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Obama's Patriotism Speech

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posted on Jul, 7 2008 @ 08:11 AM
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People seem to be substituting "patriotism" for "nationalism".


na·tion·al·ism –noun

excessive patriotism; chauvinism.

the desire for national advancement or independence.

the policy or doctrine of asserting the interests of one's own nation, viewed as separate from the interests of other nations or the common interests of all nations.

pa·tri·ot·ism –noun

devoted love, support, and defense of one's country; national loyalty.


I think any American agrees that a major part of the unique freedom this country enjoys is the freedom to disagree with the Government. Saying "I've always been proud of my country and always will" is not patriotism it is nationalism and akin to the attitude that allows despots to seize and hold power. Of course there are moments when you're not proud of your country. If you agreed with everything your Government did, you'd have to be schizophrenic. There used to be a saying back when I was a kid that every true patriot understood... "I may disagree with what you're saying, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it." What happened to that?

I think Obama is very proud of his country, but I also think he's ashamed of some of the things the Government has decided to stand for in recent years, and indeed some of the things this country has done in the past. That's not only a legitimate opinion, it's the absolutely right opinion for someone running a campaign to change the course of the nation. The flag lapel pin thing is a ridiculous. At the time he said "I don't wear that pin" it was a patriotic statement to not wear it. At that moment after 9/11 politicians were using patriotism as a wedge issue and as a hammer to put legislation through like the fascist "Patriot Act". Obama took a stand then to say he didn't think wearing a piece of jewelry made one a patriot, but rather your actions and the way you treat other American Citizens define your patriotism. Was he wrong?




posted on Jul, 7 2008 @ 08:39 AM
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Originally posted by SKMDC1
People seem to be substituting "patriotism" for "nationalism".


na·tion·al·ism –noun

excessive patriotism; chauvinism.

the desire for national advancement or independence.

the policy or doctrine of asserting the interests of one's own nation, viewed as separate from the interests of other nations or the common interests of all nations.

pa·tri·ot·ism –noun

devoted love, support, and defense of one's country; national loyalty.
So, what's wrong with placing our country's interests above that of others? I'm American, and have no interests in Africa, South America, or the Middle East. Let their governments and their people resolve their own problems. We have more than enough poverty, homelessness, hunger, and crime of our own to deal with. Americans should come first and foremost. We're not the Red Cross to the World.


I think Obama is very proud of his country, but I also think he's ashamed of some of the things the Government has decided to stand for in recent years, and indeed some of the things this country has done in the past. That's not only a legitimate opinion, it's the absolutely right opinion for someone running a campaign to change the course of the nation.
I'm sure he is proud of his country, but I'm not sure which country that might be personally. Is it America, Africa, or Indonesia?


The flag lapel pin thing is a ridiculous. At the time he said "I don't wear that pin" it was a patriotic statement to not wear it. At that moment after 9/11 politicians were using patriotism as a wedge issue and as a hammer to put legislation through like the fascist "Patriot Act". Obama took a stand then to say he didn't think wearing a piece of jewelry made one a patriot, but rather your actions and the way you treat other American Citizens define your patriotism. Was he wrong?
Wearing the lapel pin is a symbolic gesture of support and respect for your country. His initial refusal to wear it sppke volumes to me about his patriotism. Once he was called on his disdain for it wearing it in the media, he immediately put it back on. Flip-flop.. his typical response to public opinion going against him.



posted on Jul, 7 2008 @ 09:06 AM
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Originally posted by LLoyd45
So, what's wrong with placing our country's interests above that of others? I'm American, and have no interests in Africa, South America, or the Middle East. Let their governments and their people resolve their own problems. We have more than enough poverty, homelessness, hunger, and crime of our own to deal with. Americans should come first and foremost. We're not the Red Cross to the World.


Agreed! Seems like we should stop poking our nose in around the world, then... you know, invading sovereign nations, overthrowing the leaders of countries we don't like, sending bazillions of $$$ to 'allies', that may or may not actually be such. Stuff like that. If we weren't pissing our resources away at truly impressive rates (Iraq alone: ~$5000 / second), we'd be in a lot better shape to deal with our own poverty, homelessness, etc, as you point out.




Wearing the lapel pin is a symbolic gesture of support and respect for your country. His initial refusal to wear it sppke volumes to me about his patriotism. Once he was called on his disdain for it wearing it in the media, he immediately put it back on. Flip-flop.. his typical response to public opinion going against him.


I'm not a big fan of his change in behavior on this, either. Whether anyone agreed with it or not, his reasons for not wearing it every freaking where were sound.

But given the hysteria whipped up over this particular bit of triviana, I can understand his change in behavior, even if I disagree with it.



posted on Jul, 7 2008 @ 10:18 AM
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Originally posted by LLoyd45

So, what's wrong with placing our country's interests above that of others? I'm American, and have no interests in Africa, South America, or the Middle East. Let their governments and their people resolve their own problems. We have more than enough poverty, homelessness, hunger, and crime of our own to deal with. Americans should come first and foremost. We're not the Red Cross to the World.


I never said our interests should be placed *below* others. The US Gov't has a mandate to serve the US people first and foremost, I'm not arguing that. But to ignore the fact that actions our Gov't takes effects the world is being willfully blind. Loving your country doesn't mean despising all others. When a global pandemic erupts from Africa and makes the leap to America, you'll care about Africa THEN. When Hugo Chavez gets a nuke and with the silent approval of others in his region fires a missle on Dallas. You'll care about South America THEN. When 19 terrorists kill 3000 Americans in one hour, you cared about the Middle East THEN. Taking care of the US and being respectful and responsible in the Global Community isn't mutually exclusive.



Originally posted by LLoyd45I'm sure he is proud of his country, but I'm not sure which country that might be personally. Is it America, Africa, or Indonesia?


He was born in Hawaii, raised by Kansans, went to college in Massachusetts and was a civil servant in Illinois. My first grade kid could answer your question. If you actually think he's really African or Indonesian, then you should put on a tin foil hat and go join the Reptile Shape Shifter thread.


Originally posted by LLoyd45Wearing the lapel pin is a symbolic gesture of support and respect for your country. His initial refusal to wear it sppke volumes to me about his patriotism. Once he was called on his disdain for it wearing it in the media, he immediately put it back on. Flip-flop.. his typical response to public opinion going against him.


With respect, you're completely wrong. Wearing a lapel pin is in no way "a symbolic gesture of support and respect for your country". It's a symbol, sure, but it's not a "gesture" it's not an "action".. it's an "accessory." A symbolic gesture of support and respect for your country would be working a soup line in a homeless shelter on Thanksgiving day, or volunteering to register people to vote, or taking a stand you know is the right thing even if the masses disagree with you. Those are gestures, a lapel pin is nothing in comparison.

Secondly, he started wearing the lapel pin again after a mother of an Iraq War vet gave him one and asked him to wear it for her son, much like McCain and the dogtags a mother gave him. If Obama was gonna "flip flop" on something as meaningless as a lapel pin, wouldn't he have done it months ago when people started going bitchcakes over it?



posted on Jul, 7 2008 @ 01:39 PM
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Originally posted by SKMDC1
I never said our interests should be placed *below* others. The US Gov't has a mandate to serve the US people first and foremost, I'm not arguing that. But to ignore the fact that actions our Gov't takes effects the world is being willfully blind. Loving your country doesn't mean despising all others. When a global pandemic erupts from Africa and makes the leap to America, you'll care about Africa THEN. When Hugo Chavez gets a nuke and with the silent approval of others in his region fires a missle on Dallas. You'll care about South America THEN. When 19 terrorists kill 3000 Americans in one hour, you cared about the Middle East THEN. Taking care of the US and being respectful and responsible in the Global Community isn't mutually exclusive.
I didn't say despise all other countries, I said we should leave them to their own affairs, and tend to our own. We shouldn't be the Welfare Office to the World. If we tightened up our immigration policies, we'd have no need to worry about pandemics in Africa spreading here, If we left Hugo alone and quit sponsoring coups against him, I doubt he'd have any reason to want to Nuke us, and if we had stayed out of the Middle East, and quit trying to shove Democracy down everyone's throats, terrorist wouldn't have had reason to attack us.




He was born in Hawaii, raised by Kansans, went to college in Massachusetts and was a civil servant in Illinois. My first grade kid could answer your question. If you actually think he's really African or Indonesian, then you should put on a tin foil hat and go join the Reptile Shape Shifter thread.
I like how you left out his early upbringing in Indonesia, and the fact his father was Kenyan.

Let's see.. his father was from Kenya which makes him Kenyan under their laws, His adopted father was Indonesian which gave Barack Solotero Indonesian citizenship via his adopted father, he also has lived in the states. So which country is it he loves again?


With respect, you're completely wrong. Wearing a lapel pin is in no way "a symbolic gesture of support and respect for your country". It's a symbol, sure, but it's not a "gesture" it's not an "action".. it's an "accessory."
If I wanted to be President of a country, I think it would be a small concession on my part to wear a lapel pin as a symbol or act of respect for said country. Don't you?


ges·ture (jschr)
n.
1. A motion of the limbs or body made to express or help express thought or to emphasize speech.
2. The act of moving the limbs or body as an expression of thought or emphasis.
3. An act or a remark made as a formality or as a sign of intention or attitude: sent flowers as a gesture of sympathy.



A symbolic gesture of support and respect for your country would be working a soup line in a homeless shelter on Thanksgiving day, or volunteering to register people to vote, or taking a stand you know is the right thing even if the masses disagree with you. Those are gestures, a lapel pin is nothing in comparison.
Those are all acts too.


Secondly, he started wearing the lapel pin again after a mother of an Iraq War vet gave him one and asked him to wear it for her son, much like McCain and the dogtags a mother gave him. If Obama was gonna "flip flop" on something as meaningless as a lapel pin, wouldn't he have done it months ago when people started going bitchcakes over it?
That's a heart-wrenching story, but he started wearing the lapel pin again when he was called on his lack of patriotism in the news and on the net. Flip-flop...



posted on Jul, 7 2008 @ 06:45 PM
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Originally posted by LLoyd45
Let's see.. his father was from Kenya which makes him Kenyan under their laws,


Really? What is your source on this? Besides, even if that were true, is it Kenyan law we're concerned about here? In the US? The Kenyan constitution? Is Obama running for president of Kenya? No. None of that matters. Even IF it were true. Of which I have seen NO evidence.



His adopted father was Indonesian which gave Barack Solotero Indonesian citizenship via his adopted father,


Source? Is it Indonesian law that if an Indonesian citizen adopts a child, he automatically gains citizenship? WAS Barack Obama adopted by his step father? Source?

There are so many holes here it's not funny!

Lloyd, you hear all these rumors on the Internets and take them as FACT and then bring them here as if they mean something. They don't. Unless you can provide proof to the contrary, Obama is NOT a citizen of Kenya OR Indonesia and it makes no difference to US law even if he were. He is a citizen of the US and always has been.



posted on Jul, 7 2008 @ 07:03 PM
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reply to post by Benevolent Heretic
 


BH,

You have no interests in facts, you're just obsessed with Barack Obama. No possible number of cited sources would ever satisfy you, so I'm not wasting my time trying to. You have a computer, do your own research if you doubt me.


[edit on 7/7/08 by LLoyd45]



posted on Jul, 7 2008 @ 08:29 PM
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Michael Dukakis was a nominee for President. His parents were Greek.

Barry Goldwater wasn't even born in the US, he was born in the Arizona Territory in 1909 before it was a state.

George Romney (Father of Mitt) was born in Chihuahua, Mexico because his grandparents actually fled the US in order to practice polygamy.

And of course John McCain was born in Panama.

Does anyone question whether they are Americans? In truth Americans come in all flavors and from all possible paths. It's one of the things that makes this country great. The melting pot of the world.

Obama was born in Hawaii and that's the end of the story as far as if he's an American or not. Period.



posted on Jul, 7 2008 @ 10:28 PM
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Originally posted by LLoyd45
Let's see.. his father was from Kenya which makes him Kenyan under their laws,


No. That is incorrect. According to the Kenyan Constitution, his father would have to have applied for Kenyan citizenship for Barack.



Provided that a person who has not attained the age of twenty-one years (other than a woman who is or has been married) may not himself make an application under this subsection, but an application may be made on his behalf by his parent or guardian.


I can find NO evidence that Barack's father ever applied for Kenyan citizenship for Obama.

Can you?


Originally posted by LLoyd45
His adopted father was Indonesian which gave Barack Solotero Indonesian citizenship via his adopted father,


I can find ONE place that claims Obama was actually adopted by Soetoro. freerepublic.com. They don't have a source, either.
And wouldn't Barack's real father have had to sign off to let another man adopt his child?

These are exceptional claims you're making that require exceptional evidence. Or at least a source. If you want people to think you're credible at all, you will provide SOME indication of evidence to support these outlandish claims.



posted on Jul, 8 2008 @ 07:44 AM
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Originally posted by LLoyd45
BH,

You have no interests in facts,


Quite the contrary. I am challenging you to present the facts and SOMETHING to back them up. But all you have shown is some YouTube video of some unknown guy claiming that it's so. That is not credible evidence.



you're just obsessed with Barack Obama.


I'm obsessed??? I'm sorry, but I think it is YOU who are obsessed with making him out to be some sort of turncoat or non-citizen, ineligible for the presidency.

If you were interested in the FACTS, I would think you would present them.



No possible number of cited sources would ever satisfy you,


That's absolutely not true. ONE real, credible source is all I ask. Yet you have NOT ONE. (some girl on the discussion board on freerepublic is not a credible source.)



You have a computer, do your own research if you doubt me.


I have not only done my research, members of my family call me the "Internet Queen" for my abilities to find things on the Internet. I have read the Kenyan Constitution section on citizenship. I have Googled Barack Obama's biography and searched for the possibility of his adoption by his stepfather, Lolo Soetoro. Nothing.

I have proven several times that a person born in Hawaii in 1961 is a natural-born citizen and meets the requirements to become this country's president, and still... you bring this fantasy to the table.

Oh, by the way, a person in Kenya (who was not born there) can have dual citizenship until they're 21. Then they have to renounce any other citizenship AND reside in Kenya to remain a citizen of Kenya. So EVEN IF, by the wildest stretch of the imagination, Obama was a citizen of Kenya at one point, he gave it up at age 21 by not living there AND renouncing his US citizenship. Just FYI. Not that it applies here.

Come on, Lloyd. Let's see some facts. Let's get to the bottom of this and get it out in the open once and for all. What do you say?



posted on Jul, 8 2008 @ 07:58 AM
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Great response BH. I did a quick tour around the tubes myself, but could only find people commenting on the falsehood that Obama was a citizen of Kenya. Never went so far as reading the Kenyan constitution. Great work!



posted on Jul, 8 2008 @ 08:17 AM
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Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
Quite the contrary. I am challenging you to present the facts and SOMETHING to back them up. But all you have shown is some YouTube video of some unknown guy claiming that it's so. That is not credible evidence.
And that's all I intend to show BH. There's no point in debating with someone who has their mind already made up. I don't indulge in Lose-Lose scenarios..


I'm obsessed??? I'm sorry, but I think it is YOU who are obsessed with making him out to be some sort of turncoat or non-citizen, ineligible for the presidency.
I would call a person with 20+ posts on one person obsessed. Maybe you don't see it that way, but most rational people would.


If you were interested in the FACTS, I would think you would present them.
It wouldn't matter if I produced his ever elusive typical white person Grandma, you'd then claim she had an agenda too!


That's absolutely not true. ONE real, credible source is all I ask. Yet you have NOT ONE. (some girl on the discussion board on freerepublic is not a credible source.)
You sound like Obama with your qualifiers like "One real, credible source". With you being the judge I assume on what constitutes real and credible.. No Thanks



I have not only done my research, members of my family call me the "Internet Queen" for my abilities to find things on the Internet. I have read the Kenyan Constitution section on citizenship. I have Googled Barack Obama's biography and searched for the possibility of his adoption by his stepfather, Lolo Soetoro. Nothing.
Look harder is my only suggestion to you. I'm tired of providing links that you fail to read or offhandedly discount.


I have proven several times that a person born in Hawaii in 1961 is a natural-born citizen and meets the requirements to become this country's president, and still... you bring this fantasy to the table.
That's all true, provided the person was in fact born in Hawaii. When Barack Obama shows the American public a REAL, verifiable birth certificate, I'll retract my comments.


Oh, by the way, a person in Kenya (who was not born there) can have dual citizenship until they're 21. Then they have to renounce any other citizenship AND reside in Kenya to remain a citizen of Kenya. So EVEN IF, by the wildest stretch of the imagination, Obama was a citizen of Kenya at one point, he gave it up at age 21 by not living there AND renouncing his US citizenship. Just FYI. Not that it applies here.
That's all very interesting, but I already knew it. Thanks anyway for doing a little of your own research though.

Come on, Lloyd. Let's see some facts. Let's get to the bottom of this and get it out in the open once and for all. What do you say? I say.. No Thanks. I've got better things to do with my time than argue with a brick wall. No offense meant, but that's how it seems to me.



posted on Jul, 8 2008 @ 09:39 AM
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Looks like game, set and match to Benevolent Heretic...


The same unsubstantiated and debunked claims keep being made, and are repeatedly squashed.

The rule of extraordinary evidence applies here.

For instance, the claim has been made (ad nauseum) that Obama is not eligble to be President, in spite of the evident fact that his eligibility has been confirmed, or he would not be the (presumptive) nominee.

In these circumstances, the claim that Obama is not eligible is an extraordinary claim. To be considered for serious discussion, this claim must be supported by extraordinary evidence.

And yet, the 'evidence' produced to support this claim is tenuous at best.

Case closed.

Well done, BH!



posted on Jul, 8 2008 @ 10:01 AM
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Llyod

can you please enlighten us to this:

If he is a Kenyan citizen - what difference does it make?



Second request of enlightenment


Can you please tell me when these types of childish attacks will end? (not that its you, just anti-obama in general)

Lets see here:


  • He's too black
  • He's not black enough
  • He's too Christian
  • No No Wait! He's muslim
  • Nope, he's not muslim enough
  • He's not Christian enough (because of his 'muslim background')
  • He's not a U.S. Citizen
  • Oh wait, yes he is. He has dual citizenship!
  • He has dual citizenship so his loyalties are divided.
  • A vote for Obama is a vote for Africa !!!



Now, while we disagree quite frequently, Llyod, i still consider you to be a man of common sense, and dont often see you take in such discussions equivalent to "Obama is a poopy head"

So.....can you please enlighten us on these two issues?

[edit on 7/8/2008 by Andrew E. Wiggin]



posted on Jul, 8 2008 @ 11:30 AM
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reply to post by Andrew E. Wiggin
 


Llyod

can you please enlighten us to this:

If he is a Kenyan citizen - what difference does it make?
If he is indeed Kenyan, I think that would constitute a conflict of interest on his behalf. You cannot serve two masters, So which country would his loyalties lie with? His Father's Homeland or America?

I also dislike the fact that he's intent upon sending millions of dollars of US taxpayer money to Africa. We're not the Welfare Office to the World as some seem to think. We have enough poor, homeless, hungry, and sick people of our own care for. Charity should start at home, not abroad.

To date he's sponsored three bills totalling a whopping $85 million dollars for African aid. Wouldn't that money be better spent rebuilding our own infrastructure, or improving the quality of life for American citizens?


Second request of enlightenment

Can you please tell me when these types of childish attacks will end? (not that its you, just anti-obama in general)


I really couldn't tell you Andrew.. I didn't author every thread on ATS concerning Barack Obama. That would be a question better posed to the original posters, not me. My best guess though, is when we withdraws from the campaign, but then again I'm not psychic.


Now, while we disagree quite frequently, Llyod, i still consider you to be a man of common sense, and dont often see you take in such discussions equivalent to "Obama is a poopy head"
No, I've never participated in any of the "Obama is a poopy head" threads, and most likely won't. I try to keep my debates somewhat cordial and non-inflammatory until someone p-sses me off.

As far as I'm concerned, you can declare whoever you like as the winner of this verbal fencing match. but in reality, no one here know the truth about anything beyond a shadow of a doubt. Only time will tell.





[edit on 7/8/08 by LLoyd45]



posted on Jul, 8 2008 @ 11:40 AM
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Originally posted by LLoyd45
As far as I'm concerned, you can declare whoever you like as the winner of this verbal fencing match. but in reality, no one here know the truth about anything beyond a shadow of a doubt. Only time will tell.


On that we agree to the hilt!


We can talk and talk here and we all may be totally wrong... it may be that Obama really is an alien from outer space... and McCain is his love child...


However, based purely on public, Internet available documentation, I still have to come down on the side of BH.



posted on Jul, 9 2008 @ 06:44 AM
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Originally posted by Open_Minded Skeptic
Looks like game, set and match to Benevolent Heretic...

Well done, BH!


Such marital bliss. Benevolent Heretic and Open_Minded Skeptic .... Looks like we all know what you guys talk about at the breakfast table. Politics. Well .. and the puppy dogs too I'm sure.


Originally posted by Andrew E. Wiggin
If he is a Kenyan citizen - what difference does it make?

Many people in this country would see ANY person with a dual citizenship (or a tri-citizenship), being in a powerful position as POTUS, as having a potential conflict of interest. When we are talking about being President of the United States, the ONLY concern you should have is with what is best for America. THAT is his/her job. Having dual citizenship could easily be a distraction to putting America in the #1 spot.

It's not unreasonable for people to be weary about it.



posted on Jul, 9 2008 @ 10:24 AM
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reply to post by LLoyd45
 


You seem to have moved the goal-posts. Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't the question whether Obama held "dual-citizenship"? BH completely debunked that in multiple ways. Now it seems you've fallen back to "false birth certificate" and claiming he's not a citizen of the US at ALL. The "dual citizenship" thing was barely worth debate since it's an interesting question of whether dual citizenship has any legal ramifications for someone running for President. However, the idea that the birth certificate is a fake and that Obama wasn't born in Hawaii has also been thoroughly debunked by the campaign producing his freaking birth certificate. The "fake birth certificate" business has become is patently tin-foil-hatty, right up there with Reptile shapeshifters, and an idea much more suited for the "Skunkworks" forum.



posted on Jul, 9 2008 @ 10:28 AM
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Originally posted by SKMDC1]At that moment after 9/11 politicians were using patriotism as a wedge issue and as a hammer to put legislation through like the fascist "Patriot Act". Obama took a stand then to say he didn't think wearing a piece of jewelry made one a patriot, but rather your actions and the way you treat other American Citizens define your patriotism. Was he wrong?


I see this all the time and I categorically dismiss it. The way I remember it is democrats were pissed off little children after the 2001 election. 9/11 happens and the whole country is patriotic for a little while. Soon after though, America begins to split as democrats demonize Bush and the Republicans. Always painting our patriotism as fake or warmongering. All the while complaining that they are patriots too and that Republicans are trying to paint them otherwise. The fact is Democrats paint themselves that way. They do it by calling Marines cold blooded killers and repeating talking points of our enemies.



posted on Jul, 9 2008 @ 10:39 AM
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Originally posted by Dronetek
The fact is Democrats paint themselves that way. They do it by calling Marines cold blooded killers and repeating talking points of our enemies.



Actually, to point the utter ignorance of your otherwise ignorant post....

only dumb ass movie stars and film makers say that kind of crap.

To group together all supporters of a democratic candidate and say "you hate our country" is about the silliest thing anyone has said thus far on these boards.


The move "redacted" is the biggest waste of time i've ever heard of, and i didnt waste my time watching it.


Be careful who you group with who, because it'll come back and bite you in the ass faster than you realize.



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