Prove you're alive (aka my brain is exploding)

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posted on Jul, 1 2008 @ 10:42 AM
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I was thinking about this while I was sleeping last night - it could have been in a dream or some time in the middle of the night.

The Universe is governed by a certain set of laws and forces, thermodynamics, strong and weak nuclear force, electromagnetism etc..

These laws are seen in action by the way they effect matter. Matter being in this case, the sub-atomic theoretical particles. These sub-atomic particles aren't considered to be alive, they are just minute but significant forms of energy.

This energy isn't alive.

Now, the way these little bits of energy move about and the behavior they exhibit is dependent on the laws of the universe. They come together to form atoms which in turn form the Elements and Molecules.

So far, nothing is alive yet, right?

We have covered huge milestones in the evolution of the Universe to this point when talking about Elements and Molecules. While not "alive" they certainly exist and they are the way they are because of the laws of the Universe.

So if I were to throw a rubber ball in to the air, it would hang for a moment and then come crashing down back to Earth. There is no meaning or reason for the ball to have come crashing down, it only did because of gravity - the natural law that governs the space which the ball exists.


Now we have these molecules that react to one another, something we call chemical reactions. They react in different ways causing explosions, heat and other odd things - not because of any reason or intent or meaning but rather because of their atomic structure.

Because of the structure that two different molecules/elements/particles have, they will react in a certain way.

When life first arose on Earth, many think it was the result of molecules reacting to one another.

Now we have Blue-Green algae, and other simple bacteria. These are just new kinds of Molecules, more complex and more sophisticated but nonetheless, still not "alive".

Then we go from bacteria to mollusks, fish, reptiles, birds, apes, humans etc.. all of which are based off of the same principals that causes the molecules to join and form something new, no reason, no meaning, just a reaction to each other...


Ultimately, we're just atoms. Collections of little bits of energy.

But are we really alive? we're a collection of cells and energy that came together in this current form for no other reason than causality.


Now I can actually sit here and consider this, and calculate it in my mind, does that mean I am alive? What is the point at which inorganic non-living molecules become life?

What if there is no design, no intent and no meaning? Is it possible? Are we a fluke of chaos and causality?

Finally, what are the chances that an altogether indifferent, indiscriminate and inorganic Universe could eventually have its particles of energy eventually come together under certain conditions to form a new thing (humans) made up entirely of the raw materials of said universe, and be unique in its ability to think objectively, abstractly and creatively about the very thing of which it is made?


My head hurts.




posted on Jul, 1 2008 @ 10:50 AM
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I am self-aware, therefore I'm alive. I was going to use the "sentience" thing, but looking at some of my posts, I think that could be successfully argued.



posted on Jul, 1 2008 @ 10:50 AM
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Hello mrk2012,

Search on goolge video for Nassim Haramein a swiss researcher that has/will rewritten all the laws of the universe.

There should be 2 x a 4 hours presentation.

It's all about geometry.

it will become clear.

He believes that every scale has it's own boundry galaxy,suns,planets,human,cell,molecules,atoms,proton,electron,etc.
And were all black holes!
Everyone of us is a singularity!
We live on the inside of a huge black hole called the universe.



posted on Jul, 1 2008 @ 10:53 AM
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Originally posted by mrk2012

But are we really alive? we're a collection of cells and energy that came together in this current form for no other reason than causality.



In this dimension, we are alive.




Originally posted by PPLwakeUP

And were all black holes!
Everyone of us is a singularity!
We live on the inside of a huge black hole called the universe.


Well, there we have it - the true signifance of what i've been spouting off as a chaotic universe.

I'm glad someone's figured it out.

[edit on 1-7-2008 by Anti-Tyrant]



posted on Jul, 1 2008 @ 10:54 AM
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Yes. "Cogito ergo sum" pretty much nails it. Self awareness is the key. I exist simply because I exist. My continued existence does not require any understanding of the process. Maybe I'm a character in somebody elses dream. Maybe I'm a hiccup in the way physics works. Regardless of the endless stream of potential theories, when it's all said and done, I am here.

It works for me.



posted on Jul, 1 2008 @ 11:03 AM
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Very interesting replies, PPLWakeUp, I'll definately check that out!

Hefficide, I'm say more along the lines of are you Alive, not so much do you exist. Sure, I can agree that we exist in space and time, that much is fine. But rather, are we "alive"?



posted on Jul, 1 2008 @ 11:21 AM
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Define 'alive'.

On a physical plane, we are simply matter that reacts to stimuli. The process is far from unknown in science: all matter reacts to stimuli, such as when a ball is kicked, it reacts by changing position. The ball is not alive, that is, it does not eat, grow, reproduce.

An amoeba doubtful has self-awareness, but it is alive. It consumes food, it grows, and it reproduces.

A weed does not exhibit signs of self-awareness, but it grows (man, oh, man does it grow!), consumes nutrients form the soil, and reproduces (man, oh, man does it reproduce!). It is alive.

Try this definition of 'alive' on for size: An organized arrangement of matter is alive if it is self-sustaining in its environment and able to expand itself through reproduction.

Sentience: An arrangement of matter is sentient if it can make decisions based on self-obtained desires to manipulate itself and/or its environment.

Can we agree on these definitions?

TheRedneck



posted on Jul, 1 2008 @ 11:27 AM
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Originally posted by mrk2012
Ultimately, we're just atoms. Collections of little bits of energy.


Yes. And, to me, this "energy" is what some call "God".



Originally posted by mrk2012
What is the point at which inorganic non-living molecules become life?


Hmmm, there are some basic scientific definitions somewhere.



Originally posted by mrk2012
What if there is no design, no intent and no meaning? Is it possible? Are we a fluke of chaos and causality?


We are not separate from the "energy" of life. We are the energy of life; the energy of life is "us".
To me, the meaning of Life is the meaning you give it.



Originally posted by mrk2012
My head hurts.


Indeed!



posted on Jul, 1 2008 @ 11:31 AM
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Hmmm. I wonder how that saying goes......

"I post...therefore .....I exist....



posted on Jul, 1 2008 @ 11:57 AM
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Define alive.

Depending on how you look at it, the entire universe could be "alive".



posted on Jul, 1 2008 @ 12:02 PM
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Originally posted by TheRedneck
Define 'alive'.

On a physical plane, we are simply matter that reacts to stimuli. The process is far from unknown in science: all matter reacts to stimuli, such as when a ball is kicked, it reacts by changing position. The ball is not alive, that is, it does not eat, grow, reproduce.

An amoeba doubtful has self-awareness, but it is alive. It consumes food, it grows, and it reproduces.

A weed does not exhibit signs of self-awareness, but it grows (man, oh, man does it grow!), consumes nutrients form the soil, and reproduces (man, oh, man does it reproduce!). It is alive.

Try this definition of 'alive' on for size: An organized arrangement of matter is alive if it is self-sustaining in its environment and able to expand itself through reproduction.

Sentience: An arrangement of matter is sentient if it can make decisions based on self-obtained desires to manipulate itself and/or its environment.

Can we agree on these definitions?

TheRedneck


Now you see, these are the very definitions I am challenging, you summed them up quite nicely.

I'm proposing that in spite of these definitions, sentience is still not being alive. Self aware, decision making beings who could go so far as to self terminate for no reason at all, just on a whim are still inorganic, causality examples.

At the core of my argument (if you can call it that) is that how the heck can a bunch of tiny points of energy eventually lead to me sitting at this computer?

My intent is to call in to question the very nature of that idea, the idea that we are advanced, sentient and sophisticated. Perhaps we aren't at all, and the only different between those early points of energy and us is the manner in which our individual points of energy have come together over time.

It's still all the same thing, energy is energy, it doesn't intend, want or desire anything. It is only governed by the forces of its environment.

So was the potential of Homosapiens always there? Even at the moment of inflation?

AHHH!! There is something I'm trying to communicate but it is so exotic and beyond comprehension that it is hard for me to articulate it!

Basically, how the hell can a system like the Universe and the pieces of which it is made, which is by no means alive in any way, just by chance come together and form a being that can apparently be defined as sentient!?

We -are- the universe, it's all the same material! This is what is bothering me, it's almost like me taking a handfull of sand and putting it in a jar, then finding little sand-like creatures living in it billions of years in the future, and the sand-creatures have gotten to the point where they question the jar and where they came from, HOW?!

How is this possible?

My head hurts more.



posted on Jul, 1 2008 @ 12:06 PM
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Originally posted by mrk2012

My head hurts more.


Because you don't understand the structure.



posted on Jul, 1 2008 @ 12:10 PM
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I can see where you are losing yourself.

You feel that because we are all ultimately made of the same energy, there is nothing to define who "We" are as a species, or as you put it; A living being.

It's terrible, isn't it?

Forgetting the thing that makes you human.



posted on Jul, 1 2008 @ 12:15 PM
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Originally posted by mrk2012

AHHH!! There is something I'm trying to communicate but it is so exotic and beyond comprehension that it is hard for me to articulate it!



Don't ever forget that feeling, that feeling will help you to see through lies and deception simply by remembering it.

The simple fact that you are striving to understand and comprehend it, is one of the things that makes you, and me, human.



posted on Jul, 1 2008 @ 12:18 PM
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Organic proteins.

Mainly enzymes.



posted on Jul, 1 2008 @ 12:19 PM
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Originally posted by Anti-Tyrant

Originally posted by mrk2012

My head hurts more.


Because you don't understand the structure.


No ONE knows ANYTHING!!!!!

Once you realize that, you become humbled and wouldn't make comments such as that.

The OP is right! We cannot prove our existence. No matter what someone says, it can and will be debated till the end of time. You will never find out in this psychical dimension of your true meaning. IMO, you will only see all when you are free from your body and this dimension.

So NO, you cannot prove your alive, its impossible. Saying things like I know I am because I am self aware of my being. That is hogwash! People say these things to be comforted by their own thoughts.

How do you know that you aren't some computer simulation, or this is all a dream? Prove it!

You cant!

This may explain why some disturbed individuals murder. They need to prove to themselves that they are alive by destroying another life. If they watch someone die, then that proves to them that they are alive and their actions actually have repercussions here in this dimension....

Sorry, just thinking out loud



posted on Jul, 1 2008 @ 12:27 PM
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Originally posted by Anti-Tyrant
I can see where you are losing yourself.

You feel that because we are all ultimately made of the same energy, there is nothing to define who "We" are as a species, or as you put it; A living being.

It's terrible, isn't it?

Forgetting the thing that makes you human.


Yes, exactly.

I'm not against the concept of "god" or a creator. Certainly, organized religion isn't without its virtues, but I am not a religious person.

Regardless, I don't want to get Religion and God mixed up. I think of Religion as nothing more than a means to explain how we got here, to explain god, or the creator.

I keep looking around, and whenever I read about Evolution, it just makes so much sense to me. God doesn't make sense to me.

However, when I delve in to these kinds of ideas, the idea that I can think abstractly and creatively on my own and that this is all from little points of energy that have existed for as long as the Universe has...well...it's almost like there MUST be something, or some kind of intelligent force that is behind the scenes...

I don't know who or what one would call it, God perhaps.

Either that or "life" is the natural result of causality in our universe. Either the last step or simply one of many steps in the line.

Then again, even if that is true, is that not significant? Is life as we know it significant...?

Problem: Significance is a product of human interpretation!

Is there anything out there in the Universe that could make such a call on whether or not something was significant?

Who or what is behind all of this, that's the real question. I feel so smart and we as a species seem so smart so when it comes to stuff like this it drives me crazy because we litterally are specks, we are ants but we KNOW it. We know we're indignifiance in this case and we will never be able to know the answer.

Why does anything exist instead of nothing? What is the grand design?

Personally I find this to be totally frightening and traumatizing! Why does the Universe exist at all? Is Non-existence possible?

How long has this been happening? Are there many Universes? Why?

All signs point to chaos, no reason only causality but then you get us, where do we fit in all of this?


Now I'm starting to see why people believe in their religious deities and heaven. It is like a small island of stability and reason in a place where there are NO answers and no reason.



posted on Jul, 1 2008 @ 12:42 PM
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Originally posted by Hefficide
Yes. "Cogito ergo sum" pretty much nails it. Self awareness is the key. I exist simply because I exist. My continued existence does not require any understanding of the process. Maybe I'm a character in somebody elses dream. Maybe I'm a hiccup in the way physics works. Regardless of the endless stream of potential theories, when it's all said and done, I am here.

It works for me.
you think like I do. In order not to explode my head I keep it simple. It works for me too. But I do like a good "brain pretzel" now and then.



posted on Jul, 1 2008 @ 12:44 PM
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reply to post by mrk2012
 


You realize ultimately everything in our universe is Energy. Even Mass is Energy. Energy/Mass can't be created or destroyed. Yet all of that Energy came from the initial Singularity.

I think it all comes down to Information.

Quote from Seth Loyd of MIT

according to Seth lloyd the observable universe represents 10^90 bits of information and the universe has performed 10^120 operations since the Big Bang. Given the computational nature of Black Holes- the average supermassive type black hole could easily make computations of this magnitude and beyond - the information density of a black hole is by definition at the Beckenstein Bound of 10^66 bits per sq cm- a super massive black hole has a radius of around 10^9 km- which makes the surface area around 10^19 sq km- with 10^66 bits per sq cm- the black hole stores 10^76 bits per sq km- that is.... 10^95 BITS total! [remember the universe is 10^90 bits]- and a supermassive black hole lasts for googolplexes of aeons- yet performs operations at Planck time- 10^43 flops per second [therefore processing 10^138 bits/sec] and will keep calculating at this rate for near eternity- as you can see- a supermassive Black hole CAN compute universes like ours quite comfortably indeed- in fact the entire history of our universe could be calculated within one-quintillionth [10^-18] of a second!


Now if a covered supermassive singularity, aka Black Hole can compute our universe including its past up to now in a quintillionth of a second, Just imagine what an infinite naked singularity, the one from which the universe expanded, could compute.



posted on Jul, 1 2008 @ 12:59 PM
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reply to post by mrk2012

I think I see what you're saying: how can the whole be greater than the sum of its parts? How can non-living matter form life?

I wonder if we really are greater than the sum of our parts, or if we simply cannot see all the parts. There is something inside each of us, something that makes us able to think, imagine, create, destroy, laugh, cry... but we do not know what it is.

I personally think it is because we are spiritually blind, unable to see the real beauty around us. This physical world we find ourselves in at birth is a marvelous, fantastic thing in itself; who knows how much more so are those things we cannot see? If the world of nature is a dream, then I would fear waking up. If it's a computer simulation, then kudos to the programmer.

If only he had stopped before he started the subroutine on the evils of humanity...

TheRedneck





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