The terrifying moment armed police held down an innocent man on train and put a gun to his head

The terrifying moment armed police held down an innocent man on train and put a gun to his head

www.dailymail.c o.uk

Guns pointing at his head, a train passenger is forced to lie face-down on the platform in a dramatic police swoop.

Officers then dragged him to his feet and frogmarched him away to be searched and interrogated.

Minutes later, however, he was released without charge after it became clear that they had seized entirely the wrong man.

(visit the link for the full news article)


Related News Links:
www.timesonline.co.uk
www.thisislondon.co.uk

This reeks of the Charles De Menezes incident. Luckily no one was hurt this time.

Is this what Britain is coming to?
Is this the slow introduction of a police state?

This man must have been terrified at receiving such treatment. All because of a case of mistaken identity. Surely the police must have to be 100% certain that someone is armed and dangerous before pulling a gun at a member of the public? Apparently not anymore.

Personally, i lose more and more trust in the police each day. I sympathise with this man, who must have been totally shaken by this ordeal.

www.dailymail.c o.uk
(visit the link for the full news article)

In this situation, you never know what the jumpy, nervous guy behind the trigger is going to do.

And if they had not chased him because they were not sure and he had blown a train full of people up you would have still blamed the police. If he DID have a bomb then you would have blamed them for not shooting him and giving him a chance to trigger it.



They can not win, BUT this way they lose and everyone is still alive.

Two year's ago I was on a train from Manchester to Milton Keynes and for a strange reason we stopped outside Milton Keynes, the driver kept repeating that it was signal failure. I was called by the person giving me a lift and he told me there was a huge amount of police vehicles and officers outside the station, a little later he called me again and told me they had a very suspicious person on board the train I was on.

Rumours started to spread through the carriages about a man forcing people out of their seat's and moving forward through the carriages slowly, the driver informed us that the signal was fixed and we were to continue to the station.

I exited the train immediately and on the way out I looked into the carriages as I walked to the station exit (I was on the last carriage so I had to walk past five or so other carriages) in the second carriage I saw armed officers approach a man in his seat. I don't remember what ethnicity he was, but I'm quite confident that he wasn't white. He had a little tangle with one of the armed officers and then he got hit several times in the face by the butt of H&K MP5, as I left the station I was held behind to give details in case I would be needed as a witness.

Day's afterwards I looked for news on the event, I regularly checked the Milton Keynes official police force site, I checked all the national papers the next day and for a week after the event and there was na-da. There was a small mention of a man being released and not charged for a crime related to rail travel about a fortnight after on the police's site but it didn't confirm the date of the alleged offense, so I'm not sure if that was it.

But I was spooked, I thought it would have been mainstream news across the UK but it wasn't and still to this day I don't know why.

I wouldn't be surprised if these kind of incidents have happened more often than we have been informed of.

Just did a google news search and I found one tiny article in regards to the event, and just to warn you it is tiny.

BBC News Article

[edit on 8-7-2008 by -Klaus-]

Originally posted by umbr45
And if they had not chased him because they were not sure and he had blown a train full of people up you would have still blamed the police. If he DID have a bomb then you would have blamed them for not shooting him and giving him a chance to trigger it.

They can not win, BUT this way they lose and everyone is still alive.

But he didn't have a bomb, he didn't have a gun and he was an innocent person. So I should put up with the police doing this to innocent people, or me or my family because someone 'possibly' had a bomb? There wasn't even a mention of a bomb in this. Not everything is about terrorists you know.

The police have a hard job, no denying it, but that's no excuse for not going through the usual checks and being 100% sure before you point a gun at the back of someones head.

reply to post by -Klaus-


That's a pretty freaky story Klaus. The news report says he was Asian and 'thought to be acting suspicious' (I just love the 'thought to be' bit. That cracks me up).

It makes you think exactly who decides what 'acting suspicious' is. If I was to call the police and say 'Hey, there's an Asian guy acting suspicious on the train' would they just immediately send a load of armed police?

i live in Bournemouth and ride by the station pretty much daily. madness that something like this has happened, although there have been a few incidents here (like the alleged ricin plot) and security is usually pretty tight at certain times of the year due to the political party conferences they hold at the BIC.

Anyone know when they're holding the next big simulated transport terrorism exercise? That would be the day to not go to work as the chances of these 'terrorists' hehehee, doing exactly the same 'live' exercise is virtually assured (if we are to go on the last couple of times)!

Government backed Global Warming propaganda/fear mongering blaming ‘YOU’
Government terrorist created/heightened propaganda instilling fear and daily distruption
Government allowing Banking to enslave ‘YOU’
Now, Government allowing corporate world free reign to create food shortage propaganda instilling fear, and guess who will pick up the tab for this? (we need GM to save us – its coming)

I don't see a lot of obstacles in the way of total state control in the UK or US but another staged/orchestrated terror attack should do it!

As far as I can tell, the police acted responsibly. That's what they are there for. If there is no problem, he gets released.

reply to post by C.C.Benjamin


There's nothing responsible about acting on a whim, scaring a train full of people, pointing a loaded weapon at an unarmed and innocent man, then searching and detaining him. If that is being responsible, then damn it, I want to police to be irresponsible.

This is the UK, not the US. We have a tendancy to not poke guns at people unless we know it's the last resort. Or at least we used to until now.

Originally posted by Nammu
reply to post by C.C.Benjamin

 

There's nothing responsible about acting on a whim, scaring a train full of people, pointing a loaded weapon at an unarmed and innocent man, then searching and detaining him. If that is being responsible, then damn it, I want to police to be irresponsible.

This is the UK, not the US. We have a tendancy to not poke guns at people unless we know it's the last resort. Or at least we used to until now.

I'm a British citizen too, and boo #ing hoo. A bunch of train passengers got scared because there may have been a legitimate threat.

The police interviened, the situation was resolved, no-one died. Better they act for a false alarm than not act for a real one.

reply to post by C.C.Benjamin


You left out the part about acting on a whim, pointing a loaded weapon at and detaining an innocent man. The scaring a train full of people part was the lesser of those points. But hey, you're entitled to feel how you feel, we all are, and I respect your opinion . But acting this way has killed an innocent man before. If things like this occur then we're not far off it happening again.

I'd just rather they got it right before pulling a gun on anyone. If they're truely worried about the safety of the general public, surely they must have to guarantee they've got it right before pointing a gun at the general public.

One day that could turn out to be me or a member of my family, or yours.

reply to post by Nammu


I don't mean to sound rude but did you actually read the links you supplied?

Minutes later, however, he was released without charge after it became clear that they had seized entirely the wrong man.

The Bournemouth incident, captured on a passenger's mobile phone camera, came after armed officers were called to the station to arrest a suspect following a previous 'armed incident'.

A colleague travelling on the train wrongly identified the 21-year-old passenger as the wanted man in that case and tipped off colleagues.

They didn't really act on a whim, it was a case of misidentification of a dangerous fugitive.

ok sherlocks :

how do you tell if :

the bulge in a backpack is a bomb or a lunch box

the crease in a jacket is a side arm or a filofax

the lump in a pocket is a handgrenade or can of coke

20/20 hindsight is a wonderful tool - its also bloody ignorant

Originally posted by Nammu
This reeks of the Charles De Menezes incident. Luckily no one was hurt this time.

For exactly the reason you stated, this is nothing like the Charles De Menezes incident. In fact, the procedure appears entirely different.

Originally posted by Nammu
Is this what Britain is coming to?
Is this the slow introduction of a police state?

Lets put it this way, in other countries such as the USA or some European one's, you will ROUTINELY be faced with armed cops pointing there guns at you.

In the UK, it makes headline news when it happens.

See the difference? So no, it isn't a police state.

Originally posted by Nammu
This man must have been terrified at receiving such treatment. All because of a case of mistaken identity. Surely the police must have to be 100% certain that someone is armed and dangerous before pulling a gun at a member of the public? Apparently not anymore.

What planet are you from? Police only have to be suspicious of someone being armed before calling in the ARU's. They NEVER have to be 100% certain (and when can they be?). If they did have to wait until 100% certainty, then we'd have a lot more armed people on the streets as they wouldn't be able to properly investigate.

Originally posted by Nammu
Personally, i lose more and more trust in the police each day. I sympathise with this man, who must have been totally shaken by this ordeal.

Why? They didn't kill him, they didn't even haul him into custody. The whole thing was over in quite a quick time and he was released when they realised he was the wrong bloke. They are only human....

Reply to Marshall Ormus: I did read the link, of course, and a police officer. Ok, so maybe not exactly acting on a whim, but still acting in an overly agressively way to someone that they could not be sure was a threat. The police used to be able to handle dangerous suspects without pointing loaded guns at their heads. If they get a description of 'a young black male in his 20's, 6'2, wearing blue jeans, a black top and a rucksac' I hope that doesn't give them the right to hold guns to the heads of anyone that holds that description. They've been handling situations in public places like this for a long time absolutely fine with no issues before recent times. It's only recently we see things like this happen more and more.

Reply to ignorant_ape: Good point. It's very difficult to tell. So other procedures or ways of handling things have to come into play or they'd end up pointing guns at everyone all the time.

Reply to stumason: Thanks for contributing. I always like your posts I'm from Earth last time I checked, but sometimes I do wonder.....I agree they can never be 100% certain, but they had the processes and procedures in the past that meant they didn't have to deal with things in this way. It's only in recent years we see this more and more frequently. The police are fearful, the people are fearful, so therefore we accept them pointing guns more, when in previous years it would have been dealt with in a different manner. People haven't changed, but the way they handle people certainly is changing IMO.



[edit on 8-7-2008 by Nammu]

I'd feel quite secure if the cops did that to me. I'd just completely comply with their wishes, get down on the floor etc, and just state that who I am and that I have no problem cooperating fully with them.

That is, after all, why I pay my taxes.

In reply to Nammu.

No he didn't have either of those items...he WAS innocent after all.

But as I said, if he was the person they were looking for but they were not 100% sure and so tried to stop him with unnarmed police before he then killed many people. You would again blame the police.

I would like to see you rush toward someone you think is armed and then arest him, gun or no gun. They did not shoot and there is no lasting problems, I would rather be scared than dead...

Originally posted by Nammu
Reply to stumason: Thanks for contributing. I always like your posts

I'm from Earth last time I checked, but sometimes I do wonder.....I agree they can never be 100% certain, but they had the processes and procedures in the past that meant they didn't have to deal with things in this way. It's only in recent years we see this more and more frequently. The police are fearful, the people are fearful, so therefore we accept them pointing guns more, when in previous years it would have been dealt with in a different manner. People haven't changed, but the way they handle people certainly is changing IMO.

Firstly, thanks for the thank you and appreciation

Secondly, I do think times have changed. What with "terrorism" being a tad more than some pissed off paddy in a car (who is kind enough to usually give a warning too!) and many young people going around armed, the police are nervous when faced with such things.

Don't forget PC Sharon Beshenivsky, for example, who responded to an armed robbery, unarmed and only wearing a stab vest, to to be promptly shot dead on the spot.

Maybe, with hindsight, it does appear to be somewhat over the top. However, there is an inquiry by the IPC into the incident (as there is with EVERY armed situation involving police), so if there are any procedural changes needed, they will be made and we will know.