to be gay or not to be gay

i believe that people are not born gay. the (natural order of things is male with a female). if it were not then people would do what ever and we would not have been created to procreate. i believe that people are born with a sinful nature and that we are all born with tendencies toward whatever inclination you are. and then we have a choice to be gay, alcoholic or ect. we have a choice to sin. now like i said people are born with the certain affinity to certain sins. it what we do with that choice that makes us gay or not. i can choose to womanize and whore around but i dont. if homosexuality is not wrong why is there a controversy. its just the gay community trying to justify there sin. maybe there needs to be a homosexual anonymous.lol but this is all coming from a person who has 3 gay persons in my family. so are people born gay or not. the above is the compromise. please no haters any opinions welcome. educate me. but i think i just boiled it down.

I know you are going to run into a bunch of people telling you how wrong you are. I however am not one of them. And other than the occasional overly feminine young boy, agree that people have a choice. I believe we can all choose our paths. We can be what we want to be. That is one of the marvelous things about humanity. Therefore I agree. I am just impressed that you have the courage to say such a thing. In this overly sensitive society where politically correct is now extreme, and often morally incorrect, it is very rare to see someone with your honesty speak their mind. Kudos! Good post and good luck!

reply to post by ahornsby

People hang an awful lot on 'choice'. "We didn't choose to be gay!11!!". It seems rather odd. So, 2 questions:


1) If someone did 'choose' to be gay, would they be wrong? In today's free, open-minded, etc, society, why shouldn't someone choose to be gay? Why should we have to justify it with 'lack of choice'?

2) If being gay is wrong, what on earth has choice got to do with anything?! A person can be genetically predisposed to being an alcoholic, does that make excessive drinking acceptable?

[edit on 2-7-2008 by babloyi]

reply to post by ahornsby


I respect your argument but I believe you should have left the "sinning" aspect out of it. It is one thing to say it's not natural, but its an entirely different can of worms to say it is a "sin" to be gay. I don't think religion really has any place in your argument. I know if I was gay and had someone trying to tell me that my way of life was "sinning" then I would get ticked off by that. It's funny how its always the "religious" people that pass judgment off so quickly on others.

Also, why would someone choose to be gay and face the ridicule that is brought to them by society nowadays? My take on it is that they are often born that way. I am not gay so this is only my opinion and not experience.

Hope it helps.

[edit on 7/2/2008 by Mad_Hatter]

Originally posted by Mad_Hatter
reply to post by ahornsby

 

I respect your argument but I believe you should have left the "sinning" aspect out of it. It is one thing to say it's not natural, but its an entirely different can of worms to say it is a "sin" to be gay. I don't think religion really has any place in your argument. I know if I was gay and had someone trying to tell me that my way of life was "sinning" then I would get ticked off by that. It's funny how its always the "religious" people that pass judgment off so quickly on others.

Also, why would someone choose to be gay and face the ridicule that is brought to them by society nowadays? My take on it is that they are often born that way. I am not gay so this is only my opinion and not experience.

Hope it helps.

[edit on 7/2/2008 by Mad_Hatter]

Agreed. I seriously doubt that if being gay(a minority that seems to be hated just because they're 'sinners') was a choice, the gay culture would be as big as it is.

What I don't understand, with the whole 'sinners' argument is, aren't we ALL supposed to be sinners? So gay people just have one (really, relatively minor, considering the other options out there)sin up on the rest of us. What's the big deal? Shouldn't Christians be focusing on the more... dangerous, sins? You know, ones like theft, rape, etc. ?

Originally posted by ahornsby
i believe that people are born with a sinful nature

That is so terribly sad... I'm so sorry you believe that. It makes my heart hurt.

To answer your question, homosexuality is not sinful or wrong. It's natural. Made by God, if you believe in such things.

Homosexuality in Animals - Video Clip
1500 Animal Species Practice Homosexuality

It's controversial because people against it have insisted on making it so. Claiming it's "sinful", "unnatural" and "morally wrong" or a "bad CHOICE".

If sex were ONLY for procreation, why do we enjoy it? If it was for procreation only, we'd only do it to procreate. Ever had sex just for fun? Or is it to make a baby every time?

Is it a choice? Do you remember when you chose to be heterosexual? I don't either.

reply to post by Benevolent Heretic


sex with the same gender is a sin and abomination to God (yawn same rehash about pagan worship=sin same thing it shouldn't be done) that said it doesn't mean hatred towards a sinner.

Secondly your video evidence is irrelevant. see the book of enoch as the fallen angles mated with animals also and ergo this is the reason behind the acts some animals indulge in.

the premise that God created so its right is so stupid its absured. did God create murderers so this isn't a sin? did God create thieves so this is natural and not a sin? are those who worship other Gods not sinning as its natural? those who sleep with multiple partners are not sinners as sex is natural?

The only thing that is natural and True is Gods word!

EVERYONE who willfully sins against Gods will is inviting and is influenced by demonic evil forces as they lack the protection of the almighty.

As Christians we are told not to hate so if we did this would be a sin also we can judge the fruits and actions of people but not their hearts as this for the Lord only as only HE knows. We should teach what Gods will is in things and pray for a sinner, not hate them.

David

to all of you who have replied. you guys have mis quoted me.i am not focusing on homosexuality as a sin. im talking about a choice. and when i said its a sin i believe i said ALL people are born with a sinful nature. we then have the choice to follow up on our urges or not . yes i have sex for pleasure but the way God intended. and sometimes i have sex with myself lol does that make me gay because i held a penis and liked it even though it was my own??? lol but i think we got side tracked from the topic. i do not believe we are born gay. i believe there is a choice. i personally was teased as a child for being feminine and was called gay all the time until i thought maybe i am gay. but at that time i had a choice to make. follow that lifestyle or be straight. no thank you i have my own penis . ill stay straight.

Originally posted by ahornsby
to all of you who have replied. you guys have mis quoted me.i am not focusing on homosexuality as a sin.

I digress. I think your argument was geared towards comparing homosexuality to sin, although maybe unintentionally. Let's see:

i believe that people are not born gay. the (natural order of things is male with a female). if it were not then people would do what ever and we would not have been created to procreate. i believe that people are born with a sinful nature and that we are all born with tendencies toward whatever inclination you are. and then we have a choice to be gay, alcoholic or ect. we have a choice to sin.

Sounds to me like you are comparing the choice of alcoholism and being gay to sinning.

now like i said people are born with the certain affinity to certain sins. it what we do with that choice that makes us gay or not.

I interpret that as you saying people are born with sinful nature and they can choose to be gay and keep sinning or not be gay and not sin.

i can choose to womanize and whore around but i dont. if homosexuality is not wrong why is there a controversy. its just the gay community trying to justify there sin.

That sounds pretty clear cut to me that you are saying being gay is a sin.

I am not trying to down you or anything, just pointing out that you did indeed say that homosexuality is a sin and no one is misquoting you.
I respect your argument and opinion though, like I said.

Just my two cents here, but I've had gay friends, and not one of them has ever chosen to be gay. With the amount of pain and misery that society causes homosexuals, do you really think anyone would actually want to choose that? Between the hate crimes, civil rights issues, societal pressures, and other associated problems with being gay, thinking that it is a choice is absurd. The only way that it could even begin to seem like a choice would be if every single person who has ever been or ever will be a homosexual has also been an emotional masochist. I find that rather hard to swallow. As for the "sin" of being gay et. al., you'll pardon me if I don't even go there. I've found that those who believe that sort of thing simply won't change their minds on the subject, so I won't even wasie my time trying.

To the OP and others like minded: People are what they are and people everywhere need to learn tolerance and respect for others of ALL kinds. You all talk about gay people like they are the new 'n-word's.

The media talks about Mexicans like they are the same and there is HATE all over the planet. There is so much hate. It takes a lot of energy for all that hating.

Why does society even today in 2008 need to have a race of peoples or a religious group of peoples or people of a different sexual preference, etc.......why do people, and society in general, still need to have a group they can treat like 'n-word's?

Holocausts teach you people nothing.
One in ten people are gay. Should they be massacred?

Originally posted by ahornsby
i believe that people are not born gay.

Doesn't matter what you or I believe. It's what the evidence shows, and evidence shows that some people are indeed born homosexual.

People have this crazy notion sometimes that what they believe has any bearing on the facts...

Originally posted by ahornsby
i personally was teased as a child for being feminine and was called gay all the time until i thought maybe i am gay. but at that time i had a choice to make. follow that lifestyle or be straight.

I could be wrong, but I wonder if you might be trying to convince yourself that it's a "choice" because some people don't go with what they naturally feel, but fight against their own true nature and "choose" to be straight, instead... So, later, they try to justify the "choice" they made to live their life as though they're straight...

It sounds very much to me as though this is a lot more personal than a general discussion about those gay people. As I said, I could be wrong.

Look, if a person is gay and chooses to deny it and live their life as a straight person, yes, that's a choice. But that doesn't mean they're straight. They're just living a lie. BUT, being gay in the first place, that's not a choice and not something that can be changed. Yes, a gay man can deny it, grow up and only date women, live his life as a "straight" person. Get married, have a family and so on, but the man inside is STILL gay. That's why you see men at 45 breaking up their family and getting a divorce because they just can't stand living a lie anymore.

If you or anyone has ever felt that they had to "choose" not to be gay, I would ask that person to be really honest with themselves and get in touch with some people who can help them out.

Advocates for Youth
Reachout
OutProud

Like I said in my first post. I never made a choice to be straight. If someone feels that they "chose" to be either straight OR gay, I would say they're probably not being honest with themselves.

But please know that being gay is not a sin. The bible has been through so many translations that it no longer says what the original writers meant it to say. There were gay relationships in the bible.

The Bible and Homosexuality

Take care...

Edited to add a little more.

[edit on 3-7-2008 by Benevolent Heretic]

i dont get it and i never will, i think its just a perversion of morality but hey if what the bible says about genesis is true then we've at least been comitting incest since the dawn of mankind what with everyone being brothers and sisters right.

Gay guys make me feel unconfortable and nto because i'm against them, simply becuase they invoke the same feeling i would get from smelling rotten eggs PUN intended

what evidence is this?

can you supply a link?

external quote

Most gays become that way, because an older person initiates them into it—and they decide they like it. Most admit that their first partner was an older gay (I. Bieber, et. al., Homosexuality: A Psychoanalytic Study, 1962).

david

sorry this may be to ld for some so here is another external quote

What causes Homosexuality/Heterosexuality/Bisexuality?
No one knows what causes heterosexuality, homosexuality, or bisexuality. Homosexuality was once thought to be the result of troubled family dynamics or faulty psychological development. Those assumptions are now understood to have been based on misinformation and prejudice. Currently there is a renewed interest in searching for biological etiologies for homosexuality. However, to date there are no replicated scientific studies supporting any specific biological etiology for homosexuality. Similarly, no specific psychosocial or family dynamic cause for homosexuality has been identified, including histories of childhood sexual abuse. Sexual abuse does not appear to be more prevalent in children who grow up to identify as gay, lesbian, or bisexual, than in children who identify as heterosexual.

American Psychiatric Association, 1400 K St. NW, Washington, DC 20005
(Revised May, 2000)


[edit on 3/7/2008 by drevill]

Originally posted by drevill
what evidence is this?

can you supply a link?

Brain Scans Different on Gays

Gay men and heterosexual women had halves of a similar size, while the right side was bigger in lesbian women and heterosexual men.

A UK scientist said this was evidence sexual orientation was set in the womb.
...
"As far as I'm concerned there is no argument any more - if you are gay, you are born gay," he said.

Most gays become that way, because an older person initiates them into it—and they decide they like it. Most admit that their first partner was an older gay (I. Bieber, et. al., Homosexuality: A Psychoanalytic Study, 1962).

1962?

Here's another quote from your source

In 1980, a friend told me that her brother was a homosexual, and that he really wanted to escape it. I told her the strange things homosexuals did revealed it was devil-possession, and to tell her son to plead with God and tell the demon to leave.

She went home and phoned her brother. Alone, in a distant city, he got down on his knees and pled with God for help, meant it,—and then commanded the devil to leave.

He said that he felt something coming out through the top of his head, and as it was departing, said in a deep man’s voice, “My name is Queer!”

Also, on the author of the book from which you sourced:

Irving Bieber

Homosexuality: A Psychoanalytic Study of Male Homosexuals has been disavowed by some for defining homosexuality as an illness, and for examining homosexuals already in analytic treatment as opposed to non-patient heterosexuals. It has been suggested that the study informed stereotypes later promulgated by the media.

More on Bieber

He believed it was an illness that could be treated or prevented through psychotherapy -- a view that has since been discredited.
...
Dr. Judd Marmor, who is a psychiatrist and professor at the University of California at Los Angeles and who was a classmate and colleague of Dr. Bieber's, said yesterday: "It was one of Dr. Bieber's characteristics that he found it very hard to admit his mistakes.

"I think he made only one major error -- his insistence that homosexuality was an illness," Dr. Marmor said

[edit on 3-7-2008 by Benevolent Heretic]

Originally posted by ahornsby
i believe that people are not born gay.

And you are entitled to believe so. However I respectfully disagree. My best friend is Gay, and with all the flack he's received from family members, and some of his old "friends", I DON'T believe it was a choice for him. Coming out was one of the hardest things he's ever done, It took him 4 years to fully accept it.

i believe that people are born with a sinful nature and that we are all born with tendencies toward whatever inclination you are. and then we have a choice to be gay, alcoholic or ect. we have a choice to sin.

The idea of "SIN" is a religious belief, so are we dragging religion into this discussion? If you are going to use Science as a base for an argument (that it is our natural instinct to pro-create and for men to be with women, and women to be with men) then you have to leave religion out of it.

For example: You said that the Natural Order of things is Male with Female. You also said we have a choice to sin. Insinuating that Homosexuality is a Sin, based on a Scientific principal? What? No. Perhaps you need to change your wording so it doesn't look as though you are combining Science and Religion.

if homosexuality is not wrong why is there a controversy. its just the gay community trying to justify there sin.

There is Controversy because people don't like, what they don't understand. Some people are Narrow-minded, and have been brought up to shun everything that isn't the same as them. Its sad really, that even now (as EB was saying) in 2008, people are still unaccepting of each other.

I'm sorry, but what is this statement about "The Gay community trying to Justify their sin?" Justify it to who? It's no body's darn business! It really doesn't concern anyone else what I do in my bedroom. So why does it matter what homosexual couples do? It doesn't.

maybe there needs to be a homosexual anonymous.

WHAT? Anonomous? What was the point of this statement? I'm sorry, but are you suggesting we should ask them to please step BACK INTO their closets? Perhaps you should express your opinions on this "idea" of an "anonomous group", to your Family; your 3 gay Family members. I'm sure they would LOVE your input.

- Carrot

Originally posted by ahornsby
i believe that people are not born gay. the (natural order of things is male with a female). if it were not then people would do what ever and we would not have been created to procreate.

If you are going to use nature as your argument you cannot ignore homosexuality being natural in the animal kingdom.

i believe that people are born with a sinful nature and that we are all born with tendencies toward whatever inclination you are. and then we have a choice to be gay, alcoholic or ect. we have a choice to sin.

You are contracticting yourself. The concept of "sin" has to be taught to people.. yet people can be homosexual without knowing it is considered to be a sin by some. hell they don't even have to even know the concept of homosexuality to be able to be attracted to the same sex.

If it were "naturally" a sin people would insitinctively know that yet you had to tell us its a sin.

if homosexuality is not wrong why is there a controversy. its just the gay community trying to justify there sin.

No. It is the homophobic community trying to insist it is a sin when it's just a harmless sexual orientation. It only becomes a sin when people start pointing a finger crying "sinner!"

Homosexuality is natural. If you think it shouldn't be take it up with the guy who supposedly created nature..

i think it is pretty offensive.

People don't choose to be gay? All homosexual people are born that way? Why is there so much misinformation being passed around as fact? Never heard of the Kinsey scale? Or the Klien Sexual Orientation Grid? Dependant on certain factors, people can 'naturally feel' whatever they want to naturally feel.

As I said before, if one is going to take the position that homosexuality is wrong (not what I am debating here), then genetics has absolutely nothing to do with it, in the same way that (as the example was given previously) it's not okay for a person to get drunk just because they have a genetic tendency towards alcoholism.