Are Catholics Christian?

I have had many discussions with friends of mine (Catholic and non) and one thing that has come up more often often with the non is that Catholics are not Christians. I have argued that yes they are in that they have thier belief based on Christ ergo Christian.

Further conversations discussed the prospect that Catholisism was born not from Christianity as is believed but other Pagan religions. The arguments include the fact that they "worship" many gods. (IE the saints through thier prayers) and Idols (IE crucifixes etc)
It has also been said that the traditional Christian style of worship as practiced today was borne of the fact that christianity was becoming popular at the time so they adapted thier teachings to include Christ in order to maintain popularty and therefore control of the masses.

[edit on 5/7/2008 by VIKINGANT]

Hi Vikingant

At the risk of starting a mini religious war, I have decided to respond to your question!!

From my research, the catholics are (or were) definitely NOT Christian. And I will state my case.

1. To say you are a Christian is to follow the principals of Christ himself. Christ, in my opinion, was history's first documented hippy. He practiced love, forgiveness and gentleness. He was a healer. He preached to the people to forgive and love their brother, to turn the other cheek. I have just posted in another thread that I believe the Catholics are great hypocrites as one of their greatest laws states "Thou shalt not kill" and they have waged history's bloodiest mass killings during the inquisition (one author says nearly 25 million died). Priests and bishops bless our army troups before they go into battle...to kill other human beings. This is hypocrisy.

2. Before and after the inception of Catholisism, Paganism was the most popular religion in Europe. Pagans were nature lovers/followers, they revered the cycles of the earth and the heavens. Honouring mother earth and her seasons. Studying astrology and honouring the Sun, Moon and Stars and their cycles. They were healers too, using plants (herbs) and nature to cure almost anything. Pagans also carried over some of the ancient egyptian traditions and gods, such as Isis. The Catholic heirachy realised that if they killed every pagan, they wouldn't have much of a population left to control, so in an attempt to sway what was left of the masses, they made Christmas Day on 25 December - the revered date of the birth of Horus to his virgin mother Isis. And began to call Mary, the mother of Christ a virgin. Easter is always scheduled close to a full moon, another pagan sweetner. I could go on and on, but just want to give you a short example of where the Catholics got their inspiration and demonstrate that early Catholics were basically plagarists of pagan traditions and at the same time, were murdering the pagans labelling them "witches" and "devil worshippers" and worse.

3. Catholosism has a very dark history, thats for sure! Some historians will say that the religion itself was created as a law to govern the people. As the "fear of God" will ensure that the masses are under the control of the church and thus the picture of a cruel and punishing god was painted to the people. If you follow Catholisism, you will be redeemed, follow Jesus and you will be saved! But the Church leaders are not following Jesus are they?

If you are a practising Catholic, don't take this to heart as I am only criticising the leadership of the church, past and present, not the everyday followers.

Anyway, just my 2 cents worth,



Dobbie

"The Roman Catholic Church, officially known as the Catholic Church, is the world's largest Christian church and represents over half of all Christians and one-sixth of the world's population." (Wiki)

A roman emporer turned christianity into the official state religion around 300 AD. Which means the christian catholics are the main reason the west are mostly christian today. It dates back to the roman empire...

Originally posted by ravenflt
A roman emporer turned christianity into the official state religion around 300 AD. Which means the christian catholics are the main reason the west are mostly christian today. It dates back to the roman empire...

Exactly. And did the pre Christian Romans not worship many gods? Were they also in threat of an uprising by the Christians they once persecuted? They had to do something to appease the people. Why do you think it is the ROMAN Catholic church? Catholic by definition means 'universal' which was thier way of uniting the beliefs.

[edit on 5/7/2008 by VIKINGANT]

Some very interesting points there VIKINGANT ..

I am catholic but when it comes to the founding of catholicism and some of its actions in History, it seems very very far away from the way i was raised through Catholicism.

As with everything religion wise, it seems to be a matter of perspective. But outside perspective is almost always skeptical and paranoid. Ie. the Christian/muslim relationship

Where your friends see Catholics worshiping other gods in the form of saints -

Catholics don't pray to saints in the traditional sense - its more to ask them for help in gaining forgiveness for sins, ask them to help protect against Evil and the work of the Devil and thank them for their efforts.

And worshiping Idols

The crucifix is not worshipped, its the person that is on it that is worshipped...ie Jesus. To Catholics, the crucifix represents Jesus, his struggle and death for anyone who believes.
As with statues of the Virgin Mary, they are not worshipped, they are there as a reminder to live a good life.

The Pope

This is also an issue that a lot of non-catholics seem to have all wrong. The pope is not our connection to God. He's just a religious leader, borne of a democratic vote by cardinals. He gives his views on how we should live morally (as any religious leader does) and we personally choose whether we agree or not.


Unfortunately the true origins of the Catholic church will probably never be revealed, personally i believe that is stemmed from Rome to promote peace, profit and power and even though our religious leaders have profusely apologized for past behavior, that past will always be there. But to Catholics, the origin is not important, its the spirituality. Like with any religion, but our is based on the Idea that Christ died for us, that we should follow his teachings and that we owe him.

So yes, I believe that when it comes down to it, Catholics are extremely Christian (with a lot of the unnecessary Frills that follow organized religion)








[edit on 16/06/08 by Dermo]

[edit on 16/06/08 by Dermo]

Catholics are not the only ones who celebrate Easter, or celebrate Christmas on the 25th of December. Anyhow, If you are going to question the validity of Catholicism as part of Christianity, it might be a prudent to look to yourself first. In spite of the fact that nobody knows Christ's date of birth exactly, Christ never asked for it to be celebrated. If you need a special day to break bread with your friends, Passover would probably be the right time.

Also, the actions of the Catholic Church (past or present) have no bearing whatsoever on whether a person is not a Christian simply because they are Catholic.
You could attack any church that doesn't purely call itself Christian, and probably rightfully so. Are Anglicans not real christians because the seperation of their church from the Pope was due to such a base reason as a king wanting another wife? The only 'true' christians in this sense would be the ones who are Christians, plain and simple, without any other prefix or suffix- No "I'm a ____ Christian" or "I'm from the Church of _____".

Besides, the title of 'Christian' is probably a misnomer in itself, considering that Christ never used such a label, either for himself or his followers. He probably considered his mission an extension of Judaism.

[edit on 5-7-2008 by babloyi]

From a historical perspective Roman Catholicism and/or Eastern Orthodoxy are the first organized Christian Churches, depending on which camp you fall under after the "great schism." I lean toward Orthodoxy.

I am not a Christian nor am I a defender of Roman or Eastern Catholicism but history is clearly on their side. As the first organized Christian Church they are the ones who determine what is and what is not Christian. After all, they are the ones who, for lack of a better word, 'published' the Bible.

Think of all of Christianity like a big tree.

The roots are Judeism
The trunk is Christianity
The branches are Catholics, Baptists, Lutherans, and all the other related religions.
Also, there is a large branch stemming from that trunk called Islam.

Just as a sidebar, there was no such thing as Catholicism when Jesus Christ was alive. Just the sprouts of Christianity.



[edit on 5-7-2008 by jupiter869]

Looking in the book of Revelation I see the Whore of Babylon as being the Vatican. Let me know if it can be any other place on earth.

It seems obvious to me that the Catholic order has turned the original Christianity into a propaganda machine to destroy it’s original roots and teachings- Judaism and a call for Jubilee to destroy the tax base of Rome.
As well as spiritual advancement.

I go with NO, if you consider Yeshua as being a Christian.

Laurence Gardner: The Grail Enigma.

ISBN: 13 978-0-00-726694-4 (hard back)

Want your eyes opened wide ? read this beautiful book.

It is all about Jesus and the very early church, how it was split by divisions and how an emperor stole the teachings and killed all those who opposed his view that he was the bishop of Christ, the first Pope.

It shows how even hundreds of years before a Roman foot set aground upon the hallowed land of England Christs teachings were in abundance, led by the holy men of Anglesey and the North.

Saint Columba was preaching the true faith of Christ many, many years before he ever met a roman, and could not even speak Latin ! This is important, as all he remaining works citied as genuine are in a language he could not even read, let alone speak.

In my eyes, catholisism is not the true teachings of Jesus, but then, no Church that subjugates its followers can ever call itself the true teachings of Christ.

reply to post by VIKINGANT

It has also been said that the traditional Christian style of worship as practiced today was borne of the fact that christianity was becoming popular at the time so they adapted thier teachings to include Christ in order to maintain popularty and therefore control of the masses.

The title Pontiff was around, already and was used when talking about the Roman Emperor being the head of the State Religion.
The "Mass" was the ceremony that the Pontiff presided over.
Once Christianity became official, in the Empire, forces were sent out from Rome to all the Churches to persuade them to adopt the royal ceremony.
A big selling point was the degree of grandeur it would lend to the ceremony practiced in the churches.

I was raised Methodist and catholic oddly enough. My father was Methodist and my mother was catholic. I am currently agnostic when it comes to spiritual manners.

My parents gave a choice when I was in about the first grade on what religion path I want to follow. At that time I picked catholic mostly due to the fact I was use to that church (since my mom was an avid church goer.) and most of my friends went there.

I did my own research as I got older on the Catholic Church and Christianity as a whole as well. Mostly I was looking for something that had the same view on god as I did. I ended up agnostic because of it.

Are the catholic's Christian? Yes they are as Christian as any other religion that follows the teaching of Jesus and believes he is the savior. Although they are horrible singers compared to other Christian religions as my father pointed out to me at an early age.

The things you need to know about the Catholic Church. Every book in the New Testament was handpicked by Catholic Church and they even throughout some the Old Testament. So if Christianity follows the good book then they follow the very basic idea of the Catholic Church.

Methodism (Methodist), Calvinism, and whole bunch other Christian faiths split from the catholic church due to disagreements mostly with rights and rituals of the church. Still there basic belief comes from the catholic belief some if the Catholic Church is not Christian then neither are they.

As for the so called worship of the saints which I have debunked amongst most of my friends who try to argue that point. It isn't considered worship of the saints, it's more like respect for your elders and your wise mans teachings. Asking for some guidance is not worship it is a form of respect.

The Holy cross is indeed against what the good book teaches. It is a false idol but it is not just catholic thing most Christian beliefs use the cross as symbolism, therefore it must be Christian if not just the Catholics use it. Same goes for any representation of Jesus.

As for the Pagan ties, yes the Catholics set up these holidays on pagan holidays. Read a history book sometime it will tell you exactly why they did it. Yes it was a form of propaganda, basically if you can relate your religion if slightly to another’s it makes it easier to convert and teach people to your belief. You see this allot in Native American history or in the case of the Spanish cross through South America. They would purposely set up monasteries and churches on pagan sights and slightly twist Christianity, to the view of the natives to covert them. It just made it easier so they could relate to what was being told to them.

As for the bloody wars breaking the Ten Commandments. Read the bible sometime especially the Old Testament and count how many times the Ten Commandments especially you shalt not kill is broken. Basically what I am saying is it is in human nature to break the rules and we are flawed. Heck the bible even tells us we are flawed time and time again. It doesn't make us unchristian it just makes us sinners.

I'm not by any means saying the Catholic Church isn't flawed or without its corruption. If I did say that I would be lying and going against what history has to say. Heck I know some its corruption first hand but that’s a story for another time. The Catholic Church lies, cheats, kills, and steals just like most religious or government institutions. By no means are they non Christians because of it.

hello

With regard to individuals then its not for me to judge if they are saved or not. I have to judge actions and words against Gods will written in the Bible though.

With regard to the RCC, in my opinion it most definitely is not, you can shout history and state religion and all that, but as we used to say here in the UK sometime ago, its says typhoo tea on the side of the bus it doesn't make it tea does it

Tradition = against Christ words

i could go on and on and on with RCC doctrine but for those who wish to see, it is clearly visible that the RCC goes against God.

Yes there are some that go in accordance with God it would seem, however a wolf would look like a wolf without the sheeps clothing, now wouldn't it?

for any person in any "denomination" i would say pick up the word of God and let the Holy Spirit teach and guide you checking all things with the written word of the Lord.

by the way i could say that many protestant churches can be included in the above also.

I cant find anything in the bible that sets out a "church" as we know it today

all the best

david

reply to post by Comforter


Babylon kept the Jews from fulfilling its mission to hold Jerusalem for the worship of the true God.
The world wide religion corporation holds Christians from fulfilling its duties of giving freedom to the people.
The world wide religion corporation keeps people in bondage and decides who can or can not have access to salvation.
That is exactly what Jesus was against, a religion for the well-off.
So, to me, the world wide religion corporation is the anti-Christ.
(I do not want to give it the dignity of calling it a church)

[edit on 5-7-2008 by jmdewey60]

hello

i fully agree with that

should a corporation be so rich if its doing great things for the needy?

Christ told the rich man to SELL all he had, not become the biggest land owners in the country etc etc. He also said to give it to the poor, not the collection pot

Luke 18:22

david

This is an interesting question and I believe that it has merit. It is a an effort to get to the heart of the matter, and that is often eschewed for what some consider a more sophisticated argument that often boils down to mere sophistry.

I think that before we delve into the particulars of Catholicism and the pros and cons of Catholic beliefs; we need to define terms.

What is a Christian? It is clearly NOT just someone who calls themselves a Christian. I can call myself a better closer than Billy Wagner. That doesn't make it so. Can we simply say 'someone who follows the teachings of Christ'? I'm not sure. I think that we would need to look at where these teachings originate. I'm not big on the gnostic texts. I wouldn't use that as a barometer. Others would.

How about the Nicene Creed? Is that still valid? It's used by Catholics and Protestants and everyone in between.

How do we define what a Christian is with any specificity?

Eric

PS Oh, and to answer the original question, I believe that Catholics are Christians.

Two Branches of Christianity

Simon Magus became the father of one of the greatest deceptions
ever foisted upon mankind. He set out to establish a counterfeit
of what he saw the disciples doing. In order to accomplish his
new pursuit of self-aggrandizement, he went so far as to take
upon himself the name of the chief apostle to the Jewish people,
Simon Peter. Since the disciples were establishing a church, he
continued his great lie by establishing his own version of
Christianity and a different church.
He began to mix his own ideas and past beliefs with what he
had witnessed and learned from Peter, John and Phillip. It was
from this very moment in time that a counterfeit of the true
Church emerged on the scene. Two branches, both calling
themselves Christian, began to grow. One would always be
small, and it would always be rejected by the world. This small
Church was the one, true branch because it was from God and it
was sustained by His great power. It is the true Church of God.
The other branch was counterfeit and became filled with
pagan rituals and teachings. It was established by Simon
(Magus) Peter and it grew and flourished, becoming larger and
more popular in the world. God’s Church has never greatly
flourished; it has not been popular in the world. Many are going
to hate this knowledge about a counterfeit tree of Christianity
because man resists the truth of God and seeks to hold onto his
own ways which are false. It doesn’t really matter who gets mad
or who hates what is being said. Those with such attitudes are
going to have a very difficult road to walk in the next few years
before Jesus Christ returns. God is not concerned with the
whimpering, irritated and puffed up egos of those who refuse
Him and insist on following their own stubborn beliefs in
counterfeit Christianity. All counterfeit Christianity is about to
be destroyed!
This new church of Simon (Peter) Magus called itself
Christian. The traditional Christianity of today has its roots in
that great false church.
The true Church of God has continued from the day it
began in 31 A.D. It had as its chief apostles, Peter and Paul.
Peter was over the portion of the Church that was sent to the
Jewish people and Paul was over the other portion that was
sent to the gentiles. The Church of God has never been large.
God never intended it to be large, since this was not the time
for salvation to be given to the world. Only those called out of
the world, who were to be trained to become part of God’s
future government (among the 144,000), were part of the
Church of God.
However, the church that began to grow and become large
was the one that Simon (Peter) Magus established. By mixing
various beliefs of the truth he had heard from the disciples
with the false teachings of other religions in the world around
him, he made his counterfeit of Christianity attractive to many.
Simon was quite clever, as were those who succeeded him, in
devising a charismatic religion that would exercise great
influence over the fears and superstitions of man.
Human nature does not want the authority of God to rule
over it. Human nature does like to worship a god that
appeals more to its own nature, one of its own devising,
with its own structure of government and authority, along
with the power to establish or reject doctrine, and the power
to choose whom it wants to convey its ideas and represent
its vision to others.
It is by this means that Simon Magus attracted people to
his new-found religion. It would be beneficial at this point to
consider some of the methods that Simon Magus and his
successors used to counterfeit the true Church of God.
God commands man to worship Him on the seventh-day
Sabbath. However, during Simon Magus’ time, people had their
false gods, and the most popular belief at this time concerned the
various forms of worship that revolved around ideas of a sun god.
The day for such worship became sunday

Several versions of sun god worship were being followed by
different foreign people. In the early stages of this new religion,
Simon and his successors adopted some concepts from several of
these different nationalities, thus helping to merge them together
into one that he called Christianity. Rather than observing the
seventh-day command given by God, this new false church
incorporated Sunday worship.
The priests of pagan religions loved to receive preeminence
and adoration from others, and they loved to exercise religious
and political control over the lives of the general population.
Large numbers of people were attracted to such ceremony and
pomp. People were drawn to the glitter of the wealth that was
displayed in buildings, ceremonies and the attire of the priests.
This new church followed these same practices, while the true
Church of God did not!
God’s prophets and ministers were to be shown respect for the
position God had given them, but there was never the show of
preeminence, grandiose, glittering ceremonies, or even the
carrying of religious titles. The prophets and ministers of God’s
true Church were to serve in humility of spirit never accepting
adoration of any form. However, this new false church disobeyed
the word of Jesus Christ and took upon itself religious titles as it
willingly received the adoration of the populace.
These are some of the very things that Jesus Christ
condemned in the teachers of Judaism. God’s representatives
were not to be like them:But all their works [Jewish religious teachers] that they
do is to be seen of men. They make their phylacteries
broad [this referenced apparel worn to signify their
eagerness, above other people, to be reminded of the
law of God, and their desire for people to see them as
being more righteous than others], and enlarge the
borders of their garments [an effort to make their
garments appear different from others—to look
religious]. They love the uppermost rooms at feasts
[their motivation was to be seen by others as
important], and the chief seats in the synagogues [they
thirsted for power and authority over others]. They seek
special greetings in the markets, and to be called of
men, Rabbi, Rabbi. But don’t you be called Rabbi [as a
religious title] for one is your Master [religious title],
even Christ and all of you are brothers. Do not call any
man your Father on the earth [as a religious title], for
one is your Father who is in heaven. Neither are you to
be called Masters, for one is your Master, even Christ.
He that is greatest among you shall be your servant
[God’s prophets and ministers are not to be served, but
to serve others]. Whoever shall exalt himself shall be
abased, and he that shall humble himself shall be
exalted. (Matthew 23:5-12)
The counterfeit Christianity adopted the practice of the false
priests of the pagan religions and that of the teachers of Judaism.
They did not adopt the religious title of Rabbi since that was fully
Jewish in origin. Instead, they eventually incorporated titles of
Father, Reverend and Pastor. The chief title of this new religion
belonged to the one who was considered to have preeminence
over all others, and that title was Pope [the Father of all Fathers].
God’s servants do not use religious titles that belong to God.
They do, however, have job descriptions that identify their
specific service to God. Some are apostles, prophets, evangelists,
pastors, elders, etc., but these descriptions are never to be used as
a religious title or personal greeting (address or acknowledgment
to be received from others).source for last 2 post

Read this link, Read about the statue of st peter and how it not really that at all. Everyone blindly kisses and rubs his foot.


www.aloha.net...

Originally posted by Comforter

It seems obvious to me that the Catholic order has turned the original Christianity into a propaganda machine to destroy it’s original roots and teachings

Like the fundamental conservative right hasn't?

IMO Christians follow the message of the bible. How a person chooses to worship and traditions they follow is up to themselves.