Obama flip flops, typical politician, NO HE CANT

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posted on Jul, 4 2008 @ 07:46 AM
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Originally posted by jamie83
the MSM has suddenly started pointing out Obama's flaws, inexperience, and inconsistencies?


He makes so darn many of them that to continue to ignore them just shows the MSM for the biased idiots that they are.

Have you tried to stomach MSNBC?
It's the Obama-channel.




posted on Jul, 4 2008 @ 08:25 AM
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Originally posted by sos37
BH, even if Obama does a complete 180 and says he now believes we need to stay in Iraq another 5 years, you know and we all know you would vote for him.


Yesterday, when I read this opening post, I had some doubts. Believe that or not - I don't care. Anyone with a brain should be able to tell that from my first post, though.

However, doing my own research (which I always like to do)
and getting more than one viewpoint (which I also like to do), and actually listening to what the man said instead of what people *think* he should have said (or hope he said), I found that Obama never actually made a promise - and I realize he couldn't have made a promise (since he's not the president).

So, how can he break a promise that he never made?

He has not changed his position on Iraq. He has not changed his plans on Iraq. He said he would refine his plans as he got more information (which makes perfect sense to me).

refine: to improve or perfect by pruning or polishing; to make improvement by introducing subtleties or distinctions

And the GOP and other Obama-haters, such as we see here, seized on that statement, like a foaming, mad dog and made it out to be something it wasn't. Classic GOP fear-mongering strategy.

So, you are incorrect, my little friend. If Obama did a complete 180 and said we were going to be in Iraq for another 5 years, I do not know that I would vote for him. You may feel that you know what I would do, But I'm sure it's not the first time you're wrong.

No matter how soon he gets us out of Iraq, though, it's going to be sooner than McCain.



There's nothing he could do to make you not vote for him because he's just so gosh-darned cute, isn't he???


Well, I agree... He is pretty adorable.
But I didn't know you thought so...



posted on Jul, 4 2008 @ 09:31 AM
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Barack Obama is a perfect example of why lawyers make great politicians. They're masters at parsing words and misrepresenting facts. Lies and deceptions are their stock in trade. They never really say what they mean, or mean what they say..

He's not even the President yet, but already he's trying to wriggle out of his election promises.


Original promise from his web site:


“Obama will immediately begin to remove our troops from Iraq. He will remove one to two combat brigades each month, and have all of our combat brigades out of Iraq within 16 months. Obama will make it clear that we will not build any permanent bases in Iraq. He will keep some troops in Iraq to protect our embassy and diplomats; if al Qaeda attempts to build a base within Iraq, he will keep troops in Iraq or elsewhere in the region to carry out targeted strikes on al Qaeda.”


What he says now:


“My 16-month timeline, if you examine everything that I’ve said, was always premised on making sure that our troops were safe,” he said. “I said that based on the information that we had received from our commanders that one to two brigades a month could be pulled out safely, from a logistical perspective. My guiding approach continues to be that we’ve got to make sure that our troops are safe and that Iraq is stable. I’m going to continue to gather information to find out whether those conditions still hold.”


Source


[edit on 7/4/08 by LLoyd45]



posted on Jul, 4 2008 @ 10:25 AM
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reply to post by LLoyd45
 


Lloyd, You should really read the thread.
This has been addressed. A PLAN is not the same thing as a PROMISE. I don't know about you, but if my husband, on our wedding day, had said, "I plan to be faithful to you"... we wouldn't have gotten married.


And, you bold where Obama said "if you examine everything that I’ve said" as if that's a bad thing. Don't you think we SHOULD examine everything our leaders and politicians say? Or should we just imagine that they said one thing when they really said another? That seems to be a pretty popular thing to do here.


If we're going to hire this man to lead our country, you damn well better believe I'm going to examine everything he says... with a fine-tooth comb.

And I have. And what he says now is exactly the same thing he said then. No flip-flop, no lie. The "deceit" exists only in the heads of those who WANT him to have lied. If they don't listen to what he says and instead, make up "promises" he supposedly made (and act like victims of those promises), that's certainly no fault of HIS.

He says exactly what he means. (That's why it's so important that we examine it.) It's only when people put words in his mouth that it appears that he lied. Nowhere did he "promise" to stick with a hard and fast exit strategy. You guys are making that up. Without the fantasy that he "promised" something in the first place, you have nothing.

Sometimes, I swear, You guys sound like crying baby girls throwing a temper tantrum.



posted on Jul, 4 2008 @ 10:29 AM
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Originally posted by LLoyd45
Barack Obama is a perfect example of why lawyers make great politicians. They're masters at parsing words and misrepresenting facts. Lies and deceptions are their stock in trade. They never really say what they mean, or mean what they say..

He's not even the President yet, but already he's trying to wriggle out of his election promises.


Original promise from his web site:


“Obama will immediately begin to remove our troops from Iraq.


Source


[edit on 7/4/08 by LLoyd45]



Lloyd, I have news for you. This wasn't a *promise*, it was a PLAN.

See, it's ok to say you have a PLAN to do something instead of promising it because everybody knows plans can change. Like today I planned to have a picnic, but it's raining so I changed my plans.

When Obama was running in the primaries his PLAN was to immediately pull troops from Iraq. The liberal base of the party LOVED this plan. But now that the primaries are over, Barry O. suddenly must have realized he needs to reevaluate his PLAN.

What's really ironic is he prefaces his plan with the line, "Judgment You Can Trust."

Well, what type of judgment does he have if he planned to immediately withdraw the troops last week, but now must think about a new plan this week?

And BH, the more you try to rationalize this and explain it as some sort of sign of Barry O.'s deep thinking or other such nonsense, the more you exemplify why many people think of Obama followers as Kool Aid drinkers, Obamatrons, etc.

There's no explaining this away other than what it is. Obama led people to believe -NO, he made the cornerstone of his campaign the position that he was always against the war and would immediately withdraw the troops from Iraq. Now suddenly that he's campaigning against McCain and he needs to appear less loopy than he really is, he needs to equivocate.

I bet he's not going to repeat ANY of what he said on this video before the election... just a hunch.




posted on Jul, 4 2008 @ 10:33 AM
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Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic

Lloyd, You should really read the thread.
This has been addressed. A PLAN is not the same thing as a PROMISE. I don't know about you, but if my husband, on our wedding day, had said, "I plan to be faithful to you"... we wouldn't have gotten married.


So when I find a series of quotes where Obama says things like "I will immediately withdraw the troops from Iraq" are you going to finally admit you're wrong about this?

I guarantee he said this dozens of times in his speeches. I'm about to go out for the day, so anybody else who wants to find one of these speeches feel free to post it here.

When somebody says "I WILL blah blah blah blah blah..." that's unequivocal, don't you think?



posted on Jul, 4 2008 @ 10:42 AM
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Originally posted by jamie83
And BH, the more you try to rationalize this and explain it ... the more you exemplify why many people think of Obama followers as Kool Aid drinkers, Obamatrons, etc.


Well, jamie, if I cared what you thought, I would stop.

If the best these people can do is regurgitate the tired labels of "Kool-aid drinker", "Obamatron" and "flip-flopper!", like something heard on a 3rd-grade playground, instead of addressing the facts of the matter, that, sir, does not reflect on me, but on their lack of imagination and sorry debating abilities.



posted on Jul, 4 2008 @ 10:51 AM
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Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
Lloyd, You should really read the thread.
This has been addressed. A PLAN is not the same thing as a PROMISE. I don't know about you, but if my husband, on our wedding day, had said, "I plan to be faithful to you"... we wouldn't have gotten married.
I did read the thread BH. As I pointed out he likes to parse words and misrepresent facts. Politicians make campaign promises, not plans. The substition of the word "plan" for "promise" is a recent invention of mealy-mouthed lawyer-types that want to leave themselve's a little wiggle room.


And, you bold where Obama said "if you examine everything that I’ve said" as if that's a bad thing. Don't you think we SHOULD examine everything our leaders and politicians say? Or should we just imagine that they said one thing when they really said another? That seems to be a pretty popular thing to do here.
I was pointing out his attempt at disingenuousness BH, sorry you failed to get it..


If we're going to hire this man to lead our country, you damn well better believe I'm going to examine everything he says... with a fine-tooth comb.
No you won't.. You're one of his hardcore disciples, and you could care the least whether he misrepresents the facts or not. Let's get real.. You've made over twenty spin threads on him, and criticize anyone who disagrees with you. Anyone who doubts what I'm saying simply needs to view your profile.


And I have. And what he says now is exactly the same thing he said then. No flip-flop, no lie. The "deceit" exists only in the heads of those who WANT him to have lied. If they don't listen to what he says and instead, make up "promises" he supposedly made (and act like victims of those promises), that's certainly no fault of HIS.
I'm not a victim.. I know he's a liar, and if you weren't so fanatical, you'd acknowledge it too.


He says exactly what he means. (That's why it's so important that we examine it.) It's only when people put words in his mouth that it appears that he lied. Nowhere did he "promise" to stick with a hard and fast exit strategy. You guys are making that up. Without the fantasy that he "promised" something in the first place, you have nothing.
As I said, he's a mealy-mouthed politician and lawyer.


[edit on 7/4/08 by LLoyd45]



posted on Jul, 4 2008 @ 10:56 AM
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Originally posted by jamie83
So when I find a series of quotes where Obama says things like "I will immediately withdraw the troops from Iraq" are you going to finally admit you're wrong about this?


I can't say - until I see it and check the context. If it's prefaced with or followed by, "As long as it's safe for the troops..." then, no. Taking something out of context doesn't count.

OR if he says, My plan for getting out of Iraq is to immediately withdraw the troops from Iraq. Then no. That's a plan. You guys want that to be a "promise", but that doesn't make it so. People make plans. As far as I know, the plan is in tact. There have been no changes.

Secondly, you'll have to show the OTHER side. By that, I mean you'll have to show where he NOW says that he's NOT going to immediately withdraw ANY troops from Iraq. And I don't believe he has said that.

So, I seriously doubt that there's anything for me to "admit".



posted on Jul, 4 2008 @ 04:30 PM
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reply to post by josephine
 


What is "the obama plan" exactly? You act like we're gonna be worst off than your almighty bush has us already. Let me ask you; what has Mc Cain done to win your vote besides not being obama? You and Eric spend so much time bashing obama that you probably dont know y you like mccain..

Bush already left us with "change".



posted on Jul, 4 2008 @ 04:38 PM
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He is being completely disingenuousness. He pandered to the people telling them his 'plan'. He advertised it. He spoke about it. It was boldly exclaimed on his web site. He knew that the 'plan' was what they would expect him to do. Then it suddenly 'changes'.

This is just poltiics as usual. NO change. NO hope. NO unity.

He got the nomination based largely upon his intent on Iraq. Now, when he has the nomination secured, he stops pandering and 'changes' his mind. He got the nomination based on pandering .. nothing more.




posted on Jul, 4 2008 @ 04:45 PM
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Originally posted by FlyersFan
Now, when he has the nomination secured, he stops pandering and 'changes' his mind.


I don't suppose you can show me where he has stated his new position? If he "changed his mind" from saying he wants to bring the troops home at a rate of 1-2 combat brigades a month, as long as it can be done safely, and at that rate, we would be virtually out of Iraq in 16 months, where is his new position?

What did he change his mind TO?



posted on Jul, 4 2008 @ 07:28 PM
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There is no promise by Obama. Nor is there a plan. It is a best case scenario. A real plan can not be created or implemented unless he is elected Here is the proof as stated by one of his senior foreign policy advisor.

www.politico.com...

In this source he says he WILLend the war in 2009. Will is a strong word. However within same video he gives himself lea way by saying he will do it carefully. Might have even contradicted himself.. you decide

www.liveleak.com...

This other source just seems interesting.

www.ft.com...

I find the first one to be important because it puts into perspective that what he is planning or promising, depending on how you see it, will never be delivered upon. I won't call it a lie I see it more as good intentions based on false realities. By the way I am not slamming him or any other candidate I just enjoy giving info so people can see for themselves.



posted on Jul, 4 2008 @ 09:43 PM
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I am so sick of people watching Obama's every move waiting for that gotcha moment. You people already have a preconceived notion of him and want to use whatever news you can find to fit your beliefs. For Christ sake the man has not even changed his stance. He simply said that when he goes to Iraq and speaks to the commanders and they tell him that his plan will put the troops in danger, he may change his plan. Christ we get it you don't like him



posted on Jul, 5 2008 @ 07:10 AM
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reply to post by Anonymous ATS
 


Intersting. Not hearing much about Grandpa...didn't he say 100 years to go in Iraq? God, you people need to take the sunglasses off and have a look around!



posted on Jul, 5 2008 @ 10:27 AM
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Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic

If the best these people can do is regurgitate the tired labels of "Kool-aid drinker", "Obamatron" and "flip-flopper!", like something heard on a 3rd-grade playground, instead of addressing the facts of the matter, that, sir, does not reflect on me, but on their lack of imagination and sorry debating abilities.


I wasn't calling you those names. I was pointing out why the whole phenomenon of people thinking that Obama supporters are cult-like has come about. And I AM the one addressing the FACTS. It's you who are attempting to twist the facts.

Back on point, here's a direct question to you:

If I provide sources and direct evidence of Obama stating "When I'm elected President, I will immediately begin the withdrawal of troops from Iraq.." (APPLAUSE APPLAUSE APPLAUSE HOOTING HOLLERING MORE APPLAUSE)...

...will you admit that this crosses the line from a PLAN to a PROMISE?



posted on Jul, 5 2008 @ 11:08 AM
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Obama Pushes for Iraq Pullout Deadline
www.washingtonpost.com...

Obama - Iraq Troop Withdrawal
www.youtube.com...



posted on Jul, 5 2008 @ 12:29 PM
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BH,

For clarification, you're saying Barack Obama has not gone back on any of his campaign pledges, specifically the one regarding troop withdrawals from Iraq?

[edit on 7/5/08 by LLoyd45]



posted on Jul, 5 2008 @ 02:17 PM
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[edit on 023131p://bSaturday2008 by Stormdancer777]



posted on Jul, 5 2008 @ 09:03 PM
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Well, at least Obama is making a point to reassess his plan and formulate something more concrete, by way of going to Iraq and seeing everything going on there, BEFORE the election in November. If he completely flip-flops, at least it's not last minute.

Not saying I approve, of course. Because I don't.





 
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