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Are Catholics Christian?

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posted on Jul, 7 2008 @ 02:44 PM
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reply to post by passenger
 


Allow me to apologize. When I wrote:

'an assembly of wrongs that you believe were committed by the Church.'

I should have written:

'an assembly of wrongs that you believe were committed in toto by the Church.'

I should have also been more clear that I was including this statement by you:

'I could list a whole heavenly host of other iniquities, irregularities, falsehoods, felonies and misdemeanors and out-and-out Evils that the Catholic Church has birthed, but space prohibits. '

When talking about what you believe the Church has been responsible for.

My fault completely.

As a side note, there seems to be an inference that I am anti-semitic or blame Jews for something. Nothing could be further from the truth. Maybe I'm reading it wrong and you meant to say that someone who is delusional enough to believe that someone who believes that the Catholic Church should be held blameless for things such as the Inquisition(s) would believe such calumny?

Eric




posted on Jul, 7 2008 @ 02:51 PM
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reply to post by passenger
 


I don't agree with capital punishment, and I think Spain during the Inquisition was wrong to kill traitors, as was England, Germany, France, and the rest of the countries of Europe, which all used capital punishment. England, particularly, made it an art form of cruelty. I do believe one has the right to self-defence, as no one has the right to try and take my life, the life of my wife, or my children. You're damn right I would defend them. But why is the Catholic Church being singled out, when grosser barbaric acts, such as the devout Christian Oliver Cromwell's slaughter of Irish and Scots makes the Spanish Inquisition pale by comparison? I detect anti-Catholic bigotry. By the way, we Scots and Irish were plantation slaves of the English long before the African, and the persecuted Jew was not unique to suffering barbarity at the hands of evil men.



posted on Jul, 7 2008 @ 02:51 PM
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Originally posted by passenger
The Catechism keeps being brought up as if it was the final word on what being a Christian means.

WRONG.

The Catechism keeps being brought up because you people keep spouting 'the Catholic Church believes this ... ' or 'the Catholic Church teaches that .... ' crap when in fact the Church believes and/or teaches no such thing. The point is that if you had bothered to go and actually read what the Church teaches instead of spouting nonsense then you wouldn't be in the pickle you are in right now.

That pickle being this - exposed for making false statements about the Catholic faith.

Ya'll THINK you know what the Church says .. but it is very obvious that you don't.

READ the Catechism and LEARN what the Church believes.

If you want to rant anti-Catholic bigotry after learning what the church REALLY believes, then go ahead. But right now you are making up a lot of bunk and spouting.

THAT is why the catechism keeps being brought up. NOT because it is 'as if it was the final word on what being a Christian means.' You got THAT wrong as well. :shk:



posted on Jul, 7 2008 @ 02:58 PM
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Replies in order follow the quote.


Originally posted by passenger
1) Christ set out the standards. The Catholic Church does not follow them in any form, shape or manner. It has not in the past and it does not today.

2) Catholics are claiming to be Christian simply based upon their own definitions and standards of what that means.

3) Standards which the Church has taught them, interprets and modifies for them

4) and which do not incorporate well with what the Bible actually says.

5) The Catechism keeps being brought up as if it was the final word on what being a Christian means.

6) The other point remains; If Jesus is God, then He either condones the prior criminal activities of the Church or He doesn’t. I have yet to see anyone reply with how they can justify the Church’s actions according to the teachings of Christ.


1) That is simply ridiculous and exemplifies the problems with making blanket commendations. Are you trying to say that Catholics and/or the Catholic Church doesn't attempt to feed the hungry, clothe the naked or give aid to the sick?

2) What standards and definitions should a Catholic use? Their own and those accepted by a billion other Catholics or yours? When looking at the amount of Christian denominations that are out there it is hard to say that there is one single set of objective and absolute standards that can be agreed upon.

3) This is silly and presupposes that Catholics are not in agreement and accordance with the teachings of the Church. The Catholic Church can teach something AND Catholics can agree with that teaching.

4) Again, that is highly subjective. Obviously Catholics believe that the teachings of the Church are NOT in opposition to the Scriptures.

5) No, the catechism is being brought up as a plea to read what the Catholic Church actually teaches as opposed to what you think it teaches.

6) Your not going to find anyone who is going to attempt to justify evil actions taken by members of the Church or by Catholics. Because these things happened does not make the Church or its members non-Christians. It's been said before, the Apostles were Christians and they committed actions that Christ would condemn.

Eric



posted on Jul, 7 2008 @ 03:03 PM
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Originally posted by FlyersFan

Originally posted by doctorex
they changed it to fit the pagan fertility festival to convert the pagans. All of "Christianity",

So what? Back then the Church didn't know the exact dates and therefore they backed dates up against the other festivals in order to draw people into the faith. SO WHAT? It means nothing.

Dates had to be picked to celebrate these events. They were brilliant in the way they brought Christianity to the pagans. It was a job well done.


Who said they didn't know the dates? If I can understand what day it was from scripture, then surely they could have. Also what does God say about following the traditions and ways of the heathen or conforming to the world? You may not think it was a big deal, but I'm sure God has other ideas. The Israelites were punished time and time again for the exact same thing. Jesus said he was the way and the truth, he didn't say "I am the way and the truth, but it's okay to change what I say or what is taught in scripture to a lie to draw others into the church". Jesus said that only those who come to him in truth are first called by his father, so changing the dates to draw people to the church is showing a complete lack of faith in the power of God to do just that. What you end up with is a "church" full of false Christians, instead of of what the the greek word for church actually means, ekklasia, a CALLED-OUT assembly.


Originally posted by FlyersFan
BTW .. doctorex ... you have not admitted your error on the 'father' subject. See page 5 of this thread.


That would be because I made no error. Calling your physical father or your ancestors a father is not what Christ was talking about, nor was he talking about loving somebody LIKE a father loves a son. Read in context what Christ is talking about. He is talking about the RELIGIOUS authorities of the day...

2 Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat:
3 All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.
4 For they bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers.
5 But all their works they do for to be seen of men: they make broad their phylacteries, and enlarge the borders of their garments,
6 And love the uppermost rooms at feasts, and the chief seats in the synagogues,
7 And greetings in the markets, and to be called of men, Rabbi, Rabbi.
8 But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren.
9 And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.

He is saying call no religious leader Rabbi or your father as a religious title, just as a catholic priest is called Father so-and-so, and I would think Holy Father would be much worse. Notice also he says these type of people "make broad their phylacteries, and enlarge the borders of their garments", sound like anyone you know?



img.timeinc.net...

The title Holy Father belongs to one....

John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.

[edit on 7/7/08 by doctorex]



posted on Jul, 7 2008 @ 03:08 PM
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reply to post by josephine
 




whoa, you just came here to bash everyone,


Only the narrow minded and dimwitted mongoloid theocrats.



well you say yourself you hate christians, and you dont even
know what one is.


If there is one thing I hate, it is unintelligent people trying to fit into a conversation.

And the only thing I hate more then that..

Is unintelligent people trying to fit into a conversation using a random collection of out-of-context bible scriptures.

But you are correct, I do hate Christians. Not all. Just those like your self.


[edit on 7/7/2008 by Rockpuck]



posted on Jul, 7 2008 @ 03:13 PM
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reply to post by FlyersFan
 



You have never read the Catechism of the Catholic Church, have you?

I have and I have two Catholic Bibles, a pile of Catholic books, books about the Catholic Church and biographies of certain Catholic theologians and about 50 volumes of writings of the early Church fathers.
It might make you feel better for you to imagine that I am speaking out of ignorance, but that is not the case.
I have spent as much time in the local Catholic Church as a lot of my Catholic friends.
I was going out for two years with the woman who did the music and some of the readings for the Mass, during that time.
I have been blessed by a monk of a Holy order and received the Holy Spirit amongst these people.
I have nothing against Catholics, as people, I just see the organization for what it is.


[edit on 7-7-2008 by jmdewey60]



posted on Jul, 7 2008 @ 03:27 PM
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reply to post by Rockpuck
 



Catholicism reveres the Mother, who bore the labor of birthing and raising the Lord's son..

According to the Catholic religion, Mary did not give birth to Jesus.
She is a perpetual virgin, meaning that Jesus was in her womb and then, just appeared outside of it, without going through the birth canal.

[edit on 7-7-2008 by jmdewey60]



posted on Jul, 7 2008 @ 03:41 PM
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Originally posted by jmdewey60



Catholicism reveres the Mother, who bore the labor of birthing and raising the Lord's son..

According to the Catholic religion, Mary did not give birth to Jesus.
She is a perpetual virgin, meaning that Jesus was in her womb and then, just appeared outside of it, without going through the birth canal.

[edit on 7-7-2008 by jmdewey60]


I'm not familiar with this.

Can you please provide your sources?

Thanks!

Eric



posted on Jul, 7 2008 @ 03:50 PM
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I am a Christian

I am a devout Roman Catholic.

I praise and worship God in the Trinity: The Father, Jesus and the Holy Spirit.

Jesus instituted the Church when he gave the leadership of it to Peter. "You are Peter and upon this rock I shall establish my church and the gates of Hell shall not pervail against it. What ever you Peter loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven, whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven." Thus the first Pope was established and given authority to serve the flock.

"Unless you eat of my flesh and drink of my blood you shall not have life within you." - St. John.

Catholic merely means Universal and it means all Christians who follow the teaching Jesus left us. We worship togehter, we celebrate Mass together, we care for each other and all the people of the world.

The Catholic Church has built more schools and universities than any other group[ of people inthe history of the world.

The Catholic Church has built more hospitals and healthcare facilities thatn other other group of people in the world.

The Catholic Church is the worlds largest charitable organization.

The Catholic Church teaches us a moral code which wehn followed protects our hearts and minds from making terrible mistakes which make our souls suffer. But the church also knows we are all sinners and helps up in the sacrament of reconciliation. The church also helps heal those who have suffered much.

We are Christian. The original Catholics, Jesus' apostles wrote the new testament, it is the story of the catholic church. It was catholic monks who painstakingly preserved these words int he dead language of Latin so that mistranslation of the vernacular would not bastardize the text....IT WAS THE CATHOLIC CHURCH WHICH CANONIZED THE BIBLE, PRESERVED AND COPIED IT BY HAND SO THAT THE WORD WOULD SPREAD THE GLOBE.

If you are a christian, learn objective christian history.



posted on Jul, 7 2008 @ 04:08 PM
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reply to post by Rockpuck
 



Catholicism and their past crimes?
.....It is thus, no surprise that the political entity exacted crimes upon the innocent, like all government and tyrants do.. It has nothing to do with the Dogma which guides the Catholic Church, which is a separate entity then the political structure.....
.... the Protestant churches likewise committed awful acts...... pushing opposing religions to the bottom rungs of society....

I am afraid that the basis of the Church's political power comes from its religious power.

The issue of European religious union is one that has been concealed even deeper than the plans for political union, but the ratchet towards a Catholic Europe is just as real. The Pope's recent demand that 'God' be featured in the emerging European constitution has been echoed by many leading Catholic politicians and bishops. While on the surface such a reference may offend only Europe's atheist and humanist contingent, it must be observed that when the Vatican refers to God, she sees herself as God's infallible vice-regent upon earth, the leading organ of divine expression; indeed, according to its publication Dominus Iesus (5 September 2000), as the only mediator in the salvation of God's elect, insisting that all other Churches, including the Church of England, 'are not Churches in the proper sense'.

The Roman Church is founded on a political dogma claiming that the Pope is 'supreme ruler of the world'; superior to all kings, prime ministers and presidents. These spiritual and temporal claims remain very much fundamental dogmas of Catholic teaching, permitting the Pope, through Cardinal Ratzinger, the Prefect for the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, to issue clear directives to Catholic politicians on how they should vote. Since their obedience is considered a 'moral duty', devolve everything to the overwhelmingly Catholic European Council of Ministers, Commission and Parliament, and the ultimate Caesar is the Pope.

www.exorthodoxforchrist.com...
I offer this as an example of the Pope's power over politics not being a thing of the past.
The Church depends on its followers to behave in the political arena in a way that is beneficial to the Church's own power.
It, in turn, does not recognize the legitimacy of any other church.
So, our views about the Catholic Church is not just a matter of academics.
Calling evil good is the worst thing anyone can do and we are guilty, if we turn a blind eye on what is going on, around us, and how that old Power is rising, again.



posted on Jul, 7 2008 @ 04:16 PM
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reply to post by EricD
 



I'm not familiar with this.

Can you please provide your sources?


The perpetual virginity of Mary, a doctrine of the Roman Catholic[1] Church, and also of the Eastern Orthodox Church and Oriental Orthodoxy, which in their liturgy repeatedly refer to Mary as "ever virgin",[2] affirms Mary's "real and perpetual virginity even in the act of giving birth to the Son of God made Man."

en.wikipedia.org...
Just so you know that I did not make this up.



posted on Jul, 7 2008 @ 04:22 PM
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reply to post by VIKINGANT
 



Honestly, I can't believe this thread has lasted this long... And it is even flagged?!

No offence, but wouldn't it be simpler and more elegant before asking such a kindergarten question here to just google for "Catholic"?
I just did, and the second hit is the Wikipedia entry.



posted on Jul, 7 2008 @ 05:57 PM
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reply to post by jmdewey60
 




According to the Catholic religion, Mary did not give birth to Jesus.


Which displays your ignorance on the Church..



I am afraid that the basis of the Church's political power comes from its religious power.


Which shows your ignorance in the matters of Human affairs and basic political process, not to mention the aspects of control and government..



I offer this as an example of the Pope's power over politics not being a thing of the past.
The Church depends on its followers to behave in the political arena in a way that is beneficial to the Church's own power.


Yes, it was in fact the ignorant few like your self, who think themselves learned in matters they don't understand that came to the conclusion that JFK, if elected President, would give control of the US to the Pope. Obviously wrong, on all counts, you also again fail to understand the principles behind the ancient Roman seat of Power, the Holy See, and it's correlation with religion.. The Papacy is the Monarch of a Kingdom, it is a Theocratic government that is bound by religious law.. it in it's self however, is not a religion .. because only Dogma can be considered a religion ..



It, in turn, does not recognize the legitimacy of any other church.


Does not recognize their authority.. as most other denominations are weakly centered, and vary widely, I see no reason for the Pope to see any other denomination as "legitimate" aside from well established Orthodox religions and the likes of the Anglican Church and Lutheranism..

However, the Church recognizes all Protestants as Christians..



So, our views about the Catholic Church is not just a matter of academics.


You have given shamelessly wild assumptions and nothing more.



Calling evil good is the worst thing anyone can do and we are guilty, if we turn a blind eye on what is going on, around us, and how that old Power is rising, again.


Actually the Church is dieing, if you knew anything about Catholicism, they are on the brink of reform, or die out in the Western World.. however, you should know, the worst crime one can commit is to control and regulate the beliefs of another Human Being.. you can say Catholics are not Christian all you want, you do so through ignorance and self consumption.



posted on Jul, 7 2008 @ 06:22 PM
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Originally posted by FlyersFan

Originally posted by doctorex
Saying Christ died Friday, and rose Sunday, actually denies the sign that Christ said would prove he was the messiah, it therefore denies Christ....


At EVERY mass, in every Catholic Church, all around the world this exchange happens.

The Priest says - "let us proclaim the mystery of faith'

The people say - "Christ has died. Christ has risen. Christ will come again."

Between that and the creed that is proclaimed each and every mass -

Christ is not denied. The fact that He rose from the dead is proclaimed and not denied. The fact that He's the messiah is proclaimed and not denied. The fact that He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead is proclaimed and not denied. The fact that these things happen 'in fulfilment of the scriptures' is stated each and every mass and is not denied.

Christ is not denied. Neither is his mission.



If you believe and celebrate that Christ died on friday afternoon, and rose sunday morning, are you or are you not denying the only sign that Christ said would prove he was the messiah? I could start a church tomorrow, that says every meeting everything you just stated, but that doesn't mean it is the church of God. I could talk about Christ until I'm blue in the face, but that doesn't mean I am following him. Even the demons believe and tremble, but that doesn't mean they follow Christ, nor is everyone who speaks about Jesus and what he did considered to be following him....

Matthew 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.



posted on Jul, 7 2008 @ 06:23 PM
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reply to post by Rockpuck
 


haha, I was in this "conversation" long before you showed up
with your meaningless input.

my quotes show the basis of this conversation, question everything,
which your little closed mind cant comprehend.

awww, you hurt my feelings so,
Johng15:18
"If the world hates you, know that it has hated me before it hated you."

Yes, all true christians are hated by the world, nothing new there, its
expected.



posted on Jul, 7 2008 @ 06:27 PM
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reply to post by kacou
 


There were actually a few times boyth Byzantine Emperors and Popes tried to stop the carnage and found themselves powerless and threatened.
Everything they did was undone and ignored either by themselves, in the case of the Emperors, or by later Popes. By the time of the Inquisition the Church had become thoroughly anti judaic. The original purpose of the Inqusition was to hunt down "Cryptic Jews" who practiced in secret.

So what little was done, was not enough and too late. Constantine got the ball rolling, the momentum of hate and insanity was just too powerful to the few who recognized it had gotten out of control. By the time of Martin Luther the hate and insanity was embraced by Papal Bulls, which I listed.

Only after the carnage of World War 2, the Holocaust, and the rebirth of the nation of Israel did finally the insanity and persecution subside by the Church and its members.

I would also like to explaim my point of view here. I am not Anti-Catholic. I am not Protestant. I am not Anti Protestant. I do not Hate Catholics. I do not Hate anyone that calls themselves Christian.

My point was and still is that the Apostles would feel Alien in a Basilica/Cathedral filled with alien imagery, with a celibate Clergy who had liturgy in Latin, and ignored the Sabbath.

Someone would have to sit them down and explain everything and in the end I think they would be confused. If I sat down with them and told them about the atrocities committed I think they would be disgusted.

I dont blame modern Catholics or the modern post 1964 Church for the hell on earth that Jews had to endure for 1500 years in Europe. I dont think the Apostles would blame living people for the sins of the dead either.

So my goal is not to bash or hate. My goal is not to convert. I am here to enlighten and try to get people to think. I want people to go and research, learn about history, analyze and understand things.

Thats it. No Hate. Only Understanding.

[edit on 7/7/08 by MikeboydUS]



posted on Jul, 7 2008 @ 06:46 PM
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Originally posted by AdAstra
reply to post by VIKINGANT
 

Honestly, I can't believe this thread has lasted this long... And it is even flagged?!

To be honest it has taken me by surprise as well.


No offence, but wouldn't it be simpler and more elegant before asking such a kindergarten question here to just google for "Catholic"?
I just did, and the second hit is the Wikipedia entry.

If you are only commenting based on the length of the thread please take the time to actually read it. I did not ask why is the sky blue or what is Gods favorite colour.
If you have read it, then you will see from the complexity of the answers it is far from a kindergarden question.



posted on Jul, 7 2008 @ 07:25 PM
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reply to post by jmdewey60
 


You are on the right track. Yet to be specificJews in the time of our Lord called Rome “Babylon” among themselves so if overheard they would not be in trouble from their oppressors the Romans. Please do take the time to read the passages in Revelation concerning the Whore of Babylon in this light and it will send a shiver down your spine. Be aware the seven “mountains” of King James version is directly translated to “hills” and that Rome is the City on Seven Hills! What city but the Vatican would be drunk on the blood of the saints? You will lastly realize the truth spoken at the last passage. The Whore has many sisters.
All of the organized churches of “Christianity” are wrong because they are not based in the religion our Lord chose, that of Judaism!
The Roman church changed Tekar to Tekah when translating about the Father of Yeshua and his father became a carpenter instead of Rabbi. Rabbi is what both Yeshua/Jesus and his earthly father both were and nothing else, never a carpenter!
All of these false churches are based upon Paul AKA Sol who is in my opinion the Anti-Christ. He lead the Roman Empire into a war against our Lords people that continues to this day.
The Universal Church of Rome is EVIL. It is even to blame for the organizations of Satanists by giving them the rich focal points of corruption to plant the half truths of the lies that make up all the blind followers of Satan, the once noble angle general at the point of the vine of light that became a glutton by his own evil action of rebellion.
Martin Luther expressed the EVIL of the Church of Rome in a mural showing the Pope and all his wealthy escorts and depravities aside from a mural showing the poor unadorned Yeshua/Jesus entering the same city of Jerusalem.
I know our Lord lives and this gives me so much strength and has helped me achieve many good deeds. I know He did not need to be born of a virgin of any of those other lies that were so popular in Rome during his days in the flesh. Yet even now these very lies keep many modern people from learning of Him. What a shame, what a waste.
I have known many good Catholics but the Church of Rome is the Church of Satan and in the final days of this age Satan himself will be crowned Pope. For the Son of the Living God (Ya-ha-vey) proclaimed rightfully that Satan is the Prince of this world. Little wonder that Catholicism is so popular today.
Some may consider this over the top but it is the truth of how I feel and see this subject.



posted on Jul, 7 2008 @ 07:52 PM
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Originally posted by MikeboydUS
reply to post by kacou
 

So my goal is not to bash or hate. My goal is not to convert. I am here to enlighten and try to get people to think. I want people to go and research, learn about history, analyze and understand things.

Thats it. No Hate. Only Understanding.

[edit on 7/7/08 by MikeboydUS]


you have pinpointed the problem correctly.
The very important question that the OP has given us, is not only from
him/herself but of God, as I have shown in my previous quotes what
God asks us to do, dont forget Satan is lurking in this post, all replies
are to help you, seek unto yourself, dont ever accept what man
tells you, do not accept what I tell you, but question it and prove it.

For as long as I live, I will never tell a man I hate him!!




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