I find alot of people are very confused on this subject.

It is a simple answer.

if you beleive in Jesus(christ, Son of god) and that he died on the cross for mans sins you are there for a christian.

Catholic church pulled away from the original church(orthodox) now called eastern orthodox church in the 11th century due to diffrences in who had power and controlled the church.

In those days there was 5 citys that decided what happen in the church(Constantinopole, Rome, jerusalem, alexandria , antioch)

So for any one to say they are catholic but not a christian then means they really dont know what they are talking about.

I dont think anyone can argue that the Jews probably had and have it worse than just about anyone in the world,...ever.

Originally posted by josephine
Jesus did not come to do things his own way, he came to set things straight and show how they were supposed to be done from the
beginning.

Christ is God. As you say - he came to 'set things straight' ... which means CHANGE.

Originally posted by josephine
Jesus did not mean it literally when he spoke of eating his flesh
and drinking his blood.

He was very clear. He said 'amen amen, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood you have no eternal life in you'. When people walked away, he did not stop them and say 'i'm just using imagry'.

Originally posted by jmdewey60
There has always been a contingent of Mary worshipers in the Catholic Church.

Provide official proof that the Catholic Church 'worships' Mary.
Good luck with that.

What we have now, by way of a Maryology, is not what was in the beginning.

NOTHING in Christianity is as it was 'in the beginning'. Nothing.

Originally posted by passenger
you need to explain how the Catholic Church is actually doing the work of the Lord. If it hasn’t been, then what good is it?

Your bias was in full bloom with that 'question' and your own response to it. Read your bible. Christ instituted His church and picked his Apostles but they made mistakes even while they were with Him when He was alive on Earth. Heck .. Jesus ordained them at the Last Supper and then a few hours later they all ran away. Humans make mistakes. It's what we do. Make mistakes ... fall ... and then learn from those mistakes and repent and get up to try again. Mistakes don't make people less Christian.

Originally posted by gate13
if you beleive in Jesus(christ, Son of god) and that he died on the cross for mans sins you are there for a christian.

Add to that - that He rose from the dead - and you have it exactly.

So for any one to say they are catholic but not a christian then means they really dont know what they are talking about.

Very true! It's rather foolish.

I advise actually reading the Catechism and learning the truth of what the Church believes.

[edit on 7/7/2008 by FlyersFan]

Are Catholics Christians?

Hmmm...those arguing that Catholics are not Christians - are they themselves Christians?

I would tend to think that the majority of the Christian populace out there are not Christians. The fruit falling from the tree is either rotten or non existent.
"You shall know them by their fruit...or lack of..."

Just a glimpse at actions: fear, judgement, hatred, fear...oh, and did I say fear?

I would say people that are Christians would be people like Eckhart Tolle - but then again, true Christians go beyond the labels of a name and actually show fruit in action and in thought.

As for catholics I would say Henri Nouwen and Thomas Merton (his book seeds of contemplation is quite good) were examples of people truly seeking the path and more on it then the sheep that follow the mega church pastors of the world. (and even mini church pastors.)

"You need no teacher the spirit is within you."

So in the end it matters not what someone says about you or a group of people.
What is it you know and say about yourself? People are so willing to dish out righteous judgement to support their egoic story of being 'right' and less willing to take the path of humility to let God be the judge as he "lets the rain fall on the good and the bad".

"You will the truth when you seek with all your heart".
Again, all your heart, not in the fears of your own dogmas.

Patience...growth takes time.
Even the most stubborn of seeds can grow up to be the most beautiful of plants.
Look at Paul...

Many think they are like Paul - but far from it in their lack of understanding where he is coming from. If they could take the bit about Love, that Paul wrote, and memorize it...meditate on it, and put it in daily, hourly, minute by minute action...then they would "get it".

So are Catholics Christian?
Are labels labels? It is as it is, and only the fruit matters - the individual path that each must take is set out before them.

Peace

dAlen

Originally posted by doctorex
they changed it to fit the pagan fertility festival to convert the pagans. All of "Christianity",

So what? Back then the Church didn't know the exact dates and therefore they backed dates up against the other festivals in order to draw people into the faith. SO WHAT? It means nothing.

Dates had to be picked to celebrate these events. They were brilliant in the way they brought Christianity to the pagans. It was a job well done.

BTW .. doctorex ... you have not admitted your error on the 'father' subject. See page 5 of this thread.

Originally posted by FlyersFan

Originally posted by doctorex
they changed it to fit the pagan fertility festival to convert the pagans. All of "Christianity",

So what? Back then the Church didn't know the exact dates and therefore they backed dates up against the other festivals in order to draw people into the faith. SO WHAT? It means nothing.

Dates had to be picked to celebrate these events. They were brilliant in the way they brought Christianity to the pagans. It was a job well done.

Hi FF,
I think you have inadvertantly brought this thread back to the original point. Did the Catholic Church bring christianity to the Pagans or did the Pagans adopt some Christian teachings and call themselves Catholic?

Back then the Church didn't know the exact dates

The catholic church was only 300 years give or take after the time of Christ. We in modern times have been celebrating Xmas, easter and so on for a lot longer than that without losing track.
Also, I thought the Jews of old (Who had been observing passover and other events for thousands of years) and the subsequent Christians were very particular about celebrating the various festivals and Holy days.

They should not have 'lost track' of when they were within 300 years unless they were changed intentionaly by 'higher powers' for other purposes.

I worked for a company owned by two brothers who were Christians.
They decided to hold a Christian study time, at work.
Most of the people were Mexican, but they showed up and said, We are not Christians, we are Catholic.
Even though they did not consider themselves as Christian, they were willing to sit in on a Christian meeting.
So if the question was, are some Catholics Christian, I would have to say, Yes.
If the question is, Is the Catholic Church Christian, I would say, No.
The Catholic Church is Pagan and for Pagans.
Whatever good they do to promote Christ, is negated by what they do to neutralize Christ.
They take away his rightful position by taking it for themselves, giving it to Mary, substituting a false Trinity, and overriding the God of the Old Testament.
The actual "Church" was established by unconverted pagans who replaced their former positions in the Pagan State Religion with new positions in the new Christian State Religion.

I think it may be hard for anyone in our modern day to make the claim of being a Christians. Christians are meant to be followers of Christ's teachings and doctrines, however, with all the various translations and purposfull mistranslations which one of us here can say they have ever actually read the words of Christ?

Jesus's language was obviously not english, the versions of his words we have now have been translated multiple times and depending upon your translation of the Bible they are more or less loyal to the greek, Aramaic, vulgate etc of the originals.

In fact, most people who claim to be Christians are simply followers of the law of man and of a religion based on the original story but bearing little resemblance to it's original form. Try an experiment, tell a Christian you know about how some of the fundamental doctrines they believe in weren't even around or unified until 325 AD at the First Council of Nicea, you will be repaid with glassed over looks.

I brought up the issue of the differing opinions on the Trinity prior to 325 AD to a Pastor I was speaking with and he has since refused to speak with me again.

Originally posted by VIKINGANT
Hi FF,
I think you have inadvertantly brought this thread back to the original point. Did the Catholic Church bring christianity to the Pagans or did the Pagans adopt some Christian teachings and call themselves Catholic?

But therein lies the seeds of the answer to your question. The issue of Pagan holidays, or any other any other faith’s, is a symbolic expression of faith, an outward show. It’s not really what is important. The underlying morals are what count.

Jesus himself argued with the Pharisees on precisely this point; it’s the Spirit of the Law – NOT the Letter of the Law that counts. He observed Jewish Law himself and repeatedly exhorted his followers to do the same. As previously pointed out, He stated that ’not one stroke’ of the Law was done away with. What He was concerned with was getting the Jews to understand the underlying meaning and intent of the laws. The Catholic Church takes the diabolically opposed viewpoint; that the Form is what matters. It is of paramount importance to the Church. The very nature of the Church playing form over substance is what undoes their claim to be Christian because it flies in opposition to the teachings of their claimed founder.

That being said, it brings me upon this:

Originally posted by Robhaidheuch
You choose to concentrate on contentious historical … as 'evidence' that the Catholic Church is not Christian, but fail to show these events in a proper historical context. First, one has to address the questions 'Can self-defence, war, or capital punishment ever be morally justified?' I would be interested to learn your opinion.

“Contentious”? In what sense? The Catholic Church conceived these events and untold numbers died as the result. How is that contentious? That’s like saying the statement that Hitler was responsible for WWII is “contentious”.

Capital Punishment: According to Jesus – NO. You have read the story of Mary Magdalene, a.k.a. the fallen woman, etc.? My reading of that story is that Jesus did NOT approve of capital punishment. Perhaps, I read it wrong. Can you give me an instance where He approved of it? As to self-defense, where does Jesus ever state that war and (physical) self-defense is appropriate? I recall something about turning the other cheek…

As to my ‘evidence’ that the Church is not Christian, it is what it is. Jesus himself said that not one deed would be unaccounted for. He further stated that great misfortune would befall those that lead others astray. You mean to stand on the position that the Crusades, Inquisition, et al, were not leading people astray from the teachings of the Lord?

As, to my personal opinions as to whether war is ever justified, that is not relevant. I’m arguing that according to the tenets and teachings of Jesus such things are not. And further that the Catholic Church has made it a matter of practice to ignore His teachings – thus it is NOT Christian.

Originally posted by jmdewey60
Most of the people were Mexican, but they showed up and said, We are not Christians, we are Catholic.

Obviously they were just getting something lost in the translation.

Originally posted by VIKINGANT
They should not have 'lost track' of when they were within 300 years unless they were changed intentionaly by 'higher powers' for other purposes.

I'm sure that they had no clue of exact days. They were probably close on the time period and just put the holidays on Pagan days in order to attract members. From a business standpoint it's good marketing. It in no way takes away from the celebration of Christ's birth, death, or that He rose from the dead. THOSE are what are celebrated. It was a brilliant marketing strategy.

Originally posted by jmdewey60
Whatever good they do to promote Christ, is negated by what they do to neutralize Christ.

You have never read the Catechism of the Catholic Church, have you?

Originally posted by passenger
The Catholic Church takes the diabolically opposed viewpoint; that the Form is what matters.

You haven't read the Catechism either, have you?

Jesus himself said that not one deed would be unaccounted for. He further stated that great misfortune would befall those that lead others astray. You mean to stand on the position that the Crusades, Inquisition, et al, were not leading people astray from the teachings of the Lord?

Already answered. PEOPLE within the Church mess up. The apostles did as well. Everyone does. That doesn't change the theology and the fact that the Catholic Church teaches Christ has died, Christ has risen, Christ will come again.

BTW .. You are pulling up things from 600-1000 years ago. I can pull up MODERN accounts of protestants screwing up ... does that mean that all Protestants aren't Christian??



[edit on 7/7/2008 by FlyersFan]

Are Catholics Christian?

Well.. first, let me just say this.

This thread is embarrassing. Let me tell you, I am truly disgusted by the asinine ignorance displayed in this thread so far. The unintelligent ramblings of arrogant self conceded imbeciles. No, really. Hear me out. Let me detail the asinine comments that lead me to come to this conclusion.

What is a Christian?

A Christian is called such because of one thing, and one things only. The said person believes in a man/being called Christ. By believe, I mean they believe in the process from the Judaic scriptures detailing the birth of God's Son to Man as a Savior.

For instance, Jews are not Christians, though they recognize Christ as a Prophet he was not the promised Messiah.. they still await him. Muslims, also recognize Christ, but only as a prophet.

Christians believe Christ was the promised Messiah, messenger of God and God's only Son, born of the Virgin and died, rose, and forgave you your sins.

What do Catholics believe?

Catholics believe that Christ, born of the Virgin and the Lord's only flesh and blood, died and rose, ascended to heaven and forgave our sins.

This makes them Christian.

By definition, they are Christian.

It is black and white.

Whether you believe they Act according to Christ's teachings is simply opinion.

I don't believe Baptist act in Christ's model, nor do I believe the LDS Church does, nor the various cults, however... if there is one thing I learned from Christianity...

That none of you in this thread apparently have..

It is not for me to Judge another One of Christ's biggest beliefs..

I love the teachings of Christianity, and I love the philosophies Christ brought forward.. however, I hate Christians. Their self righteous bigoted view points of self superiority destroy the model of Christ and bury it in the rubble of failed self esteem, where one tries to bring down another's belief in the hopes of solidifying their own.

Ignorance.

Act like a Christian?

Being a Christian, and acting in Christ's teachings are two different things. A Buddhist can act in Christ's image, and not be Christian. And a Christian can proclaim themselves such in the masked attempt to stave off their own knowing reality that they are anything but. A none Christian can act more Christian then a Christian can. And often do.

Christian get to wrapped up in group identity. Which denomination is better? Doesn't matter. In Christ's eyes you all act like worthless and ignorant children squabbling over name sakes instead of the message he died to deliver to you.

Pathetic.

Worship of Mary? Say what?

If you are a Christian, you MUST believe that Christ was born via the Virgin Mother. I so often wonder.. how can any respectable Christian NOT revere The woman who bore the Lord's child? A Virgin, chosen by God and God alone to give birth the Lord's son. In my opinion, she rightfully deserves her own special place of reverence amongst the Christian mythology.. no small feat I imagine.. giving birth the Lord's son..

Catholics understand this.. even in the Patriarch that runs every single Christian denomination, Catholicism reveres the Mother, who bore the labor of birthing and raising the Lord's son.. A symbol of purity, innocence, affection and love.. it is a beautiful thing to revere the Mother.

She is not Worshiped, not as a God.

Understand, there is a difference between reverence, respect, understanding then to worship.. even school children in Catholic schools understand this.

Catholicism and their past crimes?

Catholicism is a man made entity, not of divine origins.. thus it was a political entity, as all Christian churches are.. they had power, and power corrupts.. absolute corruption occurs when the ultimate title is applied to a mortal man, a man suseptable to the willing failures of man. It is thus, no surprise that the political entity exacted crimes upon the innocent, like all government and tyrants do.. It has nothing to do with the Dogma which guides the Catholic Church, which is a separate entity then the political structure..

And let's not forget, the Protestant churches likewise committed awful acts of crime and hatred.. from suppressing women, burning the innocent at stakes, or pushing opposing religions to the bottom rungs of society, as they did in England and Ireland..

Protestants are Christian, Catholics are NOT!

Such an ignorant comment is hard to read without a wince of pain, noting that such foolish people even exist..

Catholicism.. whether Protestants admit it or not... is the basis on which every denomination exist and is founded. Heresy you say? Think again. think with LOGIC not idiocracy.

The first Church founded was, most likely, the Greek Orthodox Church.. followed by the Roman Catholic Church.. the Orthodox Church is much like the Catholic church in a way, it has major differences of course, but quite similar all the same..

The Roman Catholic Church exerted influence over the Orthodox, but not by such extremes as to influence the way the churches ran..

Eventually it was decided the basis on which Catholicism was to be structured.. the books chosen for the Bible where done so by Catholics, and perhaps Pagans, many Romans where still closet Pagans in those days.. practicing the old ways when no one watched.. we see this integrated into Christian mythology.. anyways..

What book do Protestants use? Even use against Catholics? They use a Catholic book .. picked by Catholics, heathens and Pagans. hypocrisy? I think so.

The structure, the Trinity, are all Catholics in origin, while the Catholic church obviously changes through history, it is idiotic to assume that the Baptist, Methodist, Lutheran or Catholic way of practice was the "first" Christian practice..

They where a cult of Jews, following an offshoot.. thus their structure in society would not have changed by much degrees.. how the Jews acted, so did the Christians, the ONLY difference, is that they had a Messiah, the Jews did not. Rome influence the Patriarch, like all religions, they morph into the powers that adopt them, the societies they integrate with change them as much as they change the society..

All future denominations of Christianity are Catholic in principle.. everything they believe, say and act is from Catholic origins, as they all shoot from the Mother Church .. different beliefs, because of different controls.. all churches are founded by individuals seeking POWER .. yes, even puritans and baptist all founded by hypnotic preachers who would not be controlled by a hierarchy, and made cult followings for self obtained glory..

You cannot study religions, without studying the Human aspect..

Sad though, that so few people truly act with God's grace.. forsaking the teachings of Christ.. you Judge your fellow man where it is not your place to judge..

Some believe themselves superior to others because of the name of their Church. Some believe their way of thinking is the only way to possibly be accepted..

Everyone always believe THEIR way is the right way..

And almost none follow their own preachings.. none act like Christ.. like I said, so many none-Christians are much more Christian then even the most devout worshiper of Christ..

Saddening..

It is THIS bigotry that sparked the rise of political entities within religions.. structured forms of hatred and ignorance.. a Dogmatic discipline to excuse the most heinous of crimes.. 2,000 years and no one seems to have learned their lesson.. forgetting the dead so self consumed in their own thoughts and asinine assumptions that act just like those who committed the worst crimes history can detail..

And, like those who burned, raped and slaughtered the innocent, they act in a way that they believe, brings them closer to God.

You only corrupt your own soul to assume your way of belief, what ever it may be, is better then anyone else's.. God has many names, can be worshiped in an infinite way .. if someone believes in Christ, that should be enough for any true Christian to accept.. apparently it's not.

In my short stay on Earth, one thing I have certainly discern through watching the pathetic beliefs of Man, it is quite simply that it is far easier to condemn another man for his way of life then it is to reflect on your own shortcomings.

These posts keep ignoring the central question: How claim you claim to be the embodiment of a philosophy which you do not follow?
Christ set out the standards. The Catholic Church does not follow them in any form, shape or manner. It has not in the past and it does not today.

Catholics are claiming to be Christian simply based upon their own definitions and standards of what that means. Standards which the Church has taught them, interprets and modifies for them and which do not incorporate well with what the Bible actually says.
The Catechism keeps being brought up as if it was the final word on what being a Christian means. That’s wonderful. It’s like a crazy person writing a book that lays out all the reasons why they should be actually defined as sane and then claiming that anyone that disagrees with it are themselves insane.

It’s like me claiming to be a Boy Scout and then going out and causing as much crime, mischief and mayhem that I can. I can make any protestations I want, but my very actions show that I am not abiding by the standards set to be a Boy Scout, therefore I am not. I can write my own handbook on being a Boy Scout, but it is meaningless. And it follows that anyone who follows my handbook/catechism is not a Boy Scout either.

The other point remains; If Jesus is God, then He either condones the prior criminal activities of the Church or He doesn’t. I have yet to see anyone reply with how they can justify the Church’s actions according to the teachings of Christ.