Do you people, that don't agree with the war or won't support OUR troops have any idea of why you are able to do so? The reason you can state your opinion is someone at somtime gave years of thier lives, or gave their very lives to ensure that future generations would be able to keep the rights that they had, and future generations could develop new rights.

Agreed.
And I have asked everybody how the current war is accomplishing this and haven't got an answer. It's because its not. Its not protecting anything.

Last round of posts I made I mentioned the people on my fathers side that served in war. My cousin, the son of one of them, is addicted to heroin. When we started the war in Afghanistan we claimed the reason was to shut off the talibans financial resources by shutting down their control of the poppy fields. They had 90% of the market at that time we claimed.

7 years later there is more heroin on the streets than there was before. that means:

They never had 90% of the global poppy supply and we attacked under false pretenses.
OR
We did not accomplish the mission in 7 years (and claimed we did).
OR
We took over the fields.

None of those scenarios are acceptable and none of those scenarios help preserve my freedom in any way shape or form. I could go over a similar list with the war in Iraq, but I would like someone who claims my freedoms are being protected by an illegal immoral war are being protected to answer.

[edit on 10-7-2008 by jprophet420]

These guys ain´t ¨serving¨ their country. They are servants to a bunch of ambitious & sadistic clowns who´ve lost all sense of reality.

I´m not into killing residents and calling it collateral. Eighty thousand of them´collaterals, cowboy.

I´m NOT into GENOCIDE.

I´m into TRUTH.


M.

Originally posted by justamomma

i did not support my brother signing up and fighting in the previous pres bush's agenda filled war. i sent him care packages, wrote often, and told how much i loved him and missed him,

You did support him, you showed you loved and still cared about him even though you didn't agree with the decision he made. It was the human thing to do!

The individual soldier is Not responsible for this mess, if they would not have joined there would have been a draft. The corporate government is responsible and if you would like to flame those responsible I'll be right there with you.

in response to LDragonFire:


"You did support him, you showed you loved and still cared about him even though you didn't agree with the decision he made. It was the human thing to do!"

i guess it all depends on what definition you are using as support. to support a soldier to me seems to be in agreeance w/ what they are doing. i did not support him in his decision. what i was doing by sending him those things was simply loving him. i would only have supported him had he not been so "weak" and accepted his situation like a man by standing up to speak against all the wrongs he had witnessed.




"The individual soldier is Not responsible for this mess"

they are as much responsible as the voter who voted in the person(s) who helped create this mess. they must learn to suck it up and take responsibility for their choices......... the only way that the soldier can say he is no longer responsible at this point is to quit participating in it and speak against it. i understand there are consequences in an action such as i just mentioned, but hell, they put themselves in the position. sad, but true.

the soldiers that have taken a stance against this war and have suffered for it... well, these are the soldiers that not only have my support, but have my respect and admiration.

i would rather face all the demons of hell (although god forbid this happening lol) than to sell out my principles, my values, and what i know to be right just for safety's sake.

[edit on 10-7-2008 by justamomma]

The talk of the individual soldier dropping there weapons in a war zone will just get them killed and or imprisoned. Once they are in service and are here in the states if they rose up against this administration they will be killed and or imprisoned. Why would you ask so much from them?

They've had 7 years to think about it. Theres no one in service now that didn't have the choice to serve in the current war.

My Great Grandfather was killed in WWI, my grandfather lost a finger on the supply line to Russia in WWII, my father was in the service during Vietnam he was a only son so he guarded nuke missiles in Europe. I was very close to joining right before Gulf War I, but frankly I was making much more money than the military paid so I didn't join.

My attempt at this thread was to put a human face to some vets I know, that I like and respect, that have endured some really bad stuff.

I have failed.

Members responses have varied from it's there own fault to they should just go out and kill themselves to they are responsible for this war and they are responsible for the direction this country has taken.

We have heard from active or former military and they understand what these people have gone threw. We have heard from anti-war people that seem to be just as radical and blood thirsty as our current administration, we have heard from cowards, and we have heard from people that just don't seem to have much in the way of human compassion or caring.

So many here can't get there head around the fact that yes this war is wrong, but these soldiers that are enduring so much are soon going to be our neighbors, co workers, friends, husbands, boyfriends, But really they always where.

My attempt at this thread was to put a human face to some vets I know, that I like and respect, that have endured some really bad stuff.

I have failed.

Because respecting veterans who have fought in past wars that have bought us our freedom and supporting our troops that are in the current situation are 2 completely different scenarios.

Originally posted by jprophet420

My attempt at this thread was to put a human face to some vets I know, that I like and respect, that have endured some really bad stuff.

I have failed.

Because respecting veterans who have fought in past wars that have bought us our freedom and supporting our troops that are in the current situation are 2 completely different scenarios.

The Mexican American war was about Expansionisms.

The Spanish American War had nothing to do with our freedoms.

WWI had nothing to do with our freedom.

The Korean and Vietnam were wars against the spread of Communism.

The Gulf War I and II and Afghanistan IMHO are about Oil resources.

So I have listed 8 wars throughout our history that had nothing to do with our personal freedom. Plus Grenada, Panama, Balkans

The American Revolution

The War of 1812

The Civil War

WWII

And 4 that had anything to do with our personal freedoms.



[edit on 10-7-2008 by LDragonFire]

There is a lot of bickering and name calling in here; there is a lot of ignorance and hatefulness as well. What many of you seem to be forgetting is that there are many sides to this story just as there are many sides to everything in life.
I hate this war just as I will hate all the wars that will undoubtedly come because of it. 9/11 was the catalyst for a chain of events so terrible and convoluted that none of us will be truly prepared to deal with its outcome. We cannot even begin to imagine or understand the magnitude or horror of what is just around the bend.
Did the soldiers know what they were really doing when they enlisted to "defend" us in 2001? No, they thought, like all of us, that there truly was a threat to our freedom in the Middle East. Did the soldiers before them know? No, they did not. You cannot blame them for their ignorance in those early days of our downfall. They did what they thought was right. They were going to fight in order to defend people they did not even know. You and I. At least that is what they thought back then. Can you blame them for that? Can you blame them for being fooled by something so much larger than themselves? Can you? I can't.
I support the troops that have survived since 2001 and know the real reason that their friends are dying around them. I support the troops that refuse to go back on another tour even though it might cost them a Dishonorable Discharge. I support the troops who don't pull the trigger in combat when they can get away with it. I support the troops that have no other course of action but kill or be killed. Some of them are simply fighting to survive now. All of us would do the same if we were in their situation. If you were in the Armed Forces with a wife (who may or may not be there when you get back) and kids back home would you stop fighting, receive a court martial, and rot and jail while leaving your family to fend for themselves? If I was in that situation, I couldn't do that either. What I could do was try every conceivable way to get out of those countries and kill as few people as humanly possible to ensure my survival. I highly doubt many of you would have the constitution to do anything more noble, even though some of you spout off this Idealist poppy-cock. Put yourself on their playing field. Listen to the bullets tearing through the air. Listen to the bombs and the flames. Listen to the screams of the dead and dying, some of whom may be your friends. Get on your knees like they do and pray to whatever callous god you place your faith in to make it all go away. Worry about your friends and family "back home" and then tell me you'd have the moral fortitude to take a bullet, or a court martial before you'd fight. Bollocks. We are human, not faerie tale heroes.
Unfortunately, everyone of us has to play the Elite's game on some scale for right now. Even you and I, and especially the soldiers. Don't blame the ones who are doing everything they can to survive in order to come home and see their loved ones and stay there. You want to know who to blame? I'll tell you who to blame.
First, blame the monsters in Washington, the corporations, and the banks, and the churches.
Second, blame Joe Fuggin' Six-Pack with his beer and shotgun who doesn't have one iota of intelligence, is incapable of critical thinking or creative rationalization, believes every bleeding lie that is spoon-fed to him on the tube, is close-minded and devoutly RELIGIOUS, and would do anything the Government or Bible told him to do.
Third, blame the idiots who are enlisting today for the same reasons you blame Joe Six-Pack and for the added sin of just wanting to kill stuff (like the bastards killing puppies and tormenting Iraqi children).
Finally, look in the mirror and blame that person for asking someone else to do something you yourself are to afraid to do.
There is Gray in between Black and White. All of us walk the shadows at one point or other.

(double post) ummmmm semper fi.

[edit on 10-7-2008 by USMC-oorah]

Originally posted by justamomma



i guess it all depends on what definition you are using as support. to support a soldier to me seems to be in agreeance w/ what they are doing. i did not support him in his decision. what i was doing by sending him those things was simply loving him. i would only have supported him had he not been so "weak" and accepted his situation like a man by standing up to speak against all the wrongs he had witnessed.

So you consider these people weak? Maybe they are, and so they should be shown no compassion? They should be spoken of with contempt? Because they are too 'weak' or too stupid to 'do the right thing'?

I'm glad you are confident in your ability to show the courage needed in the same situation, you are obviously superior to these people, good for you!


"You are weak, you are stupid, you are a coward, I feel nothing but contempt and disgust for you (and love of course.") Sound about right?


You've heard that saying?.... The things you dislike in other people are the things you dislike in yourself. Think about it, and maybe you could find a little empathy....

"So you consider these people weak? "

well, the part that you chose to quote from my post was specifically referring to my brother. and yes, i did see him as "weak". anyone not willing to taking responsibility for their actions preferring rather the easy way out (whether it is suicide or placing the blame onto others) is weak IMHO. he left behind a wife and a daughter, not to mention a family that loved and still loves him VERY much. he was not concerned w/ the effects his actions would have on those he claimed to love (and by using the word "claim," i do not mean that he DIDN'T love us, just that he loved hating himself more, if that is understandable).

i am not callous. it took me a long time to come to the place where i accept that he made a decision to end it and that, like it or not, i must respect his right to have made that choice. i could sit here and blame the former pres bush and those that voted for him (which would include my parents) until i am blue in the face, but that doesn't change the fact that HE MADE THE DECISION.




"They should be spoken of with contempt?"

you misunderstand where my contempt is aimed at. my contempt is not aimed toward the soldiers as human beings and their right to make a choice for their life as they see fit, but rather my contempt lies in the placing of the blame of their choices unto other ppl. you make a choice, you must be willing to accept responsibility for any and all possible outcomes of that choice. if you don't like the way things play out, then do something about it. there is nothing i can do for these soldiers unless they take the first step and right their wrongs. should they do that, if it is someone i know or even don't know, then they have my full support, my presence, and my voice if they want that help from me.


"Because they are too 'weak' or too stupid to 'do the right thing'?"

i have never called any of them "stupid" (if i have, then it was purely unintentional and would love for it to pointed out so that i can correct it to reflect how i really view it). there is a difference btw stupidity and ignorance. i believe, as i have said, that they are VERY capable of finding out the truth for themselves. stupidity is not an excuse many of them can use, unfortunately. if they choose to blindly follow orders, they are still accountable for making that choice and still have no where to place the blame for their situation accept on themselves.

and i do not believe they are "too weak" to do the right thing.... i think they are "weak" BC they don't do the right thing.





I'm glad you are confident in your ability to show the courage needed in the same situation, you are obviously superior to these people, good for you!


i would not place myself in the same situation and the situations that i have been in due to ignorance, i blame no one but myself. i do not see myself as being superior to anyone, but i also see no one being superior to me. i will take responsibility for myself and my choices (and have), but i refuse to take responsibility or feel sorry for ppl who, instead of taking responsibility and doing the right thing, continue on in something that is not right and then turn around and point the finger at everyone else.

i understand from personal experience how much it sucks to be abandoned by the one you love and the one you should have been able to go to when facing such horrible things. i may not, at the present time, be faced w/ looking over my shoulder constantly in fear of being shot at, but there are dangers at our doorstep and yes, as a woman, it would be great to have the one i once trusted be here in helping me make decisions about what to do......... but he is not. i have to suck it up and face my situation as is. i spent my time mourning "what was" and then rather than complaining about the cards i was dealt, started figuring out how to play these cards.

i feel sympathy for them (which you might know if you had read all my posts), but to expect me or anyone else to take the responsibility for their choices is just plain ridiculous.




"You've heard that saying?.... The things you dislike in other people are the things you dislike in yourself. Think about it, and maybe you could find a little empathy.... "


i have heard that saying and like it and put it to use quite often. however, this does not apply in this particular case. i take responsibility for the choices i have made and the circumstances those choices brought about. i do not go around placing blame on everyone and everything else. there was a time that i did do that, but then i entered the real world and realized that it was time to grow up.

i don't need to empathize w/ these men being abandoned by the ones they love bc i can sympathize. however, the best advice i got from anyone during those first few weeks after he left was "suck it up and deal w/ what you have to do now." to you that may sound harsh, but to me, i saw the truth in those words and it has been the catalyst for me in getting my life to where it is now, 2 years later. just because they are soldiers doesn't mean that they are hurting anymore or scared anymore than i have been and am still. but it is what it is and not what is was. mourn the past, take responsibility, learn from it, and move on.

you don't gain my respect just because your life may be hard right now. you gain my respect bc you deal w/ what you have, take personal responsibility and not blame anyone else, and then go about making things right and learn that the choices you make will either come back to bite you in the arse or pat you on the back. if more ppl could do this, we wouldn't be in quite the dire situation we are in today.





"You are weak, you are stupid, you are a coward, I feel nothing but contempt and disgust for you (and love of course.") Sound about right?


sort of....... the weak part i explained. i never called anyone stupid. and someone who would rather blame others for their choices to ease their conscience is a coward. and yes, my brother was a coward when he shot himself. do i love him? yes yes yes!!! but i AM angry w/ that choice considering that this was his legacy he was leaving for his (at the time) 5 yr old daughter, who was the one to find him btw. angry actually doesn't even describe the overwhelming feeling i have when thinking about it. however, it was his choice, no one elses.



edited to add: i do not feel contempt or disgust toward anyone, but i do feel contempt and disgust at the fact that most would rather blame others for the situations they are in rather than take responsibility and deal with it. i am known amoung my friends as being very compassionate, but my compassion will fade if someone would rather continue to blame others for their situations rather than dealing w/ what is as it is.




[edit on 10-7-2008 by justamomma]

[edit on 10-7-2008 by justamomma]

Originally posted by Double Eights
Okay, for those of you whom don't support the troops, what do you suggest they do to garner your support? Quit?

If they quit, they will will be dishonerably discharged and put in prison. That right there will absolutely crush their futures. Good look trying to find a quality job with a Dishonerable Discharge on your record, and enjoy your stay in the State Pen.

If they all quit, who's gonna put them in prison? The local sheriff?

Yes, they should all quit and stop doing the bidding of the Zionist village idiot. It is only then should the American people support them.