Overthrowing the United States Government

reply to post by splendourinthegrass


No, you don't get it. You are attempting to throw all facts out the window and rely on feelings. The problem is that feelings are influenced by numerous contextual factors which is why they cannot be measured against reality.

Here is an elementary example to demonstrate this:

If I am starving and in poverty, and someone gives me one slice of bread, my feeling just went from utterly doomed to extremely happy. Why? Because food tastes really good when your starving. At that moment, you would declare that I have it better than all of the depressed satisfied people who are not starving in first world countries. And yet when we look at the facts, little has changed. The piece of bread will be eaten. The hunger will return. Nothing changes, but I felt better for a little bit.

In the United States, we are told day after day, endlessly, that we have it horrible. From all sources. From ATS - from the media - from politicians trying to throw out whatever party is in power - it comes from all sides. Each one of these sources influences us. If I am told long enough that I should be depressed because life sucks, eventually I will be. This does not mean I am justified in doing so. In this case the facts show life isn't as bad as some people want it to be - which is why you appear to be throwing all data out the window.

The data do not lie. The quality of life in the US is great, far better than any third world country. If you want to revolt because your being told your life sucks all the time, that is fine. But do not try to obfuscate reality - that, in all statistical likelihood, your standard of living far surpasses billions of people on this planet.

Originally posted by splendourinthegrass

How people feel is what it is all about, and that is why statistic juggling is so unconvincing and immaterial to what people believe about themselves and their condition.

When people begin to discern that life, their life, is out of balance, then they start looking at deeper things. But some people are very much locked into on part of their brain for a certain kind of analysis; and any data from opinion or feeling seems too ephemeral, too much like eating candy floss/cotton candy.

Seems a good time for a quote from Mahatma Gandhi, who would advise us all to take the non-violent path of resistance:

“The things that will destroy us are:

Politics without principle;

Pleasure without conscience;

Wealth without work;

Knowledge without character;

Business without morality;

Science without humanity,

And worship without sacrifice.”

MohandasGandhi.com...

reply to post by Pellevoisin


In other words - when all data are to the contrary - DEFLECT, DEFLECT, DEFLECT! Who needs data when we can just tell ourselves life sucks? I mean, really, why in the world would we ever want to make sure we're right about our feelings before starting a revolution?

I guess I can add this to the long list of things that I've learned from ATS:

"Data are not necessary. Do not think. Do not analyze. Go with the flow."

Thank goodness our Founding Fathers seemed to have a put a little bit more analysis into their actions. I'm quite sure if you asked them why they decided to start a revolution, the answer would NOT be: "Because we were feeling bad about life."

[edit on 6-7-2008 by ALightinDarkness]

reply to post by o22a6ar


i agree with you and i really wanna see what it is i can do to fight back, if you can tell me where to go or wat i can do as of right now, please do. the time to fight back is now..now or never!

Originally posted by ALightinDarkness
reply to post by splendourinthegrass

 

No, you don't get it.

No, I got it. And I got it right. Keep churning out your elementary examples and your insistence on statistical data, and don't listen to thing I've said.

The data do not lie.

Actually data is used to tell lies all the time. "Yes, we've got here good intelligence data that Iraq's got Weapons of Mass Destruction". Data is only useful when the right questions are asked and honorable people are using it for the common good. Otherwise it is just another weapon.

The quality of life in the US is great, far better than any third world country.

This is your truth. but it is not truth for others.

If you want to revolt because your being told your life sucks all the time, that is fine. But do not try to obfuscate reality - that, in all statistical likelihood, your standard of living far surpasses billions of people on this planet.

I never obfuscate reality. To the contrary I shine the light on what is truly real.

can we agree this govt is corrupt, they want the population,dumb, dependent, and distracted, we could fix the education problem address the person or persons that is are directly in charge of the first grade child. pay them $50.00 a week to make sure the child goes to school and gets good grades. hell we spend more on them as prisoners. get the first graders used to uniforms in school, forget about the 15 or 16 yr olds the are goners. by the time this first graders get to junior high they will be used to uniforms. no more killing each other over colours and baggy pants. if you do this along with improving the education system, we could imporove the IQ of the country. but wait the govt has a hard time controling educated populaton as proven by this forum. so keep them dependent, take your money and mine away in taxes, give it to the dumb masses if they praise you and do your bidding. distracted the govt brings in the drugs to keep us distracted, keep and eye on the junkie stealing your stuff don't look at what we ( the govt) is doing. DUMB, DEPENDENT, AND DISTRACTE

Originally posted by splendourinthegrass
No, I got it. And I got it right. Keep churning out your elementary examples and your insistence on statistical data, and don't listen to thing I've said.

What you've said is flawed. You've stated how you want to change how we define reality and ignore all data in order to create a revolution based on things which are not true. You still don't get it.

Originally posted by splendourinthegrass
Actually data is used to tell lies all the time. "Yes, we've got here good intelligence data that Iraq's got Weapons of Mass Destruction". Data is only useful when the right questions are asked and honorable people are using it for the common good. Otherwise it is just another weapon.

Your Iraq rant is irrelevant in the context of this discussion. What is it about the human development index that you want to use to argue that any third world country has it better than people do in the United States? What specifically is wrong with it? If you cannot prove a flaw with it, then you've shown that life in the US is far better than you would like people to think. What data do you have that is contrary to what the HDI shows?

Originally posted by splendourinthegrass
This is your truth. but it is not truth for others.

That is reality. It is what the data show, and you have done nothing so far but attempt to deflect from it.

Originally posted by ALightinDarkness
reply to post by Pellevoisin

 

In other words - when all data are to the contrary - DEFLECT, DEFLECT, DEFLECT! Who needs data when we can just tell ourselves life sucks? I mean, really, why in the world would we ever want to make sure we're right about our feelings before starting a revolution?

No. There are all sorts of ways to measure what is going on. You buy into a particular, circumscribed set of data markers. It appears you do not buy into data about public opinion and its significance.

The question about the Founders would show that their distress over conditions was the motivating collective factor. Within that "feeling" you would be able to identify certain data within your sort of methodology like taxation issues. But your method would not necessarily help with the question of why they craved Liberty so much that they were willing to have their lives ruined even as they were willing to lay down their lives for the cause (not the data).

Those in advertising like other market areas would look at data from all angles. The question about what is the operative or final deciding factor in any given area -- the analysis of the brain or the feelings of the heart -- that is not a debate we are likely to settle here.

reply to post by Pellevoisin


Again - deflect, deflect, deflect.

There is a reason why all the data say that life isn't as horrible as you would like it to be, and another reason why you can provide no evidence or contrary data, which when measuring the standard of living, says that the US is doing horribly.

The reason is because your supporting fiction. It is not reflective of reality. It is not founded in data - any data.

And no, the founding Fathers would have had reasons - founded in reality - for why they wanted revolution. They wanted liberty because they knew what it was like when they had none even though they had done nothing to be deprived of their liberties. As bad as you want to make America out to be, you never have and probably never will know that feeling - no one living in a first world democracy currently will.

[edit on 6-7-2008 by ALightinDarkness]

Originally posted by ALightinDarkness
And no, the founding Fathers would have had reasons - founded in reality - for why they wanted revolution. They wanted liberty because they knew what it was like when they had none even though they had done nothing to be deprived of their liberties.

And that is a feeling about what liberty and liberties mean. It is public opinion about events taking place. By way of example, it is not sterile data about having to turn over your home to British soldiers to encamp there -- it is instead a tremendous feeling that it is wrong to do that to free people without their consent.

Anyway you can have the last word. I'm done.

reply to post by splendourinthegrass


And that is just it. If we use the historical data to compare what happened before the revolution to today, you can't even begin to compare.

Anyone who is actually rational should seriously question themselves when no one can provide any objective data for their preposition that life in the US is somehow horrible. If all the data say the opposite...

In the end, I know it doesn't matter. Most of ATS will continue on that long, long tradition led by the media and political parties of telling us how horrible we have it. No data required, just believe. Those who join in on the group think get rewarded with stars, those who question it get bashed.


[edit on 6-7-2008 by ALightinDarkness]

One can most certainly make comparisons between the events before the Revolution in the USA and current times.

Patriot Acts I and II, Executive Order 51 and a host of other executive orders, the erosion of habeus corpus & posse comitatus, misuse of Admiralty law, taxation of the earned income of a flesh and blood person, free speech zones, forced blood tests by policemen blockading highways and streets, spying on all citizens in all sorts of ways... these are all comparable antagonizers to much of what transpired before the Revolution.

A rational and reasonable person would be able to see that.

reply to post by pooty


I don't think you get the picture. How many O/O's are in this country?

And it doesn't have to just be the trucks.

Eye of Eagle

Originally posted by Pellevoisin
One can most certainly make comparisons between the events before the Revolution in the USA and current times.

No, you cannot. I want you to go through and compare 1 event before the Revolution and its impact on citizens, and 1 event today. Your partisanship is showing. While your at it, include how the average person before the Revolution was impacted by the event, and how the average person today is impacted.

A rational and reasonable person would be able to look at the data.

reply to post by Pellevoisin


You know this strike thing could work. If it were to be conducted in the right way logistically, it would get the attention of the whole world in a matter of hours. One rep speaking for the bunch. The people simply asking for questions to answers that are not being given.

This economy will fail in less than 12 months at these current fuel prices. The average person cannot afford to pay these kind of prices.

The average person in this country makes up about 80 percent of the population, the other 19 % is right now buying just enough gas per day to get them through it. The last 1% of the country's poplation, well I don't think I need to tell you about their financial situation. They can afford it.

What are your thoughts on a nation wide strike on the roadways?

Eye of Eagle

reply to post by EYEOFEAGLE


I am convinced that a General Strike can work ... especially if it includes the truckers.

I hope to be posting a new thread on this tomorrow or Tuesday.

May I advise people not to debate with lightinthedarkness as it will prove fruitless to establish a point. The individual is a machine, a computer of over complicated logic that from what I have seen in past threads relies on purely "BE THE BOOK" ideologies founded in the individuals academic livelihood.
Not in anyone elses experience or livelihood, so simply put"you will allways be wrong".
While lightinthedarkness fancies himself/herself a great debater I personally feel the use of circular logic to press issues based on HARD DATA alone to be inconsequential when compared to HARD EXPERIENCE which can be found in abundance from people on ATS.

There is no doubt that lightinthedarkness is very intelligent and well educated on may subjects and for that I lend him a great deal of credence
when it comes to some issues.
I do agree that HARD DATA is a very valuable and necessary requirement in the ongoing search for truth, but it seems that lightinthedarkness has not yet learned that statistics can be skewed for any number of reasons ranging from human error to hardline acts of disinformation and everything in between. Even now I can imagine him asking " where is your proof of that, where is the documentation?"



Overall I feel He is perhaps 50% correct in many of the things that he represents but negates the possablity of being wrong so often that it gives him a sense of superiority and power over others of lesser academic prowess.

Lightinthedarkness you shouldnt over look experience. It can be just as powerful a tool in your arsenal as the hard data in school books and statistical papers.
Hope you dont think Im insulting you thats not my intent, rather Im trying to point out a weakness I see in you based on your debating skills which I might add are very good. I have seen many holes drilled in conspiracies by your debating skills and have had my mind changed on a few occasions. Not this time though I honestly think you need to lighten up and consider the probability that some of what YOU say may be flawed, there is allways that possibility.

I know that my critique will mean nothing to you but I guess you could call me one of your "fans" on ATS.. Though I look at you in an infamous light.
The so called gladiator of debate you love to hate!


You're allright lightinthedarkness.

Free speech you say

uh ok.


"Assassinate the president of the U.S".




[edit on 7-7-2008 by mOOmOO]

It amazes me how jaded people in this country can be sometimes. First off, take a look around you....is life for you that horrible that you need to overthrow the government? If the answer is "yes", then I feel sorry for you.

Is our form of government perfect? Hell no.
Is it better than most? Yes.

Look, democracy takes a lot of work, more than the average citizen is willing to put forth. Hence our hybrid system of government. It's slow, confusing, and often times downright stupid, but for some reason it's turned this chunk of earth into the greatest nation on the planet. Also the greatest empire in recorded history if you want to look at it that way.

We are a republic, not a democracy which is a common misconception. A true democracy cannot, and will not work. So don't be so sore when "YOUR" needs aren't always addressed. If you want your needs addressed then you have to roll up your sleeves and use the current process. Lest you ruin a good thing.


Centralized government should always be kept in check, that point I cannot argue. I will always argue though that right now, things aren't as bad as some people cry about.

Now, if you'll excuse me. This "sheep" needs to go graze.




Note* I'm using the terms 'you' and 'your' in a general sense. It's not directed at any specific person(s).

Here's a way of overthrowing the Government;

Do their job better than them.