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Are Catholics Christian?

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posted on Jul, 14 2008 @ 05:00 PM
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reply to post by jmdewey60
 


"The Venerable Bede was Catholic, but English, I think.
Did the Church of England give him the same veneration? "

I believe it still does.




posted on Jul, 14 2008 @ 05:10 PM
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reply to post by jmdewey60
 


Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.

He is referring to the emerging Gnostic doctrines that came to a full fruition in the Cathars who taught that all flesh was evil and that it was sinful to marry and procreate. They denied that Christ was truly human, as the human body was evil. They were quite mad, and dangerous heretics.



posted on Jul, 14 2008 @ 05:31 PM
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reply to post by Robhaidheuch
 


He is referring to the emerging Gnostic doctrines

That is exactly what came to mind, when I was reading Jakyll's post.
I would have ignored his whole post, but that jumped out at me as being inapropriate.

[edit on 14-7-2008 by jmdewey60]



posted on Jul, 14 2008 @ 05:34 PM
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Originally posted by Robhaidheuch
reply to post by jmdewey60
 


"The Venerable Bede was Catholic, but English, I think.
Did the Church of England give him the same veneration? "

I believe it still does.

Her is something that I found, looking up articles about Bede:

Christians seeking the history of Britain's many Orthodox saints, including St. Cuthbert and the Proto-martyr St. Alban, are often totally dependent upon St. Bede's accounts. The Saint has been criticized for his account of the Synod of Whitby (664), at which virtually all the English - except for the ancient monastery of Iona - accepted the Roman dating method for Pascha. Modern scholarship suggests that this rather emotional topic was not the reason this local council was summoned, although the question of the Paschal calendar was put on its agenda. There were men of undoubted sanctity on both sides of the dispute. The king's own bishop, St. Colman of Lindesfarne (commemorated Feb. 18) resigned his see rather than accept the Synod's decision. But he was allowed to nominate St. Eata (Oct. 26), a man who accepted the decision, as his successor.

www.fatheralexander.org...
There were a lot of Orthodox in England, back in the Early Middle Ages, and not just the Roman Catholics.



posted on Jul, 14 2008 @ 05:45 PM
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reply to post by jmdewey60
 


"virtually all the English - except for the ancient monastery of Iona -"

Once again Iona Scotland is relegated to being an English region by another ignorant writer. The Scots-Irish monks of Iona were responsible for evangelising pagan England, and were responsible for the founding of the monastic community on Lindifarne.



posted on Jul, 14 2008 @ 05:52 PM
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reply to post by Robhaidheuch
 





You are confusing veneration with worship.


No i'm not.Some Catholics show due respect,others worship.

If i was naughty at school i was told to say the Roseary and to do so at the foot of the statue of Mary.I was to pray to her for forgiveness.This isn't (wasn't) an uncommon practice in Catholic schools.

Some ppl pray to Mary or various Saints when the Bible strictly forbids this.the only person who can pass our prayers on to God is Jesus.


When i was in Rome recently i visited the Vatican,and i was overwhelmed.But not in the way your probably thinking.

In all the shops i went into in the near vicinity were full of statues,pictures,postcards etc of 2 ppl.Mary and the Pope.It took me a while to find pictures of Jesus,and even then he wasn't on his own,Mary or the Pope were in them too.I remember thinking to myself,"who exactly are they worshiping here?"



posted on Jul, 14 2008 @ 06:13 PM
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In 1370, Bede's remains were moved to a splendid shrine in the Galilee Chapel. This shrine was destroyed during the Reformation in 1540 and Bede's bones were then buried in a grave where the shrine had stood.

www.religionfacts.com...

Wow! That's sad.
Hemm.
Kind of goes along with what I was saying, the other day.
Here was probably the greatest Doctor of Literature in English History and he gets this treatment?
Oh well, maybe there was a picture of Mary, or something on it, so they had to destroy it.



posted on Jul, 14 2008 @ 06:38 PM
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reply to post by jmdewey60
 





In general, I am kind of with you but I find your arguments a little weak.
I was trying to get you to support your arguments, further.


If 1Timothy 4:1-3 says that in the days of apostasy ppl will be forbidden to marry.If this is true then,contrary to what Robhaidheuch said,he can't just of been talking about groups such as the Cathars,as forbidding priests to marry became part of Catholic doctrine.

The fact that it is spoken of in this context means that the Catholics have no right to forbid anyone from marrying.If a person wants to be abstain to help themselves follow in Jesus' and to bring them closer to God,then they have every right to do so.Being forced though is against free will.



posted on Jul, 14 2008 @ 09:28 PM
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reply to post by jakyll
 



If i was naughty at school i was told to say the Roseary and to do so at the foot of the statue of Mary.I was to pray to her for forgiveness.


Thank you for this. Here is a large part of my concernwith the Catholic Church.

First, who is Mary to forgive you. Forgiveness comes from god directly in the same way our prayers should go directly to god. Second "at the foot of the statue of Mary.I was to pray to her for forgiveness" This is very much like worshiping idols to me. Asking Mary is one thing but focusing your attention on the statue is out and out blasphemous.



posted on Jul, 15 2008 @ 01:42 AM
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reply to post by jakyll
 


"The fact that it is spoken of in this context means that the Catholics have no right to forbid anyone from marrying.If a person wants to be abstain to help themselves follow in Jesus' and to bring them closer to God,then they have every right to do so.Being forced though is against free will."

The context is apostasy, i.e. rejecting Catholic teaching. The Catholic Church has the right to forbid some people from marrying e.g. brother to sister, or same gender. The vow of celibacy taken by priests is a choice made by free will, therefore your argument is redundant. You may argue against a priest choosing to live a celibate life but it is his business and none of yours, so why are you allowing yourself to get so upset, or do you think everyone should be forced to marry?

"forbidding priests to marry became part of Catholic doctrine."

It is not part of Catholic doctrine. Doctrine cannot be changed only expanded upon, by a deeper understanding of revelation. Priestly celibacy is a condition imposed by Canon Law which can be changed, if the Church deems it prudent.

[edit on 15-7-2008 by Robhaidheuch]



posted on Jul, 15 2008 @ 02:24 AM
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reply to post by VIKINGANT
 


The charge is baseless. It has been addressed in earlier postings by others. The idea that all individuals have a direct line to God, where God will regularly engage in direct communication to an individual has led some people to becoming delusional and suffering a mental disorder. Christians can sometimes suffer from this delusion, and decide that their internalised thought is actually a direct word from God. We require the help of others, and that includes the help of the angels and saints of heaven, to gain a better understanding of God's will for us, and thus avoiding the mistake of becoming our own counsel.

Private revelation to individuals does occur but is uncommon, is rigorously tested by Church authorities for authenticity, and is usually only experienced by mystics and contemplatives who engage in lives of prayer, choosing denial of human sensual pleasures through fasting, as a means to free their souls to draw closer to God, unhindered by earthly considerations.



posted on Jul, 15 2008 @ 02:56 AM
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Having a direct line to God, through Christ, to be able to go before His throne spiritually and ask for forgiveness in the name of His Son, is different to claiming a direct line of two-way communication link with God. I don't need to go through Mary or into a confessional box before a priest, the way into the holiest of holies has now been made manifest through the sacrifice of our savior Jesus Christ....

HEBREWS 9:6 Now when these things were thus ordained, the priests went always into the first tabernacle, accomplishing the service of God.
7 But into the second went the high priest alone once every year, not without blood, which he offered for himself, and for the errors of the people:
8 The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing:
9 Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;
10 Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.
11 But Christ being come a high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;
12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.
13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of a heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:
14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.



posted on Jul, 15 2008 @ 05:03 AM
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reply to post by Robhaidheuch
 





The context is apostasy, i.e. rejecting Catholic teaching. The Catholic Church has the right to forbid some people from marrying e.g. brother to sister, or same gender. The vow of celibacy taken by priests is a choice made by free will, therefore your argument is redundant. You may argue against a priest choosing to live a celibate life but it is his business and none of yours, so why are you allowing yourself to get so upset, or do you think everyone should be forced to marry?




First of all,i'm obviously not talking about brothers and sisters,same gender etc marrying.Secondly,I actually said that it is a priests choice to be celibate or not.Thirdly,i believe ppl should be able to marry if they want to.For the Catholic Church to deny someone the chance to do so and to deny them the chance of having children goes directly against the Laws of God.

If the context is apostasy then the Catholics are guilty of committing it by placing such a ban on priests.And doctrine is a principle or body of principles presented for acceptance or belief,as by a religious,political,scientific,or philosophic group,it comes from the Latin word doctrina.It is not something set in stone,it can be changed and altered,usually to suit man's needs not Gods.



"The priest is, indeed, another Christ, or in some way, he is himself a continuation of Christ." (Pope Pius XI, Encylical on the Priesthood)

Some,KEY DATES IN THE EVOLUTION OF ROMAN CATHOLIC DOCTRINE.
300 -- Prayers For The Dead.-- Making The Sign Of The Cross.
600 -- Worship in Latin Language.
754 -- Temporal, Political power of the Pope.
788 -- Worship of Mary and the Saints.
1123 -- Enforced celibacy for priests.
1190 -- Sale of Indulgences.

www.cuttingedge.org...




First Century.
Peter,the first pope,and the apostles that Jesus chose were,for the most part,married men.The New Testament implies that women presided at eucharistic meals in the early church....

Fourth Century.
385-Pope Siricius left his wife in order to become pope. Decreed that priests may no longer sleep with their wives....

Sixth Century.
567-2nd Council of Tours: any cleric found in bed with his wife would be excommunicated for a year and reduced to the lay state.
580-Pope Pelagius II: his policy was not to bother married priests as long as they did not hand over church property to wives or children....

Ninth Century.
836-Council of Aix-la-Chapelle openly admitted that abortions and infanticide took place in convents and monasteries to cover up activities of uncelibate clerics.St. Ulrich, a holy bishop, argued from scripture and common sense that the only way to purify the church from the worst excesses of celibacy was to permit priests to marry.

Eleventh Century.
1095-Pope Urban II had priests’ wives sold into slavery, children were abandoned.

Twelfth Century.
1123-Pope Calistus II: First Lateran Council decreed that clerical marriages were invalid.

Sixteenth Century
1545-63-Council of Trent states that celibacy and virginity are superior to marriage.

Twentieth Century
1930-Pope Pius XI: sex can be good and holy.
1951-Pope Pius XII: married Lutheran pastor ordained catholic priest in Germany.
1962-Pope John XXIII: Vatican Council II; vernacular; marriage is equal to virginity.
1966-Pope Paul VI: celibacy dispensations.
1970s-Ludmilla Javorova and several other Czech women ordained to serve needs of women imprisoned by Communists.
1978-Pope John Paul II: puts a freeze on dispensations.
1983-New Canon Law.
1980-Married Anglican/Episcopal pastors are ordained as catholic priests in the U.S.; also in Canada and England in 1994.

www.futurechurch.org...






The idea that all individuals have a direct line to God, where God will regularly engage in direct communication to an individual has led some people to becoming delusional and suffering a mental disorder.



John 14:6Jesus saith unto him,I am the way,the truth,and the life:no man cometh unto the Father,but by me.

Ephesians 2:18For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.

(the verses following this are interesting,they concern the Rock of the Church.
19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints,and of the household of God;20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets,Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; )







[edit on 15-7-2008 by jakyll]



posted on Jul, 15 2008 @ 09:47 AM
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reply to post by jakyll
 



788 -- Worship of Mary and the Saints.

the above is from an external source quoted in jakyll's post.

Here is something written around 730:

"My soul proclaims the greatness of the Lord, any my spirit rejoices in God my savior." With these words Mary first acknowledges the special gifts she has been given.

Above all other saints, she alone could truly rejoice in Jesus, her savior, for she knew that he who was the source of eternal salvation would be born in time in her body, in one person both her own son and her Lord.

"For the Almighty has done great things for me, and holy is his name." Mary attributes nothing to her own merits. She refers all her greatness to the gift of one whose essence is power and whose nature is greatness, for he fill with greatness and strength the small and the weak who believe in him.

She did well to add: "and holy is his name," to warn those who heard, and indeed all who would receive his words, that they must believe and call upon his name. For they too could share in everlasting holiness and true salvation according to the words of the prophet: "and it will come to pass, that everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved." This is the name she spoke of earlier when she said "and my spirit rejoices in God my savior."

from a homily by Saint Bede
This seems to me, to be a reference to the Saints and Mary, but in a rather humble sort of way.
Maybe it was toned down because it was not official Church doctrine to pray to them, but I get an inference from this homily that it was customary to do so.(at the end, she states that all must call on the name of Jesus.could he have written this because Mary worship seemed to be getting out of hand and he felt Jesus was being neglected?)


[edit on 15-7-2008 by jmdewey60]



posted on Jul, 15 2008 @ 11:31 AM
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reply to post by jakyll
 


"For the Catholic Church to deny someone the chance to do so and to deny them the chance of having children goes directly against the Laws of God."

I must be missing something in Catholic teaching. I haven't a clue what you're talking about.



posted on Jul, 15 2008 @ 11:53 AM
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I looked at your source "Future Church" This is what they had to say about a ban on homosexuals training for the Catholic priesthood:

"FutureChurch grieves that the recent Vatican statement banning gay men from the seminary will be wounding and alienating to many good priests who are gay. Like their straight brothers, most are dedicated, effective priests who are faithful to their celibacy promises.

The Church needs priests. If the new policy is enforced, the Church will lose a number of good seminarians. This will worsen the already severe priest shortage, limiting even further our ability to meet the immediate and long range pastoral and eucharistic needs of our people."

I don't recognise Future Church as representative of the Catholic Church. Homosexuality is a perversion of nature. To insert or receive a penis in an orifice designed for defecating is perverse, and it did not take the teaching of the Catholic Church for me to arrive at this conclusion. All homsexuals are intrinsically coprophiles, or as we would say in the Scottish vernacular, a bunch of clatty filthy arseholes. Henry Makow has the whole 'Gay' and 'Feminist' movements sussed.



posted on Jul, 15 2008 @ 11:57 AM
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reply to post by jmdewey60
 





Maybe it was toned down because it was not official Church doctrine to pray to them, but I get an inference from this homily that it was customary to do so.(at the end, she states that all must call on the name of Jesus.could he have written this because Mary worship seemed to be getting out of hand and he felt Jesus was being neglected?)


It could very well be.

I think ppl don't understand that the minute you start asking someone other than God,through Jesus,to help you in some way,to guide you,give you strength etc,then you are sinning.You are guilty of committing the very first commandment.

It also go's against their own teachings.If you can only speak to God and Jesus through a priest,whats the point in praying?



posted on Jul, 15 2008 @ 12:07 PM
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reply to post by Robhaidheuch
 


Interesting....and totally pointless,as it doesn't really answer any of my arguments does it.


And believe it or not,most gay priests choose to be celibate,therefore they are not offending God and they are not sinning against Him.Remember now,its only the sexual act of anal sex that is offensive to God.





I don't recognise Future Church as representative of the Catholic Church.


I used their site as a source for a timeline on celibacy in the church,it doesn't mean i agree with everything on that site,and it doesn't mean that all of what they say is wrong.If you look at CC history you will see that they are correct.(meaning the timeline)









[edit on 15-7-2008 by jakyll]



posted on Jul, 15 2008 @ 01:35 PM
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reply to post by Robhaidheuch
 



Once again Iona Scotland is relegated to being an English region by another ignorant writer. The Scots-Irish monks of Iona were responsible for evangelising pagan England, and were responsible for the founding of the monastic community on Lindifarne.

I am guessing the "another ignorant writer" is the web blogger and not Bede.

St Egbert of Iona: St Egbert of Iona is, I think, one of Bede’s most under-appreciated heroes. Of course, the plague makes Egbert’s long stay in Ireland possible. He pledges to God that he will never return home in thanksgiving for surviving the plague that killed his friend. Egbert’s eventual conversion of Iona to the Roman rite was of paramount importance to Bede.

hefenfelth.wordpress.com...
I do not understand all the nuances between Anglican, Episcopalian and the Church of England, so you may have misunderstood my original question.
I will try to restate it, though I am trying to find it on the internet.
IF the Pope has to proclaim someone to be a Saint, does the Queen as the head of the Church of England, have to appoint Saints, or they just not recognize anyone?
If they did, could it be an Englishman, like Bede who is already recognized by the Roman Catholic Church?


[edit on 15-7-2008 by jmdewey60]



posted on Jul, 15 2008 @ 03:54 PM
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reply to post by jmdewey60
 





IF the Pope has to proclaim someone to be a Saint, does the Queen as the head of the Church of England, have to appoint Saints, or they just not recognize anyone?


I know this question wasn't directed at me,but i hope you don't mind me answering.

According to the Britannica Encyclopedia....

The Church of England has no mechanism for canonising saints, and unlike the Roman Catholic Church it makes no claims regarding the heavenly status of those whom it commemorates in its calendar. For this reason, the Church of England avoids the use of the prenominal title "Saint" with reference to uncanonised individuals and is restrained in what it says about them in its liturgical texts. In order not to seem to imply grades of sanctity, or to discriminate between holy persons of the pre- and post-Reformation periods, the title "Saint" is not used at all in the calendar, even with reference to those who have always been known by that title, for example the Apostles....

....The Church of England commemorates many of the same saints as those in the Roman Catholic calendar of saints, mostly on the same days, but also commemorates various notable (often post-Reformation) Christians who have not been canonised, with a particular though not exclusive emphasis on those of English origin....



At the 1958 Lambeth Conference these resolutions were made;
www.lambethconference.org...



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