage.


because dear, we have this thing, called the "traditional family" that many try to live...it's where dad goes out and earns the money, mom stays home and takes care of the kids and home. thus, when mom and dad split up, all the earning power goes with the dad, and mom is not in a position to be able to earn that kind of money!
I've got over 5 years of experience now in the printing industry, I don't even make 9 an hour. my kids are grown, but if they weren't and dad was to go, well....I would be qualified for all those benefits! the employers don't have to worry anymore about their employees freezing to death while sleeping outside in cardboard boxes or dropping due to starvation while working....so why should they pay them a living wage, we, the taxpayers will do it for them...makes for "record profits", an awesome stock market.....and a country with billions of debt racked up!



posted on Jul, 19 2008 @ 07:11 AM
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Originally posted by Sestias
reply to post by dawnstar
 

I know someone who gets $623 a month and only $15 in food stamps. She lives alone. They said it was because she went from $250 a month to $623--A FOUR HUNDRED DOLLAR INCREASE. So she went from impossible to live on to still impossible to live on and they cut her benefits.

I think social services vary from county to county as well as state to state, but it still looks like Texas is more generous than my state.


well, I know it isn't fair, and I know it kind of stinks, but well....
ya know it's all for the sake of the children, right???
they don't care about single adults...they care about children.



posted on Jul, 19 2008 @ 08:47 AM
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Reading this thread, I can see some of "get it," and some do not. Let be be clear. First off, I agree that some people take advantage of the Welfare system. that being said, let us look at a case file, mine. I was an over the road trucker, hauling corn syrup and food products for seven years. In 1985 I had a roll-over crash in the semi that separated my spine and broke my neck in three places. I went from making $100,000 a year to living on social security. Get a job, you say? I would be happy to have a job. Many people would. Let alone being a truck driver, I am also a trained automobile mechanic. I cannot bend over a fender anymore, or twist my back into shapes Mother Nature never intended either. I can hardly sit or stand sometimes.

I had to go on Welfare so my family could eat. I have been on it for years, in two different states. I have seen it all in these places, and believe me, most people would work if they could. There is a trap built in with Welfare. That trap was exposed in the original post. If a person on Welfare wants to improve their life by buying something better, a car, a washing machine, a new TV, they must be careful, and they must save in cash, not a bank account that the Welfare can see. Recently I needed a car, mine was done, engine shot, and too expensive and difficult to fix. (Nissian Sentra) So I saved up $1000 to buy a new car for my family of 5.
When I bought the car, actually a van, I got the seller to say I only paid $50 for it, it actually cost $700. The Welfare never got wise. Is this a fraud? I don't think so. these people follow rules and guidelines set forth by the state, and even though they sympathize with a person, they have to follow the rules. I can't even get a public transportation ride to my heart and back doctor in another city, because I "make too much money" on S.S. and have a spend down. After monthly bills, I have about $35 a day to live on. Period. the only extra money comes from saving aluminum cans for recycling, and repairing to occasional computer for cash.

I hate being on Welfare, and Social Security... both are part of a corrupt government and both are criminal in nature. I would much rather have a regular job, where I could make some real money based on my skills. Trouble is, some day I can't get out of bed, and some days I poop out during the day, and sometimes I am in the hospital for several days at a time. Anyone want to give me a job?



posted on Jul, 19 2008 @ 01:54 PM
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reply to post by autowrench
 


Completely unrelated..I am sorry you got injured to the point of not being able to perform certain tasks. Maybe there is a job you can do that your good at that lets you sit or something..if not I as a taxpayer have no problem helping someone like you....WANTS TO WORK...but physically cannot....

This woman has NO physical problem...hence..NO EXCUSE!!



posted on Jul, 19 2008 @ 02:00 PM
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Originally posted by slackerwire
Why is an adult only making 5 bucks per hour? Minimum wage isn't mean to be enough to live on, it is an entry level wage designed for people with zero job skills, which is why you see teenagers manning most of the positions that get paid minimum wage.


My part of the country is in Appalachia. A person down here is lucky to get $5.00 an hour. There used to be a number of plants but almost all have closed and moved to Mexico or overseas, leaving their former employees to work at McDonald's or convenience stores, as aides in nursing homes (for which you do need some training and experience) etc. where there isn't much future. I know retirees with much previous experience who work as greeters at WalMart. I know bank tellers and phone bank operators, secretaries and retail workers who get minimum wage.

One of the most popular courses of study at the community college where I teach is nursing, because it pays more than minimum wage (I get paid well below the national average, but that's another story). There are plenty of of people down here with skills and experience who are working at or slightly above minimum wage.

The popular conception is that people with any intelligence or skills should be able to earn at least a comfortable living wage, but that's just a popular conception. We live in a service economy now.

[edit on 19-7-2008 by Sestias]

[edit on 19-7-2008 by Sestias]



posted on Jul, 19 2008 @ 02:10 PM
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Originally posted by rcwj75
reply to post by autowrench

This woman has NO physical problem...hence..NO EXCUSE!!


There was nothing in the book I cited that said Ms. Capetillo had no physical problen, or how many kids she had. For all I know she might have had a disability like autowrench.



posted on Jul, 19 2008 @ 02:39 PM
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Originally posted by Sestias
reply to post by dawnstar
 

I know someone who gets $623 a month and only $15 in food stamps. She lives alone. They said it was because she went from $250 a month to $623--A FOUR HUNDRED DOLLAR INCREASE. So she went from impossible to live on to still impossible to live on and they cut her benefits.

I think social services vary from county to county as well as state to state, but it still looks like Texas is more generous than my state.


I live in WI, my household can only get $10.00 of food stamps and our combined income is 1,920 a month, take away $500 for mortage, about 400 for utilityies, 100-200 for food a month, we spend about $300.00 in gas in a month alone, the rest for insurance, then the rest goes into an account for property taxes. We can't save even if we wanted to. Out of the 100.00 a week I get from my job, 50.00 dollars goes into the gas tank every week.

My Grandma gets $20.00 and she has $500.00 to live on, and my Dad gets 10.00 and he has $700 to live on.





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