Are Catholics Christian?, page 9

reply to post by salvu

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I would have to ask are they really Jesus' teachings or Paul's teachings? I think something syncretic happened with those teachings.

So are you saying the Dharmic faiths don't vilify human nature? One of things that both the Abrahamic faiths and Dharmic faiths strive for is Self Control, especially of our "natural" urges.

reply to post by MikeboydUS

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Both. Jesus' teachings, whoever it might've been, were lost in translation, sometimes purposely, other times not.

I'm not into Dharmic faiths I'm afraid, but I'll look into them.

Originally posted by josephine

Originally posted by MikeboydUS
reply to post by kacou

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So my goal is not to bash or hate. My goal is not to convert. I am here to enlighten and try to get people to think. I want people to go and research, learn about history, analyze and understand things.

Thats it. No Hate. Only Understanding.

[edit on 7/7/08 by MikeboydUS]

you have pinpointed the problem correctly.
The very important question that the OP has given us, is not only from
him/herself but of God, as I have shown in my previous quotes what
God asks us to do, dont forget Satan is lurking in this post, all replies
are to help you, seek unto yourself, dont ever accept what man
tells you, do not accept what I tell you, but question it and prove it.

For as long as I live, I will never tell a man I hate him!!

I've lived in an anti-Catholic society all my life. I was denied job opportunity because of my faith, and have watched triumphalist Protestantism marching in the streets threatening violence to Catholics. I have witnessed the venom of Glasgow Rangers football supporters as they regularly scream "# the Pope and the Virgin Mary!" The same professional football club operated for a century a policy of never signing a Catholic to play for their club. I watched as Protestant politicians ignored such blatant bigotry, and yet now have the gall to blame religious sectarianism on Catholic schooling. Yes Christians are still persecuted, and they are called by the same name self-descriptive of Christians in the early 2nd. century, Catholic, the same body thrown to the lions in the Roman arena. I know where Satan lurks; he lurks in the crazed rantings of extreme Protestantism.

reply to post by Robhaidheuch

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I'm not Protestant. I will also state that Martin Luther was one of the most Anti semitic/judaic people in history.

If Satan lurks anywhere, he lurks behind the virulent and irrational psychosis of Anti Semitism/Anti Judaism. He is the adversary and accuser of the human race, but even more than that he is the Accuser and Adversary of Israel. From Pharoah to Hitler, the children of Israel have endured and survived thousands of years of hell on earth unlike any other people in history.

reply to post by FlyersFan

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Excellent points. Finally, FF, we agree on something!

A very new thread as been created which is related really to this one:
Amazingly this thread had only 2 reply, maybe the time zone difference had some thing to do with this.
I invite you to visit this thread “All Abrahamic Religions Explained” which was created by abelievingskeptic.
www.abovetopsecret.com...
kacou

Originally posted by VIKINGANT
reply to post by Rockpuck

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The question is not.....
Is Catholicism Christian in Nature?
Which is the question often being answered

the question is....
Is Catholicism Christian in Origin?
Which is the question occasionaly being touched on.

Don't know your own thread?

Title of thread: Are Catholics Christian?

You can't just change your thread around to better suit an argument..

If you want to ask is "Catholicism Christian in Origin" You must actually ask "Is Christianity Christian in Origin"

Which it's not, it's a take off of many other religions..

Few religions are "unique" that are followed by innumerable people..

reply to post by Rockpuck

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Not so my friend.
You interpreted the question as "Christian in nature" yet in my opening post I said

the prospect that Catholisism was born not from Christianity as is believed but other Pagan religions

Therfore asking is it Christian in origin.

This is not to say that I haven't appreciated the education I have received along the way. I have enjoyed this thread and learned more than expected.

reply to post by VIKINGANT

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First:

Origin and Nature. What the hells the difference?

Origin implies it's beginning, thus foundation, and Nature implies foundation.

Is Christianity (not just Catholicism) Pagan?

Yes. 100%

Ever studied Zoroastrianism? If not, it's quite.. interesting.. many scholars believe it is a possibility that a cross between these people and Jews, both being Semites, could have produced the ideologies of Christianity..

Coupled with Romanism..

Coupled with the various Gaelic and Germanic cultures it consumed..

But it's not just Catholicism .. you need to know that.. because even the Protestants recognize Easter, Christmas, Halloween, and various mythological beliefs in Christian Mythology that is clearly Pagan.

Not that theres anything wrong with that, I am quite proud of my Pagan nature..

reply to post by Rockpuck

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Origin

1: ancestry, parentage
2 a: rise, beginning, or derivation from a source b: the point at which something begins or rises or from which it derives ; also : something that creates, causes, or gives rise to another
3: the more fixed, central, or larger attachment of a muscle
4: the intersection of coordinate axes

Nature

1 a: the inherent character or basic constitution of a person or thing : essence b: disposition, temperament
2 a: a creative and controlling force in the universe b: an inner force or the sum of such forces in an individual
3: a kind or class usually distinguished by fundamental or essential characteristics
4: the physical constitution or drives of an organism; especially : an excretory organ or function —used in phrases like the call of nature
5: a spontaneous attitude (as of generosity)
6: the external world in its entirety
7 a: humankind's original or natural condition b: a simplified mode of life resembling this condition
8: the genetically controlled qualities of an organism
9: natural scenery

The last I checked Zoroastrianism was a Persian religion. The Persians are not Semites. They are descended from the Aryan tribes of Central Asia.

reply to post by salvu

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I do not understand whether you are referring to a general "you" or me personally but if it's me who you're referring to, I've read the Catechism, in fact I was examined on that, and no, I'm not a Catholic, only an ex-Catholic.

Sorry about that. My attempt at humor, trying to point out an irony.
I do not mean you disrespect, just making a point that it is not fun to be called ignorant.
I agree with you, mostly.
Despite being an ex-Catholic, you seem compelled to defend the institution.
The official take, is that all non-Catholic churches are not even called churches.
They call them Christian communities.
They reserve the term Church, to be only used to describe themselves.

reply to post by Robhaidheuch

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I've lived in an anti-Catholic society all my life.

I was watching public TV last night and on the show, Out of Ireland, they did a story about this church.

St. Brigid's attributed to Patrick Keeley, is the oldest surviving Irish-immigrant built church in New York City and one of the city’s earliest Gothic Revival churches. The 1848 building features a relatively simple exterior, but a soaring, vaulted sanctuary interior.

Shortly after the church closed in 2004, a coalition of neighborhood residents, former parishioners, and Irish-American New Yorkers formed “Save St. Brigid’s.” Meeting regularly under the umbrella of a neighborhood advocacy group, the East Village Community Coalition, “Save St. Brigid’s” has held rallies and fundraisers, established the website, www.savestbrigid.com, and obtained a temporary legal injunction to forestall demolition.

tools.isovera.com...
The end of this story, on TV, was that an anonymous donor contributed $15 M. to save this church and to re-open the school and run the church.
This made me feel very happy, that someone had enough respect, to not sit back and watch this get torn down.
This building is testimony to what you are talking about.
Discrimination against Catholics.
I love the Irish Church.
That does not mean I worship the Pope.
My sister is married to an Irish Catholic who is nephew of a Bishop.
She goes with him often, to Ireland and they are going to take my Father next time.
I am proud, as an American, of the Irish and Scottish immigrants to this land.

reply to post by passenger

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That’s what Christ was: a Jew that wanted to reform Judaism, not create a whole new entity.

Whether Jesus did or did not, God had a plan to create a whole new entity.
Jesus is the first born of this creation.
All of this creation was made by him and for him and there is nothing created that was not created by him.
Before this creation existed, Jesus existed.
He was in the beginning and he was the word of God and the full authority of God dwelled within his body.
The Catholic Church claims that they are the only true church because it was founded by Jesus, himself.
There was a catholic church before there was the Catholic church.
It was not in Rome.
The Catholic Church, as we have it, today, is not founded by Jesus, himself but was created by the Romans.
Jesus is: our intercessor, our intermediary, our advocate, our representative, our substitute, Our King, and God on Earth.
These are all things that the Catholic Church has claimed for itself, the Pope, Mary, and the Saints.
Jesus said, On this rock, I will build my Church.
That rock is the Faith that Jesus is the Messiah.
If someone comes along and sets up their own religion, based on taking everything that is the attributes of the Messiah, and applies them to themselves, they are not following Jesus, and as such, are not Christian.

reply to post by MikeboydUS

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Congrats, thanks for solidifying the words I just typed.

Origin:
2 a: rise, beginning, or derivation from a source
Nature:
1 a: the inherent character or basic constitution of a person or thing : essence
Foundation:
1.the basis or groundwork of anything: the moral foundation of both society and religion.

My vocabulary skills far surpass you it would seem, don't try and prove me wrong accelerating your own ignorance. It's depressing.

The last I checked Zoroastrianism was a Persian religion. The Persians are not Semites. They are descended from the Aryan tribes of Central Asia.

Actually..

It's a religion. Not an ethnicity. The practice carried from Persia to the southern reaches of Russia into the Arabian Peninsula.. Meaning that Semites in the area where the Judaic religion was focused, where mixed between localized "pagan" religions, Zoroastrianism and Judaism along with other State religions of the Romans.

Anything else asinine you wish to say?

passenger:

Any way you examine it Christianity, but specifically the Roman Catholic version, has no clear connection to it’s actual Nature or origin or intent or ideals.

This is actually true. Christianity was supposed to carry on exactly like the Judaic religion .. the culture was supposed to be the same, the practices the same.. the ONLY difference was supposed to be one group had a "savior" the other still did not.. ideally all Jews where supposed to convert to Christianity.. but did not. Christianity and Judaism is EXACTLY the same thing, which makes all the hatred between them even more saddening. However, Christianity carried to Europe .. where it was mixed with the local religions. Not uncommon in anyway.. when Christianity mixed in Arabia, it had to conform to the region.. because religions are plastic, the mold over cultures, and in turn, cultures mold around religions. Which is why Islam is so vastly different then Judaism or Christianity..

Christianity is absolutely 100% a Roman religion. Judaism is a Semitic religion and Islam is an Arab religion.

To say however that Catholicism does not "account for the true meaning of Christianity" that is fundamentally wrong..

Christianity is what it is because Rome made it that way..

Not just the Church.. in it's infancy did not exert that much control, the Roman State controlled it..

In a sense, no, the Roman empire never died. But then again, we have to be intelligent enough to understand the difference between the Holy See and the Catholic religion ..

Not all Catholics revere the Pope. I never did.. didn't really talk about him much in Catholic school classes either.. we talked about the Bible, the Religion and the various mythologies of the religion ..

The Pope also only exerts control over Church Doctrine.. that is to say, Church Law..

In the end, personal beliefs regardless of religion and faith, is decided in ones own head.

despite the standards it’s founder laid out

And what would those standards be? Will you now quote from a book written and controlled for centuries by Catholics? The Bible is no where near the original translations of the first Greek Bibles..

Also, the Greek Orthodox Church, arguably the single oldest denomination is quite like Rome..

Culture has a vast influence in all religions..

It’s about Catholicism.

The original topic of this thread is solved, YES Catholics are by definition Christian.

Whether you think they "act" Christian is of personal OPINION.

If you want to discuss the practices and failures of Catholicism we can discuss all of the Christian World, the Mother Church is the Mother of all Churches, even the wildly speculative protestants.

Something tells me Jesus didn't play a guitar and convulse on the floor as a man in a $5k suite told him for a large donation he would take the demons away.

Roman Catholic Church is untainted and pure in it’s beliefs.

It's an opinion. Some Catholics become protestant, some protestants become Catholic.. it's all based on how you prefer to express your beliefs.. no one binds anyone to anything..

The claim that they are proclaiming the tenets of Jesus as He intended - the 'Real' Christianity.

Seeing as they where founded nearly 2,000 years ago, and most protestant religions where founded 400-1 years ago ... well, ya, I could see how they can make that assertion ..

But they are not really Christians in the sense that Catholics would define it because they are really just a faction or sect of Judaism.

Technically, Catholicism is just a sect of Judaism as well .. it all started as a Cult .. if we believe the histories behind it..

That’s what Christ was: a Jew that wanted to reform Judaism, not create a whole new entity.

He generated a void of power.. and sadly all power is consumed and abused by Man.. always will .. forever and ever..

reply to post by jmdewey60

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Sooo what would the perfect Christian religion be then? Which denomination got it right?

reply to post by Rockpuck

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Actually, I think you and I are arguing the same point here. Let me state my views this way, as I quote liberally and form a synopsis from ‘The History of the Catholic Church According to passenger’:

Judaism was an established religion for a number of years. A man named Jesus comes along. He is a born and bred Jew. He thinks that the Jews are not practicing what the Law is really instructing them to do. He thinks they are following the statutes without understanding the meaning behind them. He decides to teach the original intent and meaning of the Law as He sees it. He even claims to be the true leader they have been waiting for.* The Jewish Powers-that-Be, don’t care all that much for this kind of rabble-rousing – they have a big investment in the way things are. So, they get the local warlords to hang Him up on a tree.

That settles that, or at least they thought it did. But Jesus had some people (other Jews) He actually convinced to listen to Him. They soon set about arguing about what He was talking about. Then a guy shows up, who never even met Jesus, and just happens to be a former agent of the local warlords, and starts telling everyone what Jesus really meant. This continued for quite some time.

Many changes started to come about with this group and about four-centuries later they finally get enough power to start organizing a real juggernaut, with the help of the local warlord of the time. Soon, the simplest concepts are covered up with volumes of legal verbiage and theological rhetoric – there is money to be made and power to be grabbed, after all, and you have to be able to justify yourself. This is where the Catholic Church really comes into it’s own. They grab bits and pieces of local lore and legend, add some stuff they just made up on the spur of the moment and throw in some legal methodologies and grafted holidays. They also quickly learn to stomp the beJezzus out of anyone that dares disagree – especially those pesky Jews (ironically enough) and members of their own flock that question the way things are being run.

Sometimes, they change their minds on a given subject a number of times. Sometimes, they stick with it, even after centuries of reality have proven them wrong. Nevertheless, they continue through with the protest that they really are doing the work of their founder even though His biography often shows different. But that never troubles them much because they'll interpret it for you they way they think it should be anyway. If you don't accept that interpretation - well to Hell with You (literally).

To me, this about sums it up.


*Now whether or not this is because He actually wrote the original version or just thinks He did, is a matter of faith. Therefore, the legitimacy here is open to speculation.

reply to post by jmdewey60

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No offence taken, and I do get your humour. I am not defending anyone. I merely pointed out some inaccuracies.

Originally posted by MikeboydUS
reply to post by Robhaidheuch

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If Satan lurks anywhere, he lurks behind the virulent and irrational psychosis of Anti Semitism/Anti Judaism. He is the adversary and accuser of the human race, but even more than that he is the Accuser and Adversary of Israel. From Pharoah to Hitler, the children of Israel have endured and survived thousands of years of hell on earth unlike any other people in history.

While we are at it, why does "anti-Semitism" refer only to sentiments expressed against Jews? Aren't Arabs also Semitic?

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