Ron Paul and the Coming Collapse - a 4th of July pause for reflection

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posted on Jul, 3 2008 @ 01:44 PM
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I apologize to anyone who is actually looking to participate in a real discussion here.

I do not want this to turn into another flame war over political ideology, there are enough of those going around as it is.


Let's try to at least be civil here, myself included.

All ideas and opinions are welcomed and appreciated as long as they are respectful.

[edit on 7/3/08 by BlackOps719]




posted on Jul, 3 2008 @ 01:54 PM
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Originally posted by BlackOps719
Yes...God forbid anyone actually attempt to spend American tax dollars on actual programs to help Americans.


Yeah, that's the same excuse every politician uses for their pork projects.

And it runs contrary to Paul's claims that he only wants to spend money as the Constitution mandates.


Originally posted by BlackOps719
And that source looks a little bit suspect, what neo-can think tank do you suppose created that little study?


Why don't you actually try reading it, instead of passing judgement because they dare criticize your messiah?


Originally posted by BlackOps719
Let's compare the pork barrell projects of Ron Paul to the multi billion dollar per day spending that is being literally flushed down the toilet on the G.W. Bush war of terror. See how those numbers shake out.


And somehow that makes Paul's lies better?



posted on Jul, 3 2008 @ 02:00 PM
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i]reply to post by LLoyd45
 




"A recession is when your neighbor loses his home, a depression is when you lose yours". It's simply a matter of perspective.
[


That is a great quote and couldn't be any more true to life than what we see going on right now.

People really dont get rattled until it hits them where they live, but in this case I think things are going to deteriorate so quickly it may catch a lot of people off guard.

I don't like being part of the "doom and gloom" crowd, but it is pretty hard to ignore a lot of what I see happening right now to middle class folks. This thing will eventually bottom out, how badly nobody seems to really know.

What bothers me most is it doesnt seem to even be a real issue with the other two mainstream candidates.To listen to those guys tell it, you would think we are heading for nothing but green pastures.

I just don't see that being the case, and if you listen to what Dr. Paul is saying it makes a heck of a lot of sense.



posted on Jul, 3 2008 @ 02:02 PM
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reply to post by SaviorComplex
 


SaviorComplex,
Give it a rest please instead of provoking and carrying out a flaming war with other people here.
Aren't there like a dozen or so other threads you can post things going against RP other than this one?
And your attempts are pretty futile since the man dropped out of the race.



posted on Jul, 3 2008 @ 02:05 PM
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reply to post by SaviorComplex
 




I really fail to see where you have proven or illustrated where Dr. Paul has lied about anything.


Like I said before, people who live in glass houses and all of that jazz.


I would love to sit down and type out all of the lies that the Bush administration has perpetrated since their hostile take over, but quite frankly I don't have that kind of time and ATS servers would possibly be ill equipped to handle that amount of data.

One thing is for certain, at least Ron Paul doesn't have the blood of 4,000+ American troops on his hands, not to mention the tens of thousands of Iraqi's who have been slaughtered in the name of Bush's brand of instilling "democracy" to a nation of people that never asked for it to begin with.



posted on Jul, 3 2008 @ 02:12 PM
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reply to post by BlackOps719
 
I hope to God I'm completely wrong and everything turns out all rosy this Fall, but I don't believe that will be the case. The alarm has been sounded.. Who here will heed it?

Prudent people will be making preparations for themselves and their loved ones. If not, they have no one to blame but themselves.



posted on Jul, 3 2008 @ 02:18 PM
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Originally posted by BlackOps719
I really fail to see where you have proven or illustrated where Dr. Paul has lied about anything.


He says he is against pork spending. He claims to only want to spend money as the Constitution mandates. Yet, he still requests it

Here are his earmark requests. (You can find an abbreviated list here)


Originally posted by BlackOps719
I would love to sit down and type out all of the lies that the Bush administration has perpetrated since their hostile take over...


Who said anything about Bush. Talking about Bush's misdeeds does not excuse nor make up for Paul's misdeeds. What you are attempting to do is distract from the fact Paul has mislead everyone and behaves just like every other politician.



posted on Jul, 3 2008 @ 02:25 PM
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I just bought a copy of his book The Revolution: A Manifesto. So far everything I've read makes complete sense. Maybe he isn't a great orator, but he's definitely a great writer.



posted on Jul, 3 2008 @ 02:28 PM
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Originally posted by spec_ops_wannabe
SaviorComplex,
Give it a rest please instead of provoking and carrying out a flaming war with other people here.


First off, this is a discussion board. Discussing and voicing my opinion of Ron Paul is not "provoking a flame war" even if my opinion is harsh or contrary to the love-sonnets typically posted here. This is not an echo-chamber. If you do not wish to see someone criticize (and admittedly, poke a little fun) Ron Paul, perhaps you should find forums on Ron Paul's webpage. Or you could complain to the moderators. Or better yet, you can the ignore function.


Originally posted by spec_ops_wannabe
Aren't there like a dozen or so other threads you can post things going against RP other than this one? And your attempts are pretty futile since the man dropped out of the race.


Just as the praise and worship of the man is a bit futile since he dropped out of the race. I could do it in another thread, but where would the fun be in doing that? But seriously, I wanted to present the other side, show he is not worthy of the fawning praise. He is a politician, just like the rest, and a particularly insidious one. Beware of anyone who props themselves up as a messiah or "last best hope."



posted on Jul, 3 2008 @ 02:32 PM
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Originally posted by LLoyd45
I call them like I see them BH. What do you care anyway? You have your Obama goggles on, and could care the least about the facts.


Just so you know - You are putting me in a basket of "Obama worshippers" and I do not belong there. Yes, I will vote for Obama, but only because Ron Paul isn't running. And I disagree with Obama on many things (as I do with Paul).


You and I finally agree on something.


Actually, after reading this thread, I'm rethinking that "falling on deaf ears" thing you said. I now see what you meant.




posted on Jul, 3 2008 @ 02:38 PM
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Frankly, folks, it is too late. Even if Paul were elected - and I'd vote for him in a second - and we actually got a House and Senate who's collective head was out where the sun does shine, the momentum behind this train is too much.

There's going to be a crash, no matter what. And yeah, I think fairly soon. It could come in the form of an 'incident' in, say, October...
or maybe not...

All an honorable and competent government can do at this stage is try to soften the landing... and we have neither an honorable nor a competent government at the moment, and aren't likely to get one any time soon.



posted on Jul, 3 2008 @ 02:52 PM
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reply to post by SaviorComplex
 



Easy to criticize when you have no vested interest here, no dog in the race if you will. I will humor you though for the sake of doing so.

A minor failure of understanding I believe is done hear on your part. Earmarks do NOT increase the amount of money being spent in a budget, they request that certain designated portions of the already requested amount be “EARMARKED” toward certain projects and concepts.

PORK is added onto a bill to get additional funding for something often times unrelated to the bill. PORK is unconstitutional. Earmarks are not. So your argument has a blinding fallacy in that you fail to understand what earmarks are in the first place. This is where you are mistaken.

By passing on the earmarks but voting against the bill, Paul is saying, “I disagree with this budget but if it passes I want to make sure my district receives their fair portion.” He is only looking out for his constituency, which is not a negative, if anything it is a positive.


Absolutely nothing wrong with that. I hope that isnt the best slander that you could come up with because it is fairly weak.



Here are the reasons that I believe in Ron Paul's message:


* Limit big government in American citizens personal lives

* Give the authority to set their own course back to the state and the people

* Withdraw out troops from every foreign country and focus our money as well as our time and effort on fixing and improving our infrstructure

* Serious monetary reform, abolishment of the Fed as well as the IRS

* Butting out of the affairs of other foreign nations in which we have no authority over

* Reforming immigration policy on illegal entry and closing the American border for safety and economic reason, while fostering and encouraging LEGAL entrance and citizenship

* Getting back to the basic values and principles of our constitution as it is intended to be implemented

* Reducing tax burdens and government imposed extortion of middle class American families


What is there NOT to agree with? I don't get it.



posted on Jul, 3 2008 @ 02:54 PM
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reply to post by Open_Minded Skeptic
 




I agree on your time line of October.


It has already been pre-planned and agreed upon. Something has to save the neo-con boat from sinking, I would expect either a false flag of some sort or an invasion of Iran. They are banking on a war or serious catastrophe to save John Mccain at the polls.

Otherwise he is dead meat. Hello President Obama.



posted on Jul, 3 2008 @ 03:27 PM
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Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic

Just so you know - You are putting me in a basket of "Obama worshippers" and I do not belong there. Yes, I will vote for Obama, but only because Ron Paul isn't running. And I disagree with Obama on many things (as I do with Paul).
If you're not one of his disciples, why is it you immediately attack any post or poster that fails to sing his praises?

Why is it you have posted no less than 20 threads putting a positive spin on Barack Obama?


[edit on 7/3/08 by LLoyd45]



posted on Jul, 3 2008 @ 03:47 PM
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reply to post by LLoyd45
 


I'm going to U2U you as to avoid taking this thread (further) off topic.



posted on Jul, 3 2008 @ 03:51 PM
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reply to post by Benevolent Heretic
 




No worries, BH.


This thread was derailed half way through page one. Can't see how you could do much harm here



posted on Jul, 3 2008 @ 04:52 PM
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I was planning on voting for Paul this year but looks like he wont even be on the ballot. He was the best man for the job he just went up againt the media and the GOP and was shown the door. Shows how politics in America work these days. He should be commended for trying to fix the country too bad he didnt get a fair shake.



posted on Jul, 3 2008 @ 05:05 PM
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OK, Blackops.
Here's an edited version of what I sent Lloyd.



Originally posted by LLoyd45
If you're not one of his disciples, why is it you immediately attack any post or poster that fails to sing his praises?


There is a lot of ground between "failing to sing his praises" and "attacking him with lies and rumors". I DO respond to posts that are nothing but lies and rumors. I "attack" those lies and rumors and my weapon is the truth.

I would like to see these attacks on posters you speak of. I'm not in the habit of attacking posters. I don't agree with your claim that I attack posters.

Disagreement is not the same thing as attack.

I support Obama for president, but that doesn't mean I am a "disciple" any more than the idea that everyone who doesn't support him is a racist. That's all just bull# distraction. I know he's a politician and will make terrible mistakes and I will disagree with some things he does. I already do!

I disagree with Obama on his gun control and immigration stances. And more. But those are the 2 biggies. I'm VERY conservative in those areas.



Why is it you have posted no less than 20 threads putting a positive spin on Barack Obama?


What I have posted about him is what I believe. It's MY "spin", my opinion, what I have learned and what I believe.

My reasons for posting positively about him are basically the same as your reasons for posting negatively about him. I like him. You don't. So everything you say about him and his supporters is negative, hateful and "spun" in a miserable light.

What's the difference? Two sides of the same coin.

** Then there was some lovey-dovey-kissy-face stuff at the end that I won't post here.
**



posted on Jul, 3 2008 @ 05:22 PM
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reply to post by Benevolent Heretic
 




Everyone is entitled to their own opinion and I certainly respect you for having the strength of your own convictions.


Im not an Obama fan by any stretch of the imagination, but I really don't see how he could screw things up any worse than they already are (except maybe socialized medicine!! :lol
But all in all he seems like a pretty reasonable man.

I find no redeeming qualities in John McCain. I respect the guy for his service and duty to America, but aside from that he has nothing to offer except more of the same old futility.

I think I would even vote for Kucinich at this point...lol...even though he would be the first American president to give a state of the union address while standing on a stack of phone books. Oh well, politics are hell.



posted on Jul, 3 2008 @ 07:02 PM
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reply to post by LLoyd45
 


The credit crisis has already started.

Here are some of the early signs, happening right now:

- Starbucks is CLOSING stores.

- My cable modem broadband signal gets weak at night on a regular basis now.

- I just went to Dominos to get some pizza, and this woman there was telling me how the cops in the neighborhood have started giving people tickets like no tomorrow.

- I get a letter in the mail from Capital One at least once a week telling me that I am already pre-approved for a credit card.

- Airplane flights are going to seriously diminish after September, since the airlines can no longe afford the amount of flights that occur daily now.

- I haven't seen any Fourth Of July Weekend Sale commercials on TV at all.

- People are coming up to me, inside of fast food restaurants, asking for money for food.

- A woman was recently charged with prostitution after agreeing to have sex with a man...for a $100 gasoline coupon.

It's seems like a slow and quiet decent into poverty.





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