Instead of asking are Catholics Christians, I would ask are Christians really "Christian"? In my opinion, I think the Apostles would find most of the current Christian practices and concepts alien.

Where to begin? I'm amazed at some of the outlandish statements that have been made.

To claim that the Spanish Inquisition resulted in the deaths of 25 million people is beyond absurd. According to meticulous historical documentary evidence approximately 20 thousand people were executed by the Spanish state authorities, over a period of more than two hundred years.

The Spanish Inquisition was conceived in reaction to the threat from Islam that arose with the fall of Constantinople and the beginning of the Ottoman Empire. The Islamic Turks had the biggest navy on the Mediterranean, and prior to the Inquisition had attacked an Italian port and slaughtered more than ten thousand inhabitants who would not abandon Christianity, all priests and religious, and sawed the local bishop in half.

Spain had been conquered by the Moors for hundreds of years before it regained the Iberian peninsula. In the aftermath while many muslims and Jews converted to Christianity others remained as they were, and were free to continue in their religion. However, some of those who had converted were later discovered to be false Christians, were brought under the scrutiny of the Inquisition, found guilty and compelled to seek forgiveness for their perfidy and to make a public act of loyalty to the Catholic Faith. Some who did so were later discovered to have been insincere, were found guilty of this deception, and sentenced to death by the state authorities. as they were viewed as fifth columnists who would aid an Islamic invasion and therefore posed a serious threat to the security of Spain.

Calling yourself a Christian doesn't make you one. Hitler called himself a Christian, but did he follow the teachings of Christ? The Catholic church changed the Sabbath to Sunday, did away with all the levitical holy days that were kept by Christ and the Apostles (even after his death), and put a "christian" spin on pagan days of reverence. Look into the days the Catholic church both celebrates and gave to the modern "Christianity" (Christmas, Easter etc), and discover their pagan origins. The very head of their church takes a title that Christ himself said belongs to God only (Pope=papa=Holy father), even their priests take on the title of "father"...

Matthew 23:9 And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.

Not everyone how claims to be a Christian or to be following Christ is actually doing so....

MATTHEW 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

How do you who is a follower of Christ, and therefore a follower of his Father, Almighty God?

"And hallow my sabbaths; and they shall be a sign between me and you, that ye may know that I am the LORD your God" Ezekiel 20:20.

What has and still does the Catholic church have to say about that? They freely admit they have taken the authority upon themselves to change the law of God....

"The Sabbath, the best known day of the law, was changed into the Lord's day. These and others have not ceased because of instructions received from Christ, (because he himself says, I have not come to destroy the law, but to fulfill it), but because due to the authority of the church they have been changed." Archbishop of Rheggio, Sermon on 1-18-1562, Mansi XXIII, p. 526

"The Sunday is a Catholic institution, and its claim for sacredness can be defended only on Catholic authority...In Holy Scripture from the beginning to the end we find not one single text which justifies the transfer of the weekly public worship service from the last to the first day of the week." Catholic Press, Sidney, 8-25-1900

"Nowhere in the Bible is it stated that worship should be changed from Saturday to Sunday. The fact is that the Church was in existence for several centuries before the Bible was given to the world. The Church made the Bible; the Bible did not make the Church." Things Catholics Are Asked About, by Martin J. Scott, 1927 ed, p. 136

"We celebrate Sunday instead of Saturday, because the Catholic Church has transferred the sacredness from Saturday to Sunday at the council of Laodicea in the year of 364 AD." The Converts Catechism of Catholic Doctrine, from P. Geiermann, the work of Pope Pius X, on 1-25-1910

"Sunday is our mark of authority. The church is above the Bible, and this transference of Sabbath observance is proof of that fact." The Catholic Record, London, Ontario, September 1, 1923

"The observance of Sunday by Protestants is an homage they pay, in spite of themselves, to the authority of the (Catholic) Church." Plain Talk About the Protestantism of Today, by Monsignor Segur, p. 213

"But the Protestant mind does not seem to realize that in...observing the Sunday... they are accepting the authority of the spokesman for the church, the pope." Our Sunday Visitor, Catholic weekly, Feb. 5, 1950

"Of course the Catholic Church claims that the change was her act... a mark of her ecclesiastical power and authority in religious matters." Office of Cardinal Gibbons, through Chancellor C. F. Thomas, Nov. 11, 1895

Catholics claim to be Christian and I do not doubt that they believe in Christ, but they do not follow in line with Christ's teachings. Jesus said " I am the way the truth and the life, noone comes to the father but by me " Yet Catholics pray to God through Mary and they teach about Purgatory which is not Biblical at all. They teach that when you die your soul goes to purgatory and that it has to be prayed out to go to Heaven. If we have the ability to pray someone into Heaven then Jesus is not who he said he is now is he?

From perusing the thread it seems that these are the arguments AGAINST the Catholic Church’s adherents being Christians.

Changing the day of the Sabbath
Calling someone ‘father’ is encouraged
Contravene ‘Thou Shalt Not Kill’
Converted pagan holidays into days to worship God
Catholicism espouses tradition (and Tradition)
The Catholic Church is wealthy

I still say that it is impossible to say who is or isn’t a Christian without defining what a Christian is.

Is a belief in the Nicene Creed a starting point?

I don’t want to derail the thread, so I will be happy to discuss the points brought up if someone would like to start a new thread regarding them. Unfortunately, if I attempt to refute each point of contention it will very quickly become a thread hijack.

Eric

tjetbone, your theory on Simon Magus has absolutely no historical foundation.

Legend tells that St. Peter was challenged by Magus to a display of power in front of the Roman Emperor. Simon Magus levitated, believing he was doing so by his own power. Peter knelt down, made the sign of the Cross, the demons supporting Magus fled, and he plunged to his death. I understand that the Church of St. Mary Major, Rome was later built over the spot where Peter had knelt.

I'm amazed at the number of postings that display little knowledge of early Church history, the development of liturgy, and tradition prior to the Catholic Church compiling the authoratative books of Holy Scripture that we call the Bible, or the writings of the Early Church Fathers.

The Protestant Reformation removed 1st and 2nd Book of Maccabees and the Book of Tobit from the old Testament. 2nd Maccabees contains the teaching on praying for the dead, thus indicating that some souls may be in a state not yet worthy of Heaven but saved from Hell. The saints who are now in Heaven can, like any other Christian, pray for others, and logic would presume that their souls being in a state fit for Heaven, and in the immediate presence of God, their prayers would be more efficacious than all earthbound Christians whose souls are as yet in a much inferior state due to the effects of sin. Requesting a saint in Heaven to join with one in prayer to God is not worship by any means.

they are not true christians.
a true christian is a follower of Christ.
they call a priest father, yet Jesus says only call God father.
This is different than calling your dad father, thats ok.

and its pretty sick that they exhume the body of Padre Pio to
worship it and put it on display. they prayed to him more than to Jesus or
Mary. what kind of a nut wants to worship a corpse on display.

I think nobody's Christian anymore.

Jesus was a doer. None of the "saved" Christians I know do anything but talk.


sarc

as a catholic this post/thread is lame and offenisve

nice work