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Christians Committ More Crime and Divorce

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posted on Jul, 8 2008 @ 05:22 PM
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Originally posted by Toromos
Can you link to where you got these statistics? I searched the FBP site and the Statistical Abstract of the U.S. and am getting different data than what you reported.


divore rates www.religioustolerance.org...

prison freethoughtpedia.com...




posted on Jul, 8 2008 @ 05:25 PM
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Originally posted by Yosimitie Sam
Ahhhhem
Another hate mongers
thread !!!

Stats don't reflect that 94.7% of those inmates were atheists when they committed the crimes. The harsh environment of prison led them to prayer. So when they took the survey they answered honestly that they were Christian. Plain damn truth that most crimes are committed by atheists is obvious.




You've got to be kidding me with this.



posted on Jul, 8 2008 @ 05:34 PM
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Originally posted by TheB1ueSoldier
Research groups, focus groups, and magazines such as Focus On The Family and Southern Baptist Convention's Council on the Family claim that Christian households only experience a 1% divorce rate at most.


Of course they do. But I really can't bash them for saying it unless you want to cite one of their surveys. If its above board - random sampling, objective definition of "Christian Household," etc., and explains what those terms means then it shouldn't matter. It probably isn't though - since a random sample so large that it has no material confidence interval would require a huge sampling size.


Originally posted by TheB1ueSoldier
They even have the slogan "a family that prays together, stays together." So I wasn't kidding about the propaganda and unsupported "facts" that Christian interest groups throw at us. And in light of this new poll, its confirmed that in fact Atheists and Christians do not have a large enough difference in divorce rates for Christian interest groups to be saying this. That is why its anti-propaganda.


I would say its just another form of propaganda, its anti-christian and pro-atheist propaganda. It is not confirmed that atheists have a lower divorce rate than Christians, for quite a few logical and statistical reasons:

1) On the logic side, as I previously described, your comparing self-classifying data with objective event based data. Combining these two events - self-identified Christians with objective data like divorces among the sample - captures huge swaths of people who may or may not fit any reasonable definition of Christian. Same goes for Atheists.

2) Again on the logic side, you are not comparing apples to apples. You are trying to segregate the denominations of Christianity and compare that with the overall ideology of Atheism. If you were being truthful, you'd compare all denominations combine to represent Christianity as a whole. When you do, you get a group average of 25%, within the confidence interval between Christianity and Atheism. As such, there is no material difference in divorce rates among Christians and Atheists.

3) On the statistics side, since Atheists are such a small percent of the population, the random sample required to be statistically significant is small. This brings in other problems that tests of statistical significance cannot help us with. If I have a small population such that I only need a few random people sampled to collect their data, I run a higher chance of collecting data that fall outside the normal distribution curve for whatever I am collecting. Unless these surveys include a difference of means test for the Atheist group showing that there is no statistically significant difference in between objective demographics in the sample group and the estimated demographics of the population, we have no way of knowing how accurate this is.


Originally posted by TheB1ueSoldier
Well who are you to tell who is or is not Christian? Everyone has their own opinion on what constitutes a Christian. The Catholic Church has stated many times that it is the one true church for Christians. Some protestants claim that the pope is actually an agent of the devil and that Catholics are condemned to hell. Other protestants believe that if you cannot speak in tongues then you will not go to heaven because you haven't been spiritually reborn (its true my old church preached this). Ultimately, you CANT judge each Christian to see if they follow your specific rules of Christianity, because everyone has different rules. The only reliable way is to ask people if they consider themselves to be following a Christian life and if they indeed are a Christian.


You completely missed the point. Due to an amalgamation of cultural and and social factors, people in generally identify themselves as Christian even when they do not meet any reasonable standard for the classification. It is a phenomena in statistics called the social desirability response, where respondents will almost always answer questions in ways that they believe you want to hear and which are in line with cultural norms.

You are attempting to infer with statistics that it is the ideological nature of Christianity that Christians claim somehow saves them from things like divorce or prison, and then you are using data from people who in all likelihood do not possess the type of ideology you are railing against. It doesn't really matter if they claim they are Christian and yet don't believe in the divinity of Christ or the tenets of his message. If they claim themselves as Christian and yet don't really have a Christian ideology, how can you conclude that their Christianity did not save them from divorce or prison (when they did not really have such an ideology to begin with)?


Originally posted by ALightinDarkness
Actually, non-denominational refers to Evangelical Christians, not the kind of Christians who stay home on sundays and fap on the internet all day. Evangelicals hold a very fundamentalist Christian view and tend to grow along the bible belt.


No, it doesn't, because the denomination is self-identifying. And those who do not go to church or participate in the Christian community would logically call themselves non-denominational. If they meant evangelical, they would have added that.


Originally posted by TheB1ueSoldier
Agreed, but that does not mean you can throw all the evidence out the window. Face it, the only reason you say this is because the statistics didn't match up to what you wanted. If it were 75% Atheist and .02% Christian you'd have a lot less to quarrel with.


Quite wrong. You really need to stop assuming everyone that who disagrees with you is out to get you. It doesn't matter what the data conclude when the data are not compiled in a manner in which you can draw these conclusions from. Your playing with statistics, I've pointed out what your doing, and now your mad about it.

[edit on 8-7-2008 by ALightinDarkness]



posted on Jul, 8 2008 @ 05:39 PM
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An interesting comic from Russell's Teapot, derived from the Teapot argument which is a very interesting one indeed. Norway you rock! I hope that one day America wakes up and abandons their primitive and nonsensical religion.


Chemistry has taken over Alchemy, Astronomy has taken over Astrology, and I hope one day that Philosophy takes over Religion. But alas we are human after all, we are afraid of the dark and we are afraid of death and we feel the need to cling to religion as our comforting old blanket.

[edit on 7/8/2008 by TheB1ueSoldier]

[edit on 7/8/2008 by TheB1ueSoldier]



posted on Jul, 8 2008 @ 05:41 PM
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reply to post by TheB1ueSoldier
 


A classical example of confusing correlation with causation. The fact that X and Y happen to be moving in the same direction does not mean that X caused Y.

I'm using logic and philosophy here. You claim that is what you want, us to use philosophy, and yet your quoting logical fallacies. I guess you only want to use the philosophy that agrees with you?

[edit on 8-7-2008 by ALightinDarkness]



posted on Jul, 8 2008 @ 05:56 PM
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Originally posted by TheB1ueSoldier

Originally posted by Toromos
Can you link to where you got these statistics? I searched the FBP site and the Statistical Abstract of the U.S. and am getting different data than what you reported.


divore rates www.religioustolerance.org...

prison freethoughtpedia.com...


Freethoughtpedia LOL


No wonder he got different numbers from the Statistical Abstract of the U.S.

The "atheist wikipedia" YEAH that's a trustworthy UNBIASED source for statistics about Christians. I guess you will accept Stats about atheists from Pat Roberson then too -right? It's only fair.

Many Guys become Christians in Prison. It has a way of getting your attention when society locks you up. Jesus changes lives.




Lighthouse Ministries is a Prison Ministry in Oklahoma devoted to helping change the lives of incarcerated men and women through the love and priciples of Jesus Christ. Also reaching out to the children of incarcerated parents, offering summer camp and counseling. Therapy dog team ministry reaching out to hospitals and libraries in the OKC metro area.





[edit on 7/8/2008 by Bigwhammy]



posted on Jul, 8 2008 @ 06:26 PM
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Originally posted by Bigwhammy
Freethoughtpedia LOL


No wonder he got different numbers from the Statistical Abstract of the U.S.

The "atheist wikipedia" YEAH that's a trustworthy UNBIASED source for statistics about Christians. I guess you will accept Stats about atheists from Pat Roberson then too -right? It's only fair.

That website didn't do the polling, they got their statistics from Barna Research Group, the leader of which is a Christian himself. Why would a Christian make the statistics favor non-Christians? I have no reason to believe it was altered or is unreliable.




Originally posted by Bigwhammy
Many Guys become Christians in Prison. It has a way of getting your attention when society locks you up. Jesus changes lives.

A lot of guys also become gay in prison, what's your point?



posted on Jul, 8 2008 @ 09:32 PM
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reply to post by TheB1ueSoldier
 



A lot of guys also become gay in prison, what's your point?


So people are not born gay? They just choose to become gay. Interesting position for an atheist to take.

Ok I have to spell it out for you?

If they become Christians in prison... they weren't when they entered.

Do the math.

Your stats are meaningless. :shk:

Evidence:




The Forsyth Jail and Prison Ministries provides Christian ministry to the men and women incarcerated in the Forsyth County Jail and the Forsyth Correctional Center in Winston-Salem, NC.





[edit on 7/8/2008 by Bigwhammy]



posted on Jul, 9 2008 @ 12:16 AM
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Originally posted by ALightinDarkness
A classical example of confusing correlation with causation. The fact that X and Y happen to be moving in the same direction does not mean that X caused Y.

I'm familiar with that, but in this case X is a large factor in the causation of Y. Look at how religion impedes a society. It stops scientific progress in its tracks. Abortion, Stem Cell Research, Evolution. All enemies of Christianity (Except for if you're Catholic, Evolution is ok). Do you know how many lives could have been saved if stem cell research were funded, put into practice, and used to treat patients like in other countries? My father has an incurable disease that requires stem cell treatment, it is the only option. And guess what, because Bush vetoed the bill on RELIGIOUS grounds my family travels to China every year to receive treatment. Don't worry about me, I'll be out of your way soon enough when we go bankrupt +_+


No scientist or doctor in his right mind would classify Stem Cell research as unethical. To have the uneducated religious masses rally against something they are ignorant about, causing an entire area of research to be halted and tossed aside is what is really unethical. You are stopping research which we KNOW has the potential to cure many forms of cancer, Alzheimer's, Parkinson's, Spinal Cord injury, and Paralysis. And these bahhing religious sheep act like they are righteous for saving precious fetuses which would have already been dead by the time stem cells are allowed to be taken from them. Trust me, it's not so funny when your dad comes home diagnosed with cancer. So keep your godforsaken religion at home and out of the American government. It's already inept as it is.


And the teaching of evolution is actually considered a controversy?? Give me a break. If evolution isn't true, don't bother getting your flu shot this winter because according to you the flu virus can't and doesn't evolve each year. And throw your pet dogs and cats into the street because they are unevolved, wild beasts that are no different than wolves and lynx. O yeah, don't trust the scientists but instead trust a book that was written by cattle-sacrificing savages who didn't know what bacteria was. I'm not insulting you, I'm insulting the sadistic bastards who unknowingly started a cult numbering in the billions responsible for death and ignorance that we could have lived without.


But you know what insults me the most? It's not the fact that my father can't get treatment here in America. It's not that my love of science is constantly criticized and demonized by people who've never read a high school science book. It's not that abortion doctors are shot down and have their houses fire bombed. You know what the real problem is? You seem to know a bit about philosophy, so I'll explain it like this. Christianity is a religion based on Relativism, aka the idea that "Truth is What I Believe It To Be." Christians can basically accept ANYTHING without evidence as long as it has "Holy Bible" stamped on top of it or if it comes out of their preacher's mouth. Relativism is an incredibly ignorant and evil idea. Once you get the ball rolling, relativism can justify anything from Genocide to Willful Ignorance of Fact. And it already has. And that, my friend, is why I believe Nations without this severe handicap can prosper scientifically, ethically, educationally, and economically over Religious Nations. That is why X is the causation of Y, and that is why The World would be better off without mysticism and faith.



posted on Jul, 9 2008 @ 12:25 AM
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Originally posted by Bigwhammy
So people are not born gay? They just choose to become gay. Interesting position for an atheist to take.

Behavior is a combination of the theories of "Nature" and "Nurture." You can be born homosexual(scientists are evermore closer to finding the exact dna that causes it) or you can be conditioned into homosexuality. Please, knowledge comes from reading more than just the bible. I honestly plead with you to pick up "On the Origin of Species" or "Phil 101." For the sake of your future, kid's future, whatever just rip yourself from the Christian crowd for a few weeks. Read up on secular knowledge and human nature itself will win out. Take the blindfold off, if only for a moment.




Originally posted by Bigwhammy
Ok I have to spell it out for you?

If they become Christians in prison... they weren't when they entered.

We can go around in circles for weeks. I put the evidence in front of you. You can take it or not.



posted on Jul, 9 2008 @ 06:34 AM
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reply to post by TheB1ueSoldier
 


Your pleading for me to read back fires on you.

I have an engineering degree from a highly respected secular State College. I became a Christian at 37 due to evidence. An organic Chemistry professor was influential in that decision. The Bible is quite real. You are just ignorant. I used to be as well. There's always today as the first day of your new life. You are the one who needs to read up my friend.

Your so called stats are pure atheist propaganda.

Worthless.



posted on Jul, 9 2008 @ 01:23 PM
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" religion impeeded on society , abortion stem cell ect.. "

Ok I have to interrupt this wit fest, I must respond to this in respect to Blue1 because he is a soul of God.

You see what you don't realize is that we are against those things from a moral perspective. our mindset is baised on the afterlife not the for now life.

Say we use stem cells which is against our morality and the person finds a cure, and then say that same soul dies in a car crash the next couple of hours. Then it was for nothing that we compromised our position and God's position I should say.

Science also created Nukes and God said years ago that this technology would blow the entire earth up and it will.

so science will destroy our own planet. We should be damn grateful we have some moral teachers in this world and morality.


we always look for the means to enhance our earthly life which passes like the wind. how much longer can I make myself live? How much healthier can i get? yet the meanwhile my soul is not being attended to.

We are born to think eternally and not just now and how to enhance our lives while putting others in danger.


peace.



posted on Jul, 9 2008 @ 07:24 PM
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I'm done with this thread...



posted on Jul, 9 2008 @ 10:16 PM
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Originally posted by TheB1ueSoldier
I'm familiar with that, but in this case X is a large factor in the causation of Y.


Woah. Full stop. You have in no way shown that or even given evidence to lend to that. In fact, the statistics you have shown are at best highly questionable. You have not proven that Christianity results in lower standards of living, or that Atheism shows higher standards of living.

You have, as I have said, noted a case where both factors you are trying to claim causality on (Atheism and high standards of living) are correlated. Again, correlation does not equal causation. I am willing to bet the percent of white people in that country are high as well - will you also now claim that a high percent of white people contributes to a high standard of living? Of course not, because you know correlation does not equal causation - but your trying to make it look like it does when it involves something where you really want causation to exist.

Your free to hate religion and blame it for everything, but you have presented no evidence for your claims. Indeed, the problem with the world is not religion as you would like to think. Men and women do horrible things with or without it. It does not change when you remove religion from the equation. If you wish to blame something for all of the evil in the world, blame it on humanity. Men caused the problems you see here, not religion. Men lifted the sword, pushed the red buttons, and twisted the knives.

Finally, Christianity is not relativism. As someone who majored in philosophy and religion (and political science), I can tell you that there is no scholar of philosophy who would ever agree with you on that. Christianity is the definition of moral absolutism. Atheism, what you are proposing, is relativism.

[edit on 9-7-2008 by ALightinDarkness]



posted on Jul, 9 2008 @ 10:34 PM
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Originally posted by TheB1ueSoldier
The world would be better off without religion.


Thats the kind of ignorance that gives us atheists (yes I am an atheist) a bad name.

Please all religious members....we are not all like this



posted on Jul, 20 2008 @ 08:09 PM
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reply to post by OzWeatherman
 


...why does it give us a bad name?

there is a high likelihood that the world would be better off without religion, as it costs billions (if not trillions) a year in wasted money that could go into fixing the world, keeps some people in submission to certain sorts of mindsets based on indoctrination, and probably doesn't affect whether or not most people are good or bad...but it does allow good people to do bad things while thinking they're good.

good people will do good things
and bad people will do bad things
but it takes religion to make a good person do bad things...

not saying the world would necessarily be better off without religion, but if the general populace through on the mantles of skepticism and logical inquiry, the world would be a better place

if people willingly gave up religion, the world would be a better place.



posted on Jul, 20 2008 @ 08:27 PM
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good people will do good things
and bad people will do bad things
but it takes religion to make a good person do bad things...


Same old canards, huh madd?

What about the alcoholics and drug addicts that get clean due to religion. What about the murderers in prison who convert and minister to their fellow inmates. All the millions of testimonies of lost people that make dramatic life changes due to religion. The Bible teaches no one is righteous or "good" as you say. See you have it completely backwards!

It takes religion to make a bad person do good things!



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