Originally posted by Bigwhammy
And how does that relate to creation?

Nah, it doesn't. Just to your use of the Bible.

Originally posted by Bigwhammy
Oh it doesn't - just yet another ATS Christian hater rant.

I don't hate Christians, I was one until not...that long ago. It's just the whole faith part I don't like - the part where you have to reject logic and common sense to accept something that makes little sense.

Originally posted by Bigwhammy
It makes you uncomfortable to think the Bible is true doesn't it? Yeah it did me too when I didn't want to admit God was there. He's watching it all my friend.

I actually think it feels safer to think that it's God is there and the Bible is true and all that. It's a sense of security, knowing absolute right and wrong, an afterlife, an invisible being looking out for you... It's a nice way to feel better.

But the Bible being true...it would make me uncomfortable, just because of some of the repulsive, anti-human things contained within. I would like it if it was a work of man rather than of God directly.

Originally posted by Bigwhammy
If you would stop the simple minded bigotry approach you might learn that. I was like you and I did. But probably just start another Bible bashing thread - I'm sure it will be popular.

I don't normally bash the Bible. I don't like to get involved in religion, because I don't believe in believing in something for no reason other than that it feels nice to do so. Like Santa Claus, sort of. No bigotry here...aside from that contained within the Bible. But at least the Bible isn't as bad as some other books, like the Qur'an.

Want to stop coming back at me with little childish remarks and assuming my atheism?


And I got warned for complaining about how immature toasted's post was. And how immature and assuming (calling me a darwhining atheist, like a child) Conspiriology's post was. That's the deleted post there, and a defense against Conspiriology's accusations which I'm not going to repeat (sadly).

Originally posted by toasted
" Replacing an o with an asterisk is pretty immature. "

Au contrare...it's considered respectful.

Yeah, but it's ultimately a childish sort of censorship. It bothers me for that, I think it's disrespectful to the concept of God (which I do sort of believe in).

Originally posted by Conspiriology
...between the two trolls and Johnmike the Atheist posing as a person

What? Can you stop acting like a child now? Please? Even if you are?


...And Bigwhammy, the big bang is only one theory. Scientific consensus doesn't really do much, and I can tell you're not a scientist just because of how you don't understand that. Well, and because of the fact that you don't know how to apply the scientific method to the world around you, but that's beside the point. At one point, bloodletting was a universal cure, as was drilling a hole into your skull, as were lobotomies. The Earth used to be flat, the sun used to go around the Earth, atoms used to be the smallest, indivisible form of matter. Fungus and bacteria would arise spontaneously from rotting food, illness was caused by an imbalance of fluids rather than bacteria and viruses, and proteins were thought to code for our genes! I really don't think anyone alive right now can make such conclusions regarding cosmology, let alone you!

Originally posted by Conspiriology
Oh come off it mel that statement was so ignorant, it made me whince reading it. The only post more asinine was johnny Atheists

- Con

There's actually an important point in there about the Kalam argument. It's something philosophers of science go to extremes to make clear to scientists about the truth value of statements and claims. About taking the specific and generalising.

I did originally have a somewhat long-winded post, but I remembered you saying that whammy was the logical thinker (lulz) in your little team. So I thought he could work it out for hisself and hence deleted it before posting.

Hey-ho (or perhaps gobble gobble).

[edit on 6-7-2008 by melatonin]

Originally posted by Bigwhammy
If I had a nickel for each time I heard "Evolution is a scientific fact" around here I would be a rich man. So how ironic the very same folks shift the goal posts and call the Big Bang Creation "just a theory". ZOMG hypocrisy abounds

Lulz.

Evolution is a fact and theory. It is an observable scientific fact that life has evolved and diversified over time on the earth. The theory of evolution accounts for how this occured.

There is no big bang creation, that's just your wishful-thinking. There is a big bang cosmology in physics though, and that is a theory. It is essentially an inflationary theory. So, using the same ideas, it is an observable scientific fact that cosmological background radiation exists, and BB theory accounts for it.

The facts are the data. The theories the explanations. Pick up a book on the philosophy of science, it might explain this sort of stuff for you. It might also cure your naive inductivism.

Originally posted by Bigwhammy
Funny how Darwinists get their panties in a wad when Christians say the same thing about evolution. ROFL

Darwinism isn't really evolution. And vice versa. Evolution...some parts of it are true, period. Like natural selection. Random mutation and microevolution is pretty much fact, as you see in bacteria and viruses. The question is more about macroevolution and speciation. You can't point and laugh at evolution as a whole, because it's too broad.

I understand why people find it appealing to argue Creation as a whole. But using a scientific base to argue absolute concepts is shaky.

Now there are different types of absolutes.

The speed of light is absolute in a vacuum, but even this is circumvented by quantum tunneling.

The concept and necessity of God- argued a priori recursively until we reach day 0- is undeniable. But this is only God as an abstract concept, a word to imply what was there before this -everything- was there.

The concept and necessity of God- argued from a humanistic/philosophical point of creator, requires at least two things to hold:
1. He is absolute
2. He is unique

There cannot be any connect between necessary-God and philosophical-God because to imply they are the same he must have existed before AND now- which naturally leads to one of two conclusions:


1) He is separate from everything/existence and as such nothing can ever bridge this gap- most definitely not science (its not even trying to) for if it could, the bridge-builder would become God.

This invalidates the philosophical tenants of absoluteness and oneness of God.

Which logically leads to:

2) He is not separate meaning that God is part of existence, and as such part of every single one of us. By self-ontology every single person is god, ergo your proof reduces to proving the existence of self.

But if you could prove the existence of self, then so can everyone else and again the premises of absoluteness and oneness are invalidated, and a proof by contradiction occurs- eg: He must be separate.
___________________________________________________________


Of course as a stopgap to 2) you can simply argue that all humans are interconnected and share a commonness - which is where current mainstream philosophy is at- and so God is part of everyone and everyone is part of everyone- but in practice this hasn't really worked out so well, what with all the war famine poverty and malice humans have for each other.

Please note that at no point should you use science to prop up any type of belief, its bad science to have bias before beginning an argument. I hope I have convinced you that you do not need (or should use) science to prove or disprove the existence of God, since that is a philosophical debate and nothing to do with evidence, theorems or research.


If you think about it logically, imagine the universe as a jar of ants covered by a blanket, and God is someone outside of the jar- you are arguing something we can never see, since we can never remove the blanket, only look back to the exact moment the blanket was put on top of us. But who knows maybe one day we will tunnel through it

Originally posted by Johnmike

Originally posted by Bigwhammy
Funny how Darwinists get their panties in a wad when Christians say the same thing about evolution. ROFL

Darwinism isn't really evolution. And vice versa. Evolution...some parts of it are true, period. Like natural selection. Random mutation and microevolution is pretty much fact, as you see in bacteria and viruses. The question is more about macroevolution and speciation. You can't point and laugh at evolution as a whole, because it's too broad.

I mostly agree with you here Johnmike. That's your best post yet. I am impressed.

Darwinism is pretty much a neoatheist religion these days.

Mel is one of the altar boys.

Originally posted by Bigwhammy

First I am not doing science. More like reporting science.....

Okay, can you please elaborate on the evidence you believe supports/connects a creator mechanism of existence being a Christian God. Now it's fine that you believe since Christianity follows the one true God- he must also be the creator God, but that is not really evidence.

I do agree with you that using astronomy and constructing possible models of universe beginnings we can leave the door open for an unknown spark, or many sparks, or deterministic action outside the scope of everything we can currently measure and foresee.

But I have to remind you there is a big difference between how the universe was created the resulting radiation/mass pressure war that ensued and lead to star formation- and the chance factor of how the Solar System was created, and namely how life on Earth evolved.

Changing the classical theistic argument "God created life on Earth" to "God created the universe, which/then (in)directly created life on Earth" has problems, because it implies- at the mathematical level- complete determinism, meaning whilst we may have free will- the universe and everything in it, including the spin state of particles, the past and future evolution of stars, galaxies, nebulae, clusters- is already determined. But we as humans can affect things around us, and change them- so the problem is pretty simple- either we have no free will, or God inbuilt the universe to react in a certain way to all our actions so no true randomness exists, meaning we don't really have any free will anyway, since at the 'God' level, it's always possible for him to predict what will happen.
But he can do that since he's God.

Do you see how there is a break in logic here? It's hard to use a rational argument against God, since he can simply invalidate it by being God- hithero any irrational argument for God can be rationalized by invoking that God is God.

I completely disagree that it has nothing to do with evidence.

But evidence is not belief, you can turn evidence into a belief but not a belief into evidence. Please do not think I am trying to offend you or test your faith in the slightest. You are free to believe as you wish, but not as free to interpret and extrapolate data to fit that belief- since here you begin trying to justify something you should not be trying to justify at all.

...all have graves where they are buried. Jesus Christ does not. That's evidence. There were many first hand witnesses - that's evidence.

Sorry not evidence.

Archeology confirms biblical accounts - that's evidence.

If parts of the Bible are true does this mean all of it is true?

The Bible accurately predicts the future thats evidence.

Oh? Do you really think this is plausible?

So when science refutes a long held materialist stronghold like the steady state theory of an infinite universe to support the Bibles claim of creation. I am going to incorporate that into my evidence as well. I think it would be rather short sighted not too.

I'm sorry but using divisive rhetoric merely reinforces a long standing point.

The crux of the issue (no pun intended) is this-

Common sense dictates that the Bible is a collection of allegories to help people live their lives in a good honest way, cherish each other, love God.

Taking any other view, such as 'there is only one true creator God' or the 'us versus them' mentality just creates problems for the entire world. What happens when everyone has converted to Christianity, and you no longer think you have to defend your beliefs? Heaven-on-Earth like a switch?

Inbuilt inside all religions is dissent. If everyone was good and righteous there would be no sinners, no hell- so trying to convert others, even spreading your message is ultimately doomed- since you know at the coming of the Rapture not all are saved

Originally posted by bigbert81


When Victor or I say 'cause', once again YOU are thinking CAUSE and EFFECT, while I am talking RANDOMNESS, therefore WITHOUT CAUSE. You see, there's more than the one definition for the word 'cause', but you seem to have forgotten that in your haste to use, yet again, another 'satirical' post.

Bask in your glory. - whammy

Oh, I intend to, because you just stuck your foot in your mouth.

Is THAT what you think??

Naw,, sorry smart guy,, but again,, you keep spitting out more pieces of your broken argument. Burt you remind me of lash because, like him, you can talk like you think you know what you are talking about but again,, you can't even keep track of your own arguments much less whammy's. Do you have ANY idea the many times you have accused him of insulting you while in the same post, imply you have superior debate skill??

Hell, you're so vain, you even come off as cocky as someone who actually thinks WE see you as YOU see yourself!

So in the intertest of putting your best foot foward, lets not assume it is whammy whose foot is in his mouth as I show you the whole shoe store you are going to put in yours.

ready???

SPLENDID!

READ your posts troll and, lets see what the facts are and the facts are undeniable

The most telling example of your so called logical critical thinking mind (as if) is when you whammy calls it like it clearly is with you Bert, when he said:

but savage might be a more apt term for your displayed demeanor. - whammy

yeah,, savage whoo that is one harsh expletive there! Gee rather than just acknowledge what is and HAS been so obvious for quite sometime now, that being your mouthy monosyllabic diatribe trolling him like a rabid wolverinve in every thread. You go on pushing your self puffery and alleged superior intellect with your highly esteemed educated calls to atheist's highest authority in all academia.

Again, you expected us to go Gah Gah!
Pffffft!

Then when we don't get all Gah Gah as you do, not being as easily impressed, you get your undies in a bunch over it. Another wedgie as seen here in these posts.

So far you have been called savage! Jeez I should BE so insulted!

Whammy, this is going to be my last post most likely, as debating with you is like debating with a child.- bigbert81

You are being immature and attempting to make a mockery of me when y our brain cannot seem to comprehend my statements - bigbert81

I keep forgetting I truly am in a 'Logic-free zone'.- bigbert81

C'mon Whammy, think before you talk - bigbert81

I don't think I've ever dealt with anyone as delusional as you are.- bigbert81

Now up to this point all you had was the suggestion your demneanor was "savage" I guess the the more whammy tried to hint at that "demeanor" you got. but THIS??

Ahhh yes, and here come the insults. Boy, it's a good thing that you felt your post wasn't quite complete without the usual insult thrown in at the last moment. I was getting worried there.

Wow it amazes me just reading your "stuff" and you wonder why he doesn't read what you post or links you leave. I mean it is one thing to get lippy, I do,, but C'mon?? Savage?? HA HA HA

Then came the creme de la creme of your tete e tete where you really lay em out with this line

When Victor or I say 'cause', once again YOU are thinking CAUSE and EFFECT, while I am talking RANDOMNESS, therefore WITHOUT CAUSE. You see, there's more than the one definition for the word 'cause', but you seem to have forgotten that in your haste to use, yet again, another 'satirical' post.

you just stuck your foot in your mouth.

Funny thing is,, you never said any such thing about randomness in fact it was whammy who brought up Cause and Effect and THAT is the only reason YOU mention it.

It says because the universe began to exist it has a cause. - whammy

No, Whammy. Just because it exists does not mean it has a cause. You're making stuff up again. - bigbert81

So as far as who is thinking what,, whammy had every reason to think cause and effect and no reason to think you meant random. He had every reason to think cause and effect and you have NO excuse to think any other possible "cause" was on the table, and ya know why smart guy???

I never said "it exists therefore it has a cause".

Science is founded on the law of causation which is premise one.
Read the first premise over 3 times until the difference sinks in:

1."Everything that begins to exist has a cause"
2. "Everything that begins to exist has a cause"
3. "Everything that begins to exist has a cause"

Do you deny that? Well you can throw out science then. Science is a search for causes. - whammy

That's why, and it would of been a pretty good idea to bring up that random crap about that time, so unless you think whammy is a mind reader..

Enjoy the shoe leather!

you lose

- Con







[edit on 7-7-2008 by Conspiriology]