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Are Catholics Christian?

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posted on Jul, 5 2008 @ 11:30 PM
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Well, I do have a wonderful thread that talks about the Illuminati's perversion of Religion. It pretty much states my opinion on Catholicism and orthodox churches in Christianity.

www.abovetopsecret.com...

Peace!




posted on Jul, 5 2008 @ 11:37 PM
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reply to post by passenger
 


If anyone can provide me a direct quote from the Scripture, where Jesus says: “I want you to stop being good Jews and come up with a whole new system. Just forget about all this Jewish stuff and make up some new ways as you go along!” - I’d like to see it.

"The Father and I are one."

It's obvious that by this statement alone a whole new theology was required.



posted on Jul, 5 2008 @ 11:46 PM
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reply to post by Robhaidheuch
 


I'm not defending the Protestants. I think the Apostles would find them as just as alien as the pretty much any Church or Denomination among the Christian faith. The Only one I think they may be able to relate to would be to some of the Ethiopian traditions.

Can you elaborate on why someone would think that Mary permanently stayed with John? I need more than a vague verse from the Gospel of John that indicates she went home with him.

Whats your interpretation of the following?
Mark 3:31-35


31 And there come his mother and his brethren; and, standing without, they sent unto him, calling him.
32 And a multitude was sitting about him; and they say unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren without seek for thee.
33 And he answereth them, and saith, Who is my mother and my brethren?
34 And looking round on them that sat round about him, he saith, Behold, my mother and my brethren!
35 For whosoever shall do the will of G-d, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.



[edit on 5/7/08 by MikeboydUS]



posted on Jul, 5 2008 @ 11:46 PM
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"CHRISTianity" is the chief modern form of paganism, and please read "catholic" in its literal meaning as "universal", i.e., the Church of Rome in one of its Counicl conveneings in the early centuries gathered together the head priests/religious leaders of the chief religions ( so-called pagan included) to hash out who was to be the worshipped "christ" (John the Baptist, or Jesus of Nazareth), and to glean from each attending pagan religion those rituals, prayers, etc that could be incorporated into a holy, AND "catholic" (note the small "C"). Significantly, the familiar "Lord's Prayer" beginning with "Our father who art in heaven..." comes verbatim from the Hindu "Rig Veda" (around 1500BC).

I have come to be comfortable with current christianity as the result of this rationale. Just needed an explanation that makes sense, and I value this definition all the more because it explains many strange-sounding christian and Catholic prayers and rituals. Catholicism to me is now linked to thousands of years of human worship (all "pagan", Horus, etc) AND IS ALL RICHER AND MORE MEANINGFUL.



posted on Jul, 6 2008 @ 12:04 AM
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reply to post by Robhaidheuch
 



i.e. liturgical sacrafice within a sanctuary presided over by priests, but with this profound difference, the only worthy and perfect sacraficial offering to God, the sacrafice of the body and blood of Christ, the sacraficial Lamb of God. "Do this in memory of me." "You shall eat the flesh, and drink the blood of the Son of Man."

Unless they are catholic, already, no one would understand this.

1 Peter 2:9-10 But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for God's own possession, that you may proclaim the excellencies of Him who has called you out of darkness into His marvelous light; for you were once not a people, but now you are the people of God; you had not received mercy, but now you have received mercy.

We are made priests, through Jesus, so we do not have to go to a temple in order to have a sacrifice done.
But is this a sacrifice?
I would say, No.

For Christ, our Passover lamb, has been sacrificed.

Jesus was a sacrifice, once for all.

so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many people.

We are to do this (drink wine and eat bread) in Remembrance of Jesus.



[edit on 6-7-2008 by jmdewey60]



posted on Jul, 6 2008 @ 12:05 AM
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reply to post by passenger
 


How do you explain away the issue of Jesus' brothers and sisters? What's your answer for Matt. 13:55?

The term cousin did not exist in the language. As I wrote before, Jesus gave Our Lady over to the care of St. John, and not to one of His imaginary siblings. We know of St. Joseph, but no mention of other children ever occurred. Jesus and Mary were unique. She was created in God's mind and shown as a vision to the angels before time existed. She is the vision that appeared in Heaven, the woman clothed with the sun standing on the moon, that we read about in Revelation. All things were created for the incarnation of Christ, and the purest creature was required for the hypostatic union. Why so determined to allege that Mary did not remain ever-virgin?



posted on Jul, 6 2008 @ 12:11 AM
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reply to post by Robhaidheuch
 


Can you show me somewhere among Jewish writings of that era where anyone has been mentioned as the son of someone and for some oddball reason as cousins to a few others? Or somewhere where cousins normally travel around with their Aunt like that? I personally have never heard of such a close relationship between nephews and an Aunt.

[edit on 6/7/08 by MikeboydUS]



posted on Jul, 6 2008 @ 12:19 AM
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reply to post by jmdewey60
 


We are to do this (drink wine and eat bread) in Remembrance of Jesus.


No you are wrong. Jesus did not say drink wine and eat bread, but that we must eat His flesh and drink His blood. At the Last Supper, after the blessing and consecration of the bread and wine He said "This is my body, this is my blood. Do this in memory of me." He had prepared the disciples some time previously by telling them that they would eat His flesh and drink His blood. On hearing this some objected and rejected what He had to say, and left His discipleship. He did not call them back to say that He was only speaking figuratively.



posted on Jul, 6 2008 @ 12:35 AM
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reply to post by MikeboydUS
 


"Can you show me somewhere among Jewish writings of that era where anyone has been mentioned as the son of someone and for some oddball reason as cousins to a few others? Or somewhere where cousins normally travel around with their Aunt like that? I personally have never heard of such a close relationship between nephews and an Aunt."

Mary of Cleophas is mentioned in the gospels as the sister of the Virgin Mary, but we know that St. Anne had only one child. The cousins were not travelling around in what we could call 'normal' circumstances, they were following the man whom they believed to be the Christ.



posted on Jul, 6 2008 @ 12:48 AM
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reply to post by Robhaidheuch
 



He had prepared the disciples some time previously by telling them that they would eat His flesh and drink His blood.

Jesus was saying this in a figurative way.
By this time the diciples would have understood this, so Jesus did not have to explain it at this time.
The followers of Jesus who would not accept this teaching had a problem with it because they took it literally.
But, Jesus did explain this, but they had no faith and it did not register with them.

47I tell you the truth, he who believes has everlasting life. 48I am the bread of life. 49Your forefathers ate the manna in the desert, yet they died. 50But here is the bread that comes down from heaven, which a man may eat and not die. 51I am the living bread that came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever. This bread is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world."

Notice the first line,"I tell you the truth, if you believe, you will have everlasting life."
Now, if you have to literally eat flesh, to live, the first statement would be false.
The last line in the passage explains what we are to believe, that Jesus will give himself as a sacrifice.


[edit on 6-7-2008 by jmdewey60]



posted on Jul, 6 2008 @ 12:49 AM
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The reason people attack Mary is because of these rediculous things that are atributed to her.
Protestants do not hate Mary, just the fake Mary that is presented to us to be worshiped as the Queen of Heaven.

[edit on 6-7-2008 by jmdewey60]



posted on Jul, 6 2008 @ 02:58 AM
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Originally posted by Robhaidheuch
reply to post by doctorex
 


"What has and still does the Catholic church have to say about that? They freely admit they have taken the authority upon themselves to change the law of God.... "

The Catholic Church did not take the authority upon itself, authority was conferred by Christ when He said to Peter "Thou art Cephas (rock), and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hell shall not prevail against her. I give to you the keys of my Kingdom. Whatsoever you bind on Earth shall be bound in Heaven. Whatsoever you loose on Earth shall be loosed in Heaven."


This is not saying that Peter has the authority to change the law of God. Read it in context, and in the greek. Christ is talking about building the church, the spiritual temple of God, built and bound not of physical stones but of members of the body of Christ. Where it says "whatsover you bind" the greek word translated as what(hos)-soever(ean) also means "who-soever". It is talking about building the church, which in the greek is ekklesia, a called out assembly, a congregation of those called by God. Peter himself describes this....

1PETER 2:4 To whom coming, as unto a living stone, disallowed indeed of men, but chosen of God, and precious,
5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.

Christ did not give Peter the authority to change whatever he saw fit and God just goes along with it. Nobody has the authority to change the law of God, especially one of the 10 commandments. Remember what Christ said concerning the law?

Matthew 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

It seems that is another point on which the Catholic Church and Christ seem to disagree.

And concerning Mary, and praying to her to draw nearer to Christ, Christ says that he himself will dwell in those who follow him, so he tells us how to get near to him. Also, listen to what Christ said concerning his mother....

MATTHEW 12:46 While he yet talked to the people, behold, his mother and his brethren stood without, desiring to speak with him.
47 Then one said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren stand without, desiring to speak with thee.
48 But he answered and said unto him that told him, Who is my mother? and who are my brethren?
49 And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren!
50 For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.



posted on Jul, 6 2008 @ 04:47 AM
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reply to post by jupiter869
 


Islam a large branch from Christianity? Timewise it might appear that way, but culturally it's a superficial connection. Islam counts Jesus as a prophet, but his teachings aren't one of its pillars.

I'm interested if you can make more of a connection that I'm not seeing.



posted on Jul, 6 2008 @ 05:15 AM
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Just to clear some details before you continue on your wonderful discussion:

- The Catholic Church does not teach about purgatory, that was just a medieval lie to scatter fear among believers. Nonsense such as purgatory and creationism are being left behind by the more intelligent modern catholics.

- The 'mass reunion' (or whatever you call it) can be celebrated any day of the week not just sunday, and recently churches are starting to give more importance to saturdays than sundays. In the past you had to go every sunday, now you can go whenever you have the chance to listen to the word of God and if its Saturday the better. Sunday nonsense is being left behind.

- The priests do not preach in Latin. Maybe they still do that in the Vatican and the more conservative churches, but usually they are given in the region's language.

- Probably this depends very much on where you live, but in my case Catholics do no preach or force their beliefs into anyone, where Christians and in a larger degree, Jehova's Witnesses do. Now, I live in a country where most of the population is Catholic, so there is not need for that.



posted on Jul, 6 2008 @ 05:18 AM
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reply to post by jmdewey60
 


"Jesus was saying this in a figurative way.
By this time the diciples would have understood this, so Jesus did not have to explain it at this time.
The followers of Jesus who would not accept this teaching had a problem with it because they took it literally.
But, Jesus did explain this, but they had no faith and it did not register with them."

I think it is made very clear in St. John's gospel:


Then the Jews started arguing among themselves, 'How can this man give us his flesh to eat?
Jesus replied to them:
"In all truth I tell you,
If you do not eat the flesh of the Son of Man
and drink his blood
you have no life in you
Anyone who does eat my flesh and drink my blood
has eternal life,
and I shall raise that person up on the last day
For my flesh is real food
And my blood is real drink.
Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood
lives in me
and I live in that person.
As the living Father sent me
and I draw life from the Father,
so whoever eats me will also draw life from me.
This is the bread that comes down from Heaven;
it is not like the bread our ancestors ate:
they are dead,
but anyone who eats this bread will live forever.

After hearing it, many of his followers said, 'This is intolerable language. How could anyone accept it?'

He went on, 'This is why I told you that no one could come to me except by the gift of the Father'
After this, many of his disciples went away and accompanied him no more.
Then Jesus said to the Twelve, 'What about you, do you want to go away too?



posted on Jul, 6 2008 @ 05:40 AM
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reply to post by Halicarnassus
 


"The Catholic Church does not teach about purgatory, that was just a medieval lie to scatter fear among believers. Nonsense such as purgatory and creationism are being left behind by the more intelligent modern catholics."

The Catholic Church has from its very beginning taught the doctrine of Purgatory, and continues to offer up prayers, petitions, penance, almsgiving, and Masses every day on behalf of souls that are suffering the pains of purification. Halloween or All Hallows Eve is the Christian preparation for the following day, All Souls Day, a day specifically set aside for the Mass of The Holy Souls. Those already in heaven do not require our prayers. Very few people die in the state of angelic purity that is necessary to gain immediate entry to heaven. The doctrine of Purgatory does not create fear in Christians, but reinforces the message of God's mercy, and hope of attaining heaven.



posted on Jul, 6 2008 @ 05:58 AM
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reply to post by doctorex
 


The Catholic Church can make changes in Canon Law but it cannot change Christian doctrine. No Pope has this power, as all doctrinal teaching must remain in harmony with Holy Scripture. For example, no Pope can ever declare that homosexuality is consistent with doctrine, but he can change the rule of celibacy for the priesthood dictated by Canon Law, if he thought it prudent. The Pope is bound by Scripture, and any pronouncements declared to be infallible must remain doctrinally error free. Without adherence to Papal authority Protestant congregations have continually split as the result of doctrinal dispute. It is therefore necessary that one bishop has veto over all proposed Church teaching.



posted on Jul, 6 2008 @ 07:15 AM
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reply to post by Robhaidheuch
 


So does this mean that the Catholic church had no authority to change the Sabbath day, since scripture says that the Sabbath is the seventh day?

Deuteronomy 5:14 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, nor thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thine ox, nor thine ass, nor any of thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates; that thy manservant and thy maidservant may rest as well as thou.



posted on Jul, 6 2008 @ 08:04 AM
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reply to post by Robhaidheuch
 



So do you follow Christ by obeying His command to eat His flesh and drink His blood? If you are not a baptised Catholic you cannot observe His command, thus depriving yourself of the food of eternal life.

This is your opinion and it seems to be based on general Catholic teaching.
My opinion would be in opposition to yours.
I do not see any support for this sort of claim, outside of the church, itself.
There are a lot of claims built up around the celebration.
That is what it is, the Eucharist means a celebration.
I believe that every time I eat a meal, I can celebrate the fact that Jesus gave his life so that I can have life, eternal.
To me, I would be fulfilling Jesus' request, by remembering him, and how he died, when I take food.
The only thing that will deprive a person of eternal life is unbelief and lack of faith and an unwillingness to follow Christ.
If this Catholic doctrine of dispensing salvation, a piece at a time, was so important, it would have been spelled out, in the Bible.
As it is, we have an establishment that claims to be able to turn bread into God, and to support this claim by also being able to exclude people from salvation, based on their acceptance of this claim.

[edit on 6-7-2008 by jmdewey60]



posted on Jul, 6 2008 @ 08:56 AM
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reply to post by doctorex
 


So does this mean that the Catholic church had no authority to change the Sabbath day, since scripture says that the Sabbath is the seventh day?

Deuteronomy 5:14 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, nor thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thine ox, nor thine ass, nor any of thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates; that thy manservant and thy maidservant may rest as well as thou.

The sabbath would fall into a category equivelent to a Canon Law, in that it is not a central doctrine of Christianity. The Church has authority to change to Sunday, thus reflecting the day of greatest event in history, the Ressurrection. If Christianity adhered to all Levitical law, we would have to refrain from foods, wash ourselves in a particular manner, undergo circumcision, and all sorts of other Jewish traditions which St. Paul, the most brilliant Jewish lawyer and theologian of his day, said were an unnecessary burden to impose on gentile converts. Jehovah's Witnesses engage in this kind of scriptural nitpicking, while denying central doctrines in Christianity such as the Trinity, and the Incarnation of God in the person of the Word, who is Christ.



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