Something has changed, timeline?

Delete this post, was double post.

[edit on 30-8-2008 by amatrine]

That was weird. My post just disappeared. If this come up double sorry.

I was thinking, what if time was not linear, which I do not think it is anyway.

What if you are your mother, and your own child. You lived your mothers life, and now you are living the life of those consequences as your own child. You in the afterlife see both sides and gain perspective.

Wouldn't it be great if Hitler had to live the life of every Jew he killed?

Love your neighbor as yourself takes on a new meaning, because you may be loving yourself.


[edit on 30-8-2008 by amatrine]

reply to post by amatrine


The only problem with that is the energy that starts the chain reaction we call "life" can be traced directly from each generation back to the last. That which makes you alive is a piece of that which gave life to your parents - kind of like jump-starting a car. You take a bit of the energy from one car's chain reaction, and use it to start the chain reaction in a second car. That second car can then be used to jump-start a third car, and so on. It's not possible that the energy from the third (or Nth) car could be the same that started the first car, as that energy was there already.

reply to post by HarmonicSynchronicity


Harmonic,

The "I just can't explain it" or "I'm not going to give it away to you" or "I'm just gonna sound crazy" statements are not helping. I am trying to understand your interpretation but need something more substantial.

So far many of the facets of your story can be explained:

* The feeling of reality changing
Can be attributed to dreams or a change in mental state. I've had a number of lucid dreams and they can seem very real yet be very different to my awaken life. Furthermore, our brains are a VERY complex piece of equipment and I'm sure its easy to miss wire them. I'm not saying that yours is miss wired but please think about it as a possibility and that the miss-wiring may actually be a good thing. Evolution is still at play.

* Reality as a simulation
Dreams are likely a simulation, an evolved sense in which you can learn from your experiences or genetic memory to avoid dangers in your future.

* Feeling of entering into a different level of consciousness
Can also be attributed to dreams or changes in state of mind from triggers such as meditation. The "God" experience I mentioned earlier is something people explain as a feeling of love and of not being alone. Another level of consciousness is the subconscious. I've had short conversations with my subconscious before and its a bit weird coming to the conclusion that the subconscious may actually be someone very unlike the conscious you.

* Feeling of being with friends or person's you know but have never met
Many dreams I've had involve people I've never met but I could swear that I've known them all my life. I believe this to be a brain trick affecting your short or long-term memory because the opposite occurs when you wake up. You forget the darn dream.

* Feeling that you are special or different
Many of us want to be special and unique. This is why we strive to make more money, wear different clothes, have unique hobbies, read super-hero comics etc.

* Feeling you can change reality by willing it.
The brain is a very powerful tool. My father always told me that I can do anything if I put my mind to it and I believe in this firmly. I remember once when I was young going to bed but really excited for tomorrow because I was going to do something special but I had to wake up early (7am). Before going to bed I told to my self over and over again "I am going to wake up at 7am". I woke up the next day at 6:59, within 5 seconds the clocked shifted to 7am. There was no alarm and I slept soundly the entire night. The chances of something like that happening out of chance are slim. I've never attempted to repeat the experiment.

* Belief that other people are NPC or actors
Society has been brainwashed. It's disconcerting and may seem like they are a set of props (sheep or cattle) but you need to understand that they are like this because of human nature. We are lazy and gullible and we're being herded by the elite. As I mentioned above - please watch the documentary "The Century of Self" on Google video.

* Perceptual consolidation
I can be laying down in a field of grass and flowers with the sun shining and birds chirping. To some people this would be normal, ideal and pleasant. And to others they may see a giant ball of plasma with deadly radiation pouring down on him/her. Weird green organisms exploding from the ground and these odd creatures flying high with threateningly pointy beaks and irritating chirps. Perception does not have to be communal.

I'm tired but I'm hoping you understand my point of view so that you can explain your side and prove me wrong. I'd love to be proven wrong.

Thanks for your time and I look forward to your response.

Obsidience

reply to post by euclid


Euclid,

On the first Matrix movie Neo visits the Oracle and the Oracle says "And don't worry about the vase.". At which point Neo turns and knocks a vase down. Later she says "Ohh, what's really going to bake your noodle later on is, would you still have broken it if I hadn't said anything?"

This is baking my noodle because it has MWI implications. Are universes converging, diverging or predefined and running in parallel?

What are your thoughts on:

1) Are universes diverging? Did the statement the Oracle made about the vase cause Neo to turn and create a new universe?

2) Are the universes already set and running in parallel? No matter what she would say the outcome would still be the same for that universe.

3) Universes are converging. I don't think this was in question with the Matrix scene however you sound like you believe in this aspect as you've in the past mentioned the term "world line collapse".

My personal belief is that either 1 or 2 are happening. It may be possible that 3 is happening based on the theory that dimensions are decreasing as the universe cools from the big bang AND that lowest entropy is eventually reached at which time the big crunch starts reversing the process. Do you believe that the number of possible universes/realities/dimensions/worlds is decreasing and, if so, how?

Obsidience

Originally posted by obsidience
reply to post by HarmonicSynchronicity

 

Harmonic,

The "I just can't explain it"

I can't. Metaphor and allegory are the best tools, but they fail miserably.

or "I'm not going to give it away to you"

I can't. Not because I don't want to, I just can't explain it in any way that could give it away. These concepts do not translate into human language terribly well.

or "I'm just gonna sound crazy"

I do.

statements are not helping.

All I can do is set down some guideposts. The rest is up to you. This isn't a cop-out. But this voyage cannot be taken by proxy.

I am trying to understand your interpretation but need something more substantial.

I haven't even given my interpretations. I have provided very shallow shadows of the phenomena that I call reality. Mine is, no doubt, colored through the spectacles of my own distinct experiences and most assuredly will not apply directly to you. I can lay out metaphors (such as the simulation argument, or the term NPC) which you may use as a measuring stick in your own search for truth. The various things that I have talked about may or may not be able to help you move forward towards some form of enlightenment about your existence. I cannot say one way or the other.

I will try to clarify the things that you ask for clarification on, if they can be clarified. This is not a simple task, as much of what I write is designed to engage your mind on multiple levels simultaneously; to force you to use intuitive thought and break free of the boundaries of preprogrammed logical limitations to the way you are managing your understanding of things. As such, various things that I say are not designed to be questioned logically (breaking down a metaphor is not sensible), they are designed to be considered and planted in your mind where, like a seed brought to earth and nourished, they can grow into something more profound within your mind.

So far many of the facets of your story can be explained:

;-)

* The feeling of reality changing

I haven't talked about a feeling of reality changing. Others here have. I haven't.

* Reality as a simulation
Dreams are likely a simulation, an evolved sense in which you can learn from your experiences or genetic memory to avoid dangers in your future.

I have not talked about dreaming. When I brought up the simulation argument (www.simulation-argument.com), I brought it up because I wanted people to read it in order to "recalibrate their thinking". The simulation argument does a splendid job of raising our awareness of the possibility that we are in a "construct". I have, since first invoking that argument, expressed my understanding that we are in something very similar to a simulation, but far far more profound.

* Feeling of entering into a different level of consciousness

You are using the word "feeling" a bit too much for my taste. I never said that I felt like I had entered into a different level of consciousness. I said I left this place completely. Much like waking up from a strange dream (earth being the dream), where I was a mosquito, I woke up outside of this construct, remembering the dream of being here. If this was a different "level" of consciousness, and we are measuring awareness on an exponential scale, where 1 is 10^1=10 (a mosquito), 2 is 10^2=100 (a rodent), 3 is 10^3=1000 (a man), etc... Then I would put that other "level" of consciousness at a number so high that it becomes unfathomable to compare human or mosquito consciousness to it. I couldn't squeeze the full memory back through the keyhole when I returned here, but I vividly recall the enormity of mind available to me 'outside'. Let's just say that human consciousness is much more similar to that of a mosquito and that dreams don't generally make you omniscient.

Can also be attributed to dreams or changes in state of mind from triggers such as meditation.

Transcendental meditation is called "transcendental" because it is possible to "transcend" this reality by exercising that discipline. A master can cross the boundary.

The "God" experience I mentioned earlier is something people explain as a feeling of love and of not being alone.

That feeling is certainly omnipresent 'outside'. But that isn't all there is too it. It's overwhelming and humbling and heart-wrenching (because of the contrast to this meager existence).

Another level of consciousness is the subconscious. I've had short conversations with my subconscious before and its a bit weird coming to the conclusion that the subconscious may actually be someone very unlike the conscious you.

Different topic. Interesting and valid. But a different topic.

* Feeling of being with friends or person's you know but have never met
Many dreams I've had involve people I've never met but I could swear that I've known them all my life. I believe this to be a brain trick affecting your short or long-term memory because the opposite occurs when you wake up. You forget the darn dream.

You are invoking dreams again. I was making reference to what I refer to as NPCs being controlled by actors (whom you do know, because they may have also been your boyhood best friend or your fifth grade teacher or your dog). This is deep material - but it can also be tested to some degree. Your companions on this voyage are willing to play hide-and-seek with you and other "almost give it away" games, so long as the ambiguity isn't eliminated (ruining the game).

* Feeling that you are special or different
Many of us want to be special and unique. This is why we strive to make more money, wear different clothes, have unique hobbies, read super-hero comics etc.

We are all special and different.

* Feeling you can change reality by willing it.

Tested. Confirmed. Somewhat controllable. Very dangerous.

* Belief that other people are NPC or actors
Society has been brainwashed. It's disconcerting and may seem like they are a set of props (sheep or cattle) but you need to understand that they are like this because of human nature. We are lazy and gullible and we're being herded by the elite. As I mentioned above - please watch the documentary "The Century of Self" on Google video.

I was being literal. Non Player Character. Animatronics. No real person there. Sometimes there are jokes embedded in the game. Watch for them. There are guideposts everywhere. Pay attention to other people's conversations - go ahead - eavesdrop on strangers. It may just be that you are meant to. You might be flabbergasted by what you hear and it may well confirm to you what I am telling you.

* Perceptual consolidation
I can be laying down in a field of grass and flowers with the sun shining and birds chirping. To some people this would be normal, ideal and pleasant. And to others they may see a giant ball of plasma with deadly radiation pouring down on him/her. Weird green organisms exploding from the ground and these odd creatures flying high with threateningly pointy beaks and irritating chirps. Perception does not have to be communal.

Agreed. I think I said that over and over.

I'm tired but I'm hoping you understand my point of view so that you can explain your side and prove me wrong. I'd love to be proven wrong.

I'm not here to prove anything to you. But I will provide you with riddles to solve and I can give you some hints on adventures to take (like randomly eavesdropping on strangers) that may produce unexpected results. The voyage is yours. There is nothing to prove.

My own experiences have not been dreams or feelings. My experiences have been jaw dropping, out of this world, tangible and visceral events of great consequence. A bit like being hit by a truck. There is no ambiguity for me about whether or not these things are a part of my reality. But that doesn't mean that they are a part of yours, or even that they can be. I don't have the answer to those questions.

So far many of the facets of your story can be explained:

The fact that something CAN (or could) be explained, does not automatically mean the explanation IS the real one.

Dreams are likely a simulation, an evolved sense in which you can learn from your experiences or genetic memory to avoid dangers in your future.

This is presented as if it were more or less uncontentious - and as if people had basically the same types of dreams.

There MAY be dreams that teach one to avoid dangers in their waking hours. (I know I cannot remember a single instance of such a dream. What DANGER could I learn to avoid by dreaming, for example, that I am breathing pure gold - the air IS gold - and floating in ecstasy?)

But even in people who do have them, they are far from regular, let alone constant - and we dream every single night, all of us. So, what would be the purpose of all the other dreams?

The fact is nobody KNOWS what dreams really are.
Furthermore, there various types - and, by implication, sources? - of dreams: acting out (purging, I call it :-)), precognitive dreams (it is a fact: they do exist), and other types that I don't even know what to call them because they feel like very "real" encounters in real time/space - only not the everyday one.

Many of us want to be special and unique.

And all of us ARE.
(The problem for many people is precisely in underestimating their own "value".)

But the LEVELS (for lack of a better term) on which people operate differ greatly. Some are born to be Napoleons; others are born to be the rock on which the Napoleons find their strength and repose.
The intrinsic value of both "types" is exactly the same.

In other words, some people and their goals really are more "special", when viewed from the perspective (as fallacious as it is) of a collective everyday experience - and ONLY from that perspective.

But you know that already.








[edit on 31-8-2008 by Vanitas]

reply to post by HarmonicSynchronicity


Harmonic,

First off I think we both agree that we can create our own reality and that as such yours and mine MAY NOT be similar. If I don't agree with something you say I will not think any less of you because of the understanding we have.

The idea that we may be living in an artificial construct is not something new to me. I've had this and many other thought experiments before. I also consider myself highly observant of others. Not so to the point of eavesdropping and being flabbergasted. But to the point where I've come to realize how much of a "rat race" this world really is; which is depressing to me.

The simulation theory you refer to is pointless to argue. I'm a programmer by trade and know that if I was smart enough to create a simulation of such complexity as our reality - that I would do so with safeguards in place to prevent contamination of said simulation. Our very existence could be turned off at the flick of a switch for eons and after being turned back on - we'd be none the wiser. If you've found a way to bypass those safeguards, you may very well be dooming us all

Have I looked for cues of being led down a story line? Yes and I have seen some powerful ones in which I've handled well and others not so much. Do I sometimes get the feeling that the people around me are "for" me... Yes to that too. Can I push this line of thinking to the point of saying they aren't real (NPC/animatronics). I'm having a hard time at this point. I'll take your hint about listening and will get back to you. If you have further hints or recommendations send them in my direction so that I can explore further. Exploration is more important than fear.

I'd like to relay to you my current beliefs so that you better understand where I come from. I believe that the meaning of life is the fact that it's different than being inanimate. The point is that it's different, novel and worth experiencing. The universe is trying to "understand" and to do so - it has created an infinite number of realities/worlds/dimensions/simulations.

Because of this belief, anything that can happen has and will happen an infinite number of times. Realities in which a sperm whale materializes in the sky and comes to a simplistic sense of awareness before dieing is something that can be occurring right now. I don't believe in everything I read at face value but I find it hard to assume that it's all lies. That being said this is my only way of scientifically explaining the unexplainable. This is the reason for my interest in this thread and the experiences people including you are relaying.

Best regards,

Obsidience

reply to post by Vanitas


Thanks for your insight Vanitas. I agree with all of your points while contending to mine.

Above I state my belief that that the universe is purposefully experiencing infinite world-lines to better "understand". We may be doing the same thing on an individual level. That being said, SOME dreams (including precognitive) have also served man and animal kind well as a survival tool. It very well could have been the deciding factor when extinction was at hand.

I've been playing around with processing the Mars rover image datasets, and while looking for some color calibration information, I ran across this interesting page:

www.rense.com...

The change noticed involves the shape of the sundials on the Mars rovers. Apparently, they have sprouted a set of 'gears on the gnomon' that weren't there before. Personally, I don't remember the 'gears' being part of the sundial:

Apparently, something in the past has caused a sudden change in the present. All known copies of this image, both digital and those in print, have all been changed and look like the image above.

Strange, huh? Anyone else remember the sundial looking the way the page describes? (there's a mock-up picture)

Ian,

This does put a different spin on things because we now have an object possibly linked to this phenomena that is also millions of miles away (35m-235m depending on the orbits).

Thanks for the link!

Obsidience

No, it doesn't ask yourself where the object came from, and you will understand why.

reply to post by Aron1138


From the article:

"About a week prior to this posting, a change in the sundial on the Rover was suddenly noticed. "

The posting was dated 12-31-2007, the rover was launched in 2003. This means that the change, if it's true, occurred with the rover being millions of miles away.

Mars is in a very different spacetime region compared to us. Since this thread is about timeline shifts or dimensional travel - how can this not be a different spin on this thread?

Originally posted by dave420
reply to post by amatrine

 

The only problem with that is the energy that starts the chain reaction we call "life" can be traced directly from each generation back to the last. That which makes you alive is a piece of that which gave life to your parents - kind of like jump-starting a car. You take a bit of the energy from one car's chain reaction, and use it to start the chain reaction in a second car. That second car can then be used to jump-start a third car, and so on. It's not possible that the energy from the third (or Nth) car could be the same that started the first car, as that energy was there already.

That would make sense for the body. So the new body comes from an old bodies energy, but lets say the soul does not follow those patters, so the soul can exist at any time, in any time, and multiple times, ... in different bodies .


Ama

Originally posted by obsidience
reply to post by euclid

 

Euclid,

On the first Matrix movie Neo visits the Oracle and the Oracle says "And don't worry about the vase.". At which point Neo turns and knocks a vase down. Later she says "Ohh, what's really going to bake your noodle later on is, would you still have broken it if I hadn't said anything?"

This is baking my noodle because it has MWI implications. Are universes converging, diverging or predefined and running in parallel?

What are your thoughts on:

1) Are universes diverging? Did the statement the Oracle made about the vase cause Neo to turn and create a new universe?

2) Are the universes already set and running in parallel? No matter what she would say the outcome would still be the same for that universe.

3) Universes are converging. I don't think this was in question with the Matrix scene however you sound like you believe in this aspect as you've in the past mentioned the term "world line collapse".

My personal belief is that either 1 or 2 are happening. It may be possible that 3 is happening based on the theory that dimensions are decreasing as the universe cools from the big bang AND that lowest entropy is eventually reached at which time the big crunch starts reversing the process. Do you believe that the number of possible universes/realities/dimensions/worlds is decreasing and, if so, how?

Obsidience

Hello Obsidience,

I have seen the movie and it is a good movie - but remember that it is only a movie. Are there divergent quantum world-lines? Yes, quantum world-lines diverge and converge continuously. It is a natural QM function. What is strange about the current phenomenon, and what this thread is concerned with specifically, is that after a converging of a world-line quantum mechanical processes should correlate all previous quantum states of the merged world-lines so that there are no divergent shared histories..... and that is not occurring. The effect of this is that we all seem to remember things differently.

I assume that you know a bit about the MWI of QM. And I would have to say yes - everything is running parallel. I'll try to keep this short and to the point: At the quantum level of existence there is no time; everything is happening at once. I'm sure you are aware of the MWI concept of a Universal Wave-function. We are, as humans beings, a sub-wave-function of that universal wave-function. Physics has proven that waves (i.e. wave functions) are also particles. Human consciousness correlates to the particle of a wave function. Our existence as a wave-function extends throughout all space-time. Our phenomenological existence is tied to world-line that we are consciously aware of, it is the point of reference on the wave-function.

Yes your points 1 and 2 occur naturally. The problem is that the natural process is being disturbed/perturbed by an outside force that is preventing the completion of a quantum correlation. Thus, we end up with a bunch of us having "different" memories of events.

Hope that makes sense. I have other posts in this thread that have specific links to physics research (at ARVIX) that explain why quantum world-line deviations occur near strong gravitation fields.

-Euclid

Originally posted by Ian McLean
I've been playing around with processing the Mars rover image datasets, and while looking for some color calibration information, I ran across this interesting page:

www.rense.com...

The change noticed involves the shape of the sundials on the Mars rovers. Apparently, they have sprouted a set of 'gears on the gnomon' that weren't there before. Personally, I don't remember the 'gears' being part of the sundial:

Apparently, something in the past has caused a sudden change in the present. All known copies of this image, both digital and those in print, have all been changed and look like the image above.

Strange, huh? Anyone else remember the sundial looking the way the page describes? (there's a mock-up picture)

Ian, that is not all that has changed on the rovers. I am exchanging information with a very respected member of this site concerning several changes that have been noted on the rovers.

The "symptoms" of this problem match up as well. All the physical evidence of the changes propagated to the stored images that people have of the rovers, as if all the data was updated to correlate.

-Euclid

Originally posted by euclid
The "symptoms" of this problem match up as well. All the physical evidence of the changes propagated to the stored images that people have of the rovers, as if all the data was updated to correlate.

Odd isn't it? I'm not a scientist or theologian but I can't imagine more than 4 possible scenarios here:

1) Our minds are being tampered with.
2) Our physical reality is being tampered with.
3) Pockets of spacetime anomalies are being traversed by physical objects.
4) Pockets of spacetime anomalies are being traversed by "souls".

I tend to believe in 3 or 4. Scenario 3 should be possible to test with the internet. If a hard-drive containing historical facts traverses through a spacetime anomaly we then have two versions of history viewable to us netizens.

The experiment could be done in a more controlled fashion... Imagine a P2P program that:

1) Stores a predefined set of historical facts along with a checksum against the sum of all fact data
2) Periodic updates of historical fact/checksum data against a central server and each update would be associated with a date value
3) Periodic comparisons of the checksum + date value against peers
4) Checksum anomolies are reported to central server and historical data is uploaded, vetted and published.
5) Security features to prevent tampering

With enough peers and enough historical facts this could work...

Obsidience

reply to post by obsidience


Actually several people have already tried that and of course it doesn't work due to the all physical data being "sync'ed up" at a quantum level after a world-line collapse occurs. There are some people who posted their experiences where data, like MP3's, that they new they had were gone or new data that they didn't download was on their drive, or data that they new had just ceased to exist.

Some people even printed out pages of this thread and noted that the printed pages, over-time, were updated to reflect changes in the world-line. So these collapses make global changes (in this context global refers to widespread physical changes) to everything but conscious-awareness remains unaffected.

The only "thing" that remains from a previous world-line is the individuals memory of a different history, and that's because mind exists outside of time and in a separate quantum state. That state is their wave-function which is a sub-set of the universal wave-function.

-Euclid

[edit on 2-9-2008 by euclid]

reply to post by euclid


Hi Euclid,

What if quantum synchronization is not occurring? Instead, the participant is simply shifting between world-lines due to a spacetime anomaly (unknown size/location) that he/she passes through at some point.

If someone on this thread prints out the contents of this thread. Leaves it on the desk and then drives to McDonalds for dinner and while doing so - drives through an anomaly. That means that the participant's world-line has changed and so when he/she returns home the paper is different. Now if the participant had the printout in his/her jacket pocket things **may** be different and we'd have physical proof of this phenomena because physical evidence moved through the anomaly (rather then just the memories in your head).

Assuming physical proof is possible and that these spacetime anomalies are moving. The test I mentioned previously could work, don't you agree?

Obsidience

Yes i often feel like this..and dont have a clue why..but when you go back to feeling normal i feel so relieved.
N3RDz