Iranian President Says No War With U.S., Israel!, page 15

reply to post by Ownification

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It makes no difference to me if you go around ignorant the rest of your life.

No, religion is not just a bunch of ideas, that is like saying that a pile of wood is a building, or that a building is a home.

Oh yeah, Hitler wasn't voted into power, he came into power through a military coop. After Hitler took over, then he held a mock election.

nuff said

reply to post by poet1b

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I quoted and backed up your personal attacks. Blaming someone for your behaviour isn't growing up.


Also you should try and practise what you preach and be less ignorant.

Get back on topic, this is my second time saying this. sort it out now

reply to post by Ownification

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Don't give him the time anymore, He blames me for his own behaviour, he blames you for something else, and he blames Islam for America invading Iraq

His opinions are insane and whacko. Religion has nothing to do with it. Relgion is nothing to do with the war on anything.


Relgion is used as an excuse for the behaviour of the the United States of America's actions over the last god how many years. Everything and anything on these war threads are constantly filled with biased absurd excuses for war

Bottom line, there is no excuse for war. There is no excuse for voilence.

Originally posted by poet1b
reply to post by Ownification

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It makes no difference to me if you go around ignorant the rest of your life.

No, religion is not just a bunch of ideas, that is like saying that a pile of wood is a building, or that a building is a home.

nuff said

Ignorant wow....

I gave you a full explanation of how religion is a bunch of ideas I guess I need about 5 more paragraph to get it in to your thick head.

"that is like saying that a pile of wood is a building, or that a building is a home."
You are confusing your self, a religion is a collection of ideas as I said previously and I explained why, I mean for god sakes I even gave you the definition of idea, and also the definition of cognition. Everything a human being think about is an idea, even science is an idea, a computer system is an idea, so how the hell is religion not an idea. Is not religion the product of human reasoning?? And what is the definition of idea?? Here it is again:
"the content of cognition; the main thing you are thinking about"
Here is cognition again:
"mental functions such as the ability to think, reason, and remember."
Explain to me how the hell is religion not a collection of ideas based on these two definitions. What, because a pile of wood doesn't make a building?? lolxx your confusing yourself man.

"Oh yeah, Hitler wasn't voted into power, he came into power through a military coop. After Hitler took over, then he held a mock election."
OK Germany was a Democratic state, I told you this before but your thick head doesn't seem to get it. There was no coup, at least from what I know, he made some deals in the background to get to power.

Critics of democracy often claim that Hitler was democratically elected to power. This is untrue. Hitler never had the popular votes to become Chancellor of Germany, and the only reason he got the job was because the German leaders entered into a series of back-room deals. Some claim that Hitler's rise was nonetheless legal under the German system. The problem is that what was "legal" under the German system would not be considered legal under a truer and better-working democracy. In a democracy along the lines of the United States or Great Britain, Hitler could have never risen to power.

Now this is exactly what I am saying, if a Muslim does something unIslamic, it does not reflect Islam's stand on that issue, the quote I'm showing you states the same exact thing, saying that even though Germany was a Democratic state, the way Hitler came to power does not in any way reflect Democracies stand on that issue. I have said this before, I gave you how many examples but still you don't get it.

And by the way ignorance is a bless, so stay ignorant if you want to live a happy life, but there is no room for ignorance in this forum that's why I'm here writing this. If you are ignorant you don't feel responsible for the atrocities which are happening around the world, but if you are like most members here in ATS you feel guilty and responsible because of how much you know.


[edit on 25-7-2008 by Ownification]

reply to post by Ownification

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What you have succeeded in explaining is that the subject matter at hand is completely over your head.

See, the problem with too many Muslims is that they are doing exactly what Islam tells them to do by oppressing their women and carrying out honor killings, and all the other barbaric practices that they engage in. The problems with Muslims is that they are too serious about Islam and Islamic law.

Hitler was not a democrat in any form shape or manner. Hitler over threw democracy in Germany and instated himself as one of the most ruthless dictators of all time.

Originally posted by poet1b
reply to post by Ownification

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What you have succeeded in explaining is that the subject matter at hand is completely over your head.

See, the problem with too many Muslims is that they are doing exactly what Islam tells them to do by oppressing their women and carrying out honor killings, and all the other barbaric practices that they engage in. The problems with Muslims is that they are too serious about Islam and Islamic law.

Hitler was not a democrat in any form shape or manner. Hitler over threw democracy in Germany and instated himself as one of the most ruthless dictators of all time.

OH MY GOD, you are either very dumb or very good at debating. You have completely ignored the massive paragraph I wrote, it's a good tactic

As I said hundreds of times before, judge Islam based on Islam, why can't you go to Google and bring me a verse from the Quran which justifies honor killing?? Why can't you bring me a verse which justifies war without provacation?? Why can't you bring me a verse which justifies the killing of innocence in war or outside the boundaries of war?? How hard is that??

All those paragraph, Jesus Christ lolxx, Mind The Universe was right, holy crap I'm wasting my time.

All those paragraphs of explanation and finally we are in the same page. Now you are judging Islam based on Islam but out of ignorace cause you don't know what Islam preaches. umm The Hitler thing just forget about it, I know now that you either don't understand or you do understand and you are prettending that you don't. I'm sure you are not that stupid than again who knows

Originally posted by DimensionalDetective
reply to post by ItsTheQuestion

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Right back at ya.

Do you buy the propaganda coming from the pathological liars in the whitehouse who lied a bare minimum of 935 TIMES in the lead up and aftermath of the Iraq debacle?

Apparently you do.

I like your posts, you find good story's. But you BOTH (you and the poster you were replying) to, have a point. The answer is we don't have all the answers. We know the u.s white house lies. ok. Do you believe the Iranian gov't are saints? probably not. Does this make him a liar? i would lean that he is telling the truth, so i would side with you, however unless we are within his close circle of intelligence we can only argue who's opinion is more right, and that seems inherently foolish.

reply to post by Ownification

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I don't think you have a clue what religion is and how it relates to peoples life styles, and how they conduct themselves. I read your paragraph, and it is clear to me that you really don't see the big picture. Quoting the Koran would be a vain effort, unless you can demonstrate that you have a realistic conception of what religion is. If you don't understand me when I say that a pile of lumber is not a house or a building as it applies to your claim that religion is just a bunch of ideas, then your lack of understanding of structure, of how ideas are put together or form a philosophy, and philosophies to from religions, then you will not understand how different people interpret the Koran in different ways, and how religions influence people in different ways. If you can not recognize the things that people do in the name of religion, and that religions lead to certain types of behavior, then this subject is hopelessly over your head.

If you can write a paragraph that demonstrates you have a reasonable understanding of how religious beliefs affect peoples lives, then maybe can can carry this conversation forward.

Originally posted by poet1b
reply to post by Ownification

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I don't think you have a clue what religion is and how it relates to peoples life styles, and how they conduct themselves. I read your paragraph, and it is clear to me that you really don't see the big picture. Quoting the Koran would be a vain effort, unless you can demonstrate that you have a realistic conception of what religion is. If you don't understand me when I say that a pile of lumber is not a house or a building as it applies to your claim that religion is just a bunch of ideas, then your lack of understanding of structure, of how ideas are put together or form a philosophy, and philosophies to from religions, then you will not understand how different people interpret the Koran in different ways, and how religions influence people in different ways. If you can not recognize the things that people do in the name of religion, and that religions lead to certain types of behavior, then this subject is hopelessly over your head.

If you can write a paragraph that demonstrates you have a reasonable understanding of how religious beliefs affect peoples lives, then maybe can can carry this conversation forward.

I think I do know how religion affects ones lifestyle mainly because I was once a religious fanatic. OK once again let me try to make this clearer, a law set by a state can be interpreted differently by different groups of people, there are many different types of Democracy in the world, are we in the same page now?? Since there is different understanding of Democracy in the world does that in any ways reflect Democracies stance on different issues. Democracy is an idea which should be judged based on it's idea, based on what it states, not based on what people think it says.

Women's right in Islam is very clear in the Quran anyone can go and read it, unless you don't want to. If a Muslim beats up his wife or does honour killings does not reflect Islam's stance on abuse and killing of innocence, I have said this before. If Hitler came to power un-Democratically does not reflect Democracies stance in anyway even though in the beginning of his campaign he claimed to be a Democratic individual. How else would he come to power?

I think I now know where you are coming from, you are confusing Islam with culture, your saying there is abuse against women in certain Muslim countries which I stated is against Islam but it's in their culture. Similarly there is abuse in the Western nations against women which does not reflect the Western stance on women’s right but is in their culture so it's accepted even though the law does not allow it.

I don't think I can make it anymore clearer on how Islam is a bunch of ideas. This is the reason why your example: "a pile of lumber is not a house or a building", is incorrect; a building is constructed from different materials not just pile of lumber but religion is created from thinking, reasoning and remembering (learning from the past). Why do we exist for example is a reasoning, which if you relate to the definition of idea, it goes well. Your example is out of place and is pretty much confusing you.

reply to post by Ownification

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Sorry, but you are wrong. The actions of Muslims display how they interpret the Koran, and the words of Muhammad. You can claim that your interpretation is the correct one, but the reality is that no one has the correct interpretation. Everyone gets out of their religious beliefs what they choose, and the actions of Muslims are what determine the general interpetation, and that is one of a very barbaric religion.

Religion is far more than a bunch of ideas, it is a doctrine that dictates how people live their lives based on the philosophy developed by those who control the religion.

Here is a closer reality. The primary method by which the people of the failed cultures of this world were punished is through religious doctrine, in which those who claimed to be prophets or other forms of representatives of God, or actual gods themselves, such as the Japanese Emporer up until the end of WW II, claimed devine knowledge of what is right and what is wrong, or essentially that their word was the word of God, giving them absolute authority over all others. This position that these people claimed gave them the power to do whatever they wanted to whomever, under the excuse that it was best for their eternal souls, and all of humanity as well. Do you recognize how much abuse these concepts allow to be committed? To this very day, Muslims are raised from childhood, with the very strict belief that they must give their daily prayers, which begin with their swearing loyalty to Muhammad as having been the voice of God.

Originally posted by poet1b
reply to post by Ownification

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Sorry, but you are wrong. The actions of Muslims display how they interpret the Koran, and the words of Muhammad. You can claim that your interpretation is the correct one, but the reality is that no one has the correct interpretation. Everyone gets out of their religious beliefs what they choose, and the actions of Muslims are what determine the general interpetation, and that is one of a very barbaric religion.

Religion is far more than a bunch of ideas, it is a doctrine that dictates how people live their lives based on the philosophy developed by those who control the religion.

Here is a closer reality. The primary method by which the people of the failed cultures of this world were punished is through religious doctrine, in which those who claimed to be prophets or other forms of representatives of God, or actual gods themselves, such as the Japanese Emporer up until the end of WW II, claimed devine knowledge of what is right and what is wrong, or essentially that their word was the word of God, giving them absolute authority over all others. This position that these people claimed gave them the power to do whatever they wanted to whomever, under the excuse that it was best for their eternal souls, and all of humanity as well. Do you recognize how much abuse these concepts allow to be committed? To this very day, Muslims are raised from childhood, with the very strict belief that they must give their daily prayers, which begin with their swearing loyalty to Muhammad as having been the voice of God.

Soooooooooo if you are going to judge Islam based on it's interpretation than woudn't the same apply to the ideas you support, let's say umm Democracy? Socialists have their own interpretation of Democracy, whose interpretation should we judge Democracy by?

Islam has Quran, Quran says Quran is for all times and no other text. If the Quran clearly states women's rights than why not judge it based on the text? If we judge things based on interpretations used by different groups of people than their is a problem, the problem is that every idea in the world would be wrong. For example ideas which governs our economy, people or state as a whole would be incorrect because of it's incorrect use by certain groups as you put it. You are basically saying that nothing is correct, everything is wrong because we can interpret things differently? Doesn't make sense.

I stand with my point on religion being an idea, a complex idea does not in any way mean it's not an idea. Yes religion is a complex idea, but still an idea, or a collection of ideas. Philosophy is also an idea, a very complex one.

You are saying people were punished by Religion, but the fact of the matter is that WWI and WWII were both started through Democratic countries who interpreted Democracy differently. Your interpretation of Democracy is no better than mine as you put it. In Democracy according to socialist interpretation their can be dictatorship for example Cuba. Their were millions of deaths in these two great wars, does that reflect the face of Democracy? Should we judge Democracy based on the individuals who did these tragedies yet claimed to follow Democracy?? Hitler as an example. Every idea has it's good followers and it's bad followers, and it's followers act differently based on hudreds of different reasons, for example his family, his character and so on and so forth (not just religion). For instance let us think about an individual who has lost his whole family under tons of American bombs, let's say he is a Muslim. How he would react under deep anger does not reflect Islam or Islam's teachings because he wouldn't be able to think properly or react properly base on Islamic teachings.

I'm not in any ways defending Islam or it's teachings but what I'm trying say is that if you are going to judge Islam, judge it based on Islam not its bad seeds. If you do that than maybe, just maybe Muslims around the world would agree on changing their minds on reform, I'm sure they wouldn't even think about reform when people like you are insulting ideas which they dearly believe in.

[edit on 30-7-2008 by Ownification]

reply to post by Ownification

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Actions, practices, customs, and life style are what determine how the people of any religion conduct themselve. I don't care how you interpret the Koran, this debate has been done too many times to count, and isn't worth the time.

Supression of womens rights is wide spread though out Muslim culture, and is in fact a characteristic of the religous practices of Muslims. You can claim that this is not in following with the Muslim religion baed on your personal interpretations of the Koran, but the fact is that a majority of Muslims interpret the Koran in the way that allows them to treat women like property. Whether or not you will ever agree with it, there are numeous passages in the Koran that justify these religious practices, even if you choose to interpret them differently. Your narrow perspective on religion, and your failure to understand how religion is used to control peoples lives really limits your ability to understand what you are reading in the first place.

If you want to argue that having women cover themselves from head to toe, not allowing women to go anywhere without a male member of the family to escort them, preventing women from attending universities, from holding jobs are not in line with the Koran, I'm not the person you need to bring your argument to.

Originally posted by poet1b
reply to post by Ownification

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Actions, practices, customs, and life style are what determine how the people of any religion conduct themselve. I don't care how you interpret the Koran, this debate has been done too many times to count, and isn't worth the time.

Supression of womens rights is wide spread though out Muslim culture, and is in fact a characteristic of the religous practices of Muslims. You can claim that this is not in following with the Muslim religion baed on your personal interpretations of the Koran, but the fact is that a majority of Muslims interpret the Koran in the way that allows them to treat women like property. Whether or not you will ever agree with it, there are numeous passages in the Koran that justify these religious practices, even if you choose to interpret them differently. Your narrow perspective on religion, and your failure to understand how religion is used to control peoples lives really limits your ability to understand what you are reading in the first place.

If you want to argue that having women cover themselves from head to toe, not allowing women to go anywhere without a male member of the family to escort them, preventing women from attending universities, from holding jobs are not in line with the Koran, I'm not the person you need to bring your argument to.

I guess this is going no where, I can't get through to you. My point is clear from the beggining that you can't judge an idea based on it's bad seeds, you never comment on Democracy and its bad seeds. I never claimed religion is not used to control people's lives yet I never claimed Democracy is not used to control people's lives as well, at least understand that.

The least you could have done was to comment on Social Democracy which allows dictatorship, but since this is going nowhere let's leave it at that.

You claim that Muslim women are treated like property and you relate that to Islam yet you don't even bring a passage to support that. I can also make a claim that Western women are treated as property ammm PIMPSTERS as you may have heard, what does that reflect? Since I can't provide any evidence that Western law supports this claim I won't bother making the proclamation. Get what I mean??

Glad we had this discussion but theirs no conclusions so oooo

reply to post by Ownification

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Yep, this conversation is going nowere.

Yes, democracy is not always perfect, but that is not the subject of this thread, although we drifted off that long ago. You continue to miss the big picture.

While there are times when democracy does the wrong thing, these are exceptions, and democratic principles generally work to correct those mistakes.

The way that Muslims treat their women as property is not an occasional problem, it is the standard throughout the Muslim culture. You can try and pretend this is not the reality, but you are only fooling yourself.

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