Jolting tales surface of satanic rituals

Originally posted by Shadowflux

The real irony is that you know nothing about me or what I know yet you assume I'm an idiot and pass judgment on me right away. Who was it that said "Judge not lest ye be judged"? I don't know, I'm an idiot and know nothing about Christianity.

It is interesting how you keep attributing things to me that I have not said. I would much prefer a discussion of Shinto or Daoism than this back and forth with a satanist who wants christians to respect him for being a satanist, or some variation thereon...

Time and again you have made assertions as if they are statements of fact when they may just barely be workable theories. This was especially the case in your treatment of christian scriptures and the development of christian doctrine. Such dating and attribution is fraught with problems and not so easily addressed as your gloss implies.

Do I think you are an idiot? No. I simply find your positions either naïve, untenable, or wrong, and all of that ranges from your expressed neediness for christian respect of your religion, to your belief that no one could be criminally harmed in a satanic ritual, to your understanding of the formation and development of the various christian canons of scripture and doctrinal tenets.

As far as your expressed desire to be abused physically through whipping, that speaks for itself.

Originally posted by mr-lizard
I find that so amusing, considering how tolerant hinduism has been to most other religions, embracing jesus, budda and mohammed as just three amongst many other so called enlightened beings.
Yet it's the christians that consider their gods demons.
They hypocrisy would be funny if it wasn't so true.
Yet you quote it like you know what you're on about, India has christians living side by side with hindu's, sikhs, jain's, buddists, muslims and many others, in relative peace considering the size of the sub-continent.
I also find it really funny, that I, the atheist is the one who is correcting the religious here.

Well, you are very, very wrong. Hindus and Christians and Muslims and Sikhs do not live side by side in India in peace and tranquillity. Hindu violence against Christians and Muslims is an enormous problem. The Sikhs have problems with both Hindu and Muslim violence against them, and unlike the Christians they are perfectly happy to respond in kind.

as has been pointed out i would just like to say that satanisim as in the church of satan is not about worshiping "evil". it is about worshiping and respecting people as creature of virtue, vice, merits, flaws, free will and emotions. now on to the op.

the things these people did is horrible. rape and kidnapping and torture are bad, they are true horrors done by humans. now whatever these people used to exscuse this in their own minds be it a religon (although nothing has been shown to connect these two people as members of or having connections to the church of satan), some form of ideology, or what have you does not change the facts, they have commited crimes, horrendouse abuses of human beings. for that they should be triad in a fair trial. but if they bring up in court some percieved connection to satanisim then there will not be a fair trial seeing as how theres a large chance of there juriors and judge being christian.

as for the debate earlier concerning b&d, and s&m. it dosent matter it was done to some one against there will so there for it was non consensual. thats not fetish play. thats a crime so i hardly see whats the point bashing fetish play when thats not what it was and considering that fetish play is hardly "new" and has been indulged in for longer then any one on here has been alive.

and before someone accuses me of being a satanist no im not, im a thanatologist. a pagan.

Originally posted by rapinbatsisaltherage

The majority of the people on this planet have some type of fetish. Who are you or I to say what "normal" is? Marrying girls that hadn't reached puberty yet was normal in my country about a hundred to two hundred years ago. Something being normal doesn't make it right or wrong. A society at the given time decides what normal means.

All I know is that I tolerate and accept others for who they are long as they aren't hurting anyone else. That is a hell of a lot more "Christ" like than judging people. Meh.

[edit on 1-7-2008 by rapinbatsisaltherage]

It is a statement of fact, it isn't normal, because most people do not do it, ie it is not the norm, don't see why people get so hang up on the correct usage of this term

Originally posted by Shadowflux
I fear you are mistaking your opinions for fact. Kinky sexual behavior is no more aberrant than "normal" sexual behavior.

Aberant is defined as "deviating from what is normal", so clearly, kinky is deviating from "normal" behaviour

reply to post by blueorder


define what is `normal` and what is `kinky`

be careful though as your opinion might well be different to others in other cultures.

Originally posted by Harlequin

 

define what is `normal` and what is `kinky`

be careful though as your opinion might well be different to others in other cultures.

normal means the usual or expected state, so in sexuality it is normal to be straight as opposed to gay because gays are only 4-10% (whatever you pin your percentage on) of the population, so it is not normal. This is correct factual usage of the term "normal"- and does not necessarily mean bad.


I have no idea why I should be referencing every single "culture" on earth, if we are speaking English, and talking about "normal", then it is quite clear in what context I am using it, it may not be in the context of some Amazonian tribesman, but to be honest, I dont care

maybe your a politician since you totally avoided the question;

what is `normal` and what is `kinky` ; and why should yo reference other cultures - as quite frankly they care as much for you as you do for them - but at least other countries have an opinion of the west as it would seem apathy is oozing from your very words.

but the point im making is what you consider to be `normal` or `kinky` (which you haven`t defeined as yet anyway) will be different around the planet to other people.

so who are you to judge .

Originally posted by Harlequin
maybe your a politician since you totally avoided the question;

what is `normal` and what is `kinky` ; and why should yo reference other cultures - as quite frankly they care as much for you as you do for them - but at least other countries have an opinion of the west as it would seem apathy is oozing from your very words.

but the point im making is what you consider to be `normal` or `kinky` (which you haven`t defeined as yet anyway) will be different around the planet to other people.


so who are you to judge .

Kinky is a taste for unusual sexual practices, so, by definition it is not normal


S&M would not be considered normal, whether it is good or bad, not normal, you see


Who am I to judge, why in the hell not, and I was explaining how the terms "normal", and "kinky", in their correct factual dictionary applications- if you have a problem with the english language and its cultural application, knock yourself out

As for other cultures, you mentioned them, so I responded

[edit on 2-7-2008 by blueorder]

I don't know how prevalent Satanic worship is, I know I have seen a lot of people who claim to be Christians who seem to be anything but Christian like. In fact that was one of the things that long ago made me reexamine my "Christian" faith. On the other hand, I do know people who believe themselves to be either witches are warlocks, and attempt to act the part.

I have recently been studying on this very subject, in light of several videos I seen on YouTube, and believe that there may very well be a larger number of people who are worshipers of satanic beliefs than I would have ever imagined, and that those who do believe in such beliefs does include some people in the highest positions in this country.

As I have gotten older, there are more things that seem to become apparent to me that I would not have even thought about when I was younger. I suppose to those who have hardly ever even been out of their backyard, that a lot of things that they hear about, they just don't believe could be possible, but having traveled throughout the world, and seen some of the things I have, there isn't much that I don't believe is possible.

I have never been a part of any kind of rituals myself, but I have been to places where I was told that rituals were going to be or had been performed, and either left, and returned later to see evidence that such rituals had been performed, or else been in places where I seen evidence of such rituals having been performed.

Were these rituals satanic, or were they witchcraft, are witchcraft rituals satanic in nature, I suppose are all question that would have to be ask. Then it becomes even more questionable as to whether these rituals were performed by what would be considered "dabblers," or were they performed by true converts to the satanic/witchcraft beliefs.

What does seem apparent is that there is a large number of people, including large numbers of children that disappear every year without a trace. Moreover, there have been news reports of cases where satanic or other cults and groups reportedly performed bizarre rituals to include rituals where there were human sacrifices performed. These reports have surfaced throughout the United States, and around the world.

If satanic worship is in fact more prevalent, than one would like to believe, and there is a elite group that does believe in satanism, it would seem to me that there could be a very concerted to keep that under wraps, and covered up. Many of the secret societies that do exist, when studied with an objective eye do have what would seemingly be paganistic rituals that they perform, and many of these rituals have been tied to satanic rituals.

There has also been much talk about the NWO and high ranking leaders who are purported to have ties to satanic or other rituals. It has been documented that at places such as Bohemian Grove that rituals are performed, and while every effort has been made to cast off these rituals as no more than something akin to "child's play," It seems evident that these rituals do in fact have some significance.

I have also been told that there is a belief among some soldiers in Satanism, and that the extent and prevalence of it in the military is being covered up. I do know that when I was in the military, 1970-1983 that there was some soldiers who had satanic beliefs, but as to how many there were that where more than mere "dabblers" I never seen any statistics on. I understand though that the military of my day and the military today are as different as night and day.

I do believe that there should be some concern as to how widespread satanic worship is, and to what effect it does and will have on society if it is allowed to go unchecked, and unchallenged.

There are some sick people out there...
One person's imaginary friend says , 'love thy neighbor'.
Another person's imaginary freind says, 'rip their hearts out'.
If I had an imaginary freind, she would say,' come back to bed, Stud'- or something like that.
Maybe, ' reef the mainsail boys, looks like we're in for a hurricane...'
I guess I judge most peoples choice of delusion as dumb, and mine as not, somehow...
Common mistake.

reply to post by burdman30ott6



Hi all - this is my first post - I've been a lurker for a long time though and regularly read the website.

Anyway, I found this amusing....

**It would be akin to someone building a government on the base principles of Adolph Hitler and defending it by saying "but we're not Nazis." **

You mean like the USA currently?

hehe.

Back to topic.... Just thought that I had to reply on this thread, to say that I cannot help but agree with ShadowFlux. Post after post of reasoned argument is how it appears to a 3rd party.

Personally, I do not follow a religion, however similarly I do not class myself as an atheist - I find the whole pigeon-holing of people into categories ignorant, since it is clear that many that follow the same religions still live by differing beliefs.

I live in a multi-cultural area of the UK (my family heritage can be traced more than 500 years back in the UK too) - in my street alone there are probably 10+ different nationalites and no doubt different religions too. We respect each other as neighbours, and therefore we get on, and effectively share our lives together, despite differences in beliefs. I have many friends following different religions etc, but it matters not to me.

Essentially we all hold the same core values, and behave in a socially responsible manner.

On a day to day basis, we are kind to each other, help each other, and generally behave and act in ways that we would be happy for others to behave and act towards us. I don't need a religion to tell me to do this.. this is called logic.

Shadowflux has made every effort in this thread to passively explain his point, but I feel the people arguing the Christian side of things have done an injustice to themsleves and their religion by attacking him. Surely Christianity teaches understanding of others' feelings and views?

The fact that you are totally missing his point is a little disheartening - he's just saying Satanism is a recognised religion, as is Christianity, Judaism etc etc. How can you argue with that?? People are entitled to their opinions with regard to religion, and I respect yours, and it appears to me that Shadowflux does too. He's not asking you to agree with his religion, he's simply stating that it is a religion to him as much as Christianity is to you, and therefore he will defend it in the same way you would.

If everybody took the same stance as those that have commented here, we would certainly all be fighting each other forever.

In terms of logical argument Shadowflux appears greatly superior to the counter-arguments put forth by the Christians, which quite frankly, are thinly veiled attempts at preaching the illogical, having presented little evidence if any. I also find your comments generally naive... yes you may understand your own religion, but sometimes you should look outside of that, and look deeper than just key words that you think have a certain meaning.

Religions are not what matter - we are all fellow man and should love each other equally. I see no place for religion in a peaceful world... hence we don't have one. .........divide and conquer.......?? religion??


Regards,

The logical independent uninterested reader required to add some sanity back to this thread.


Obv anything done without consent is a crime and should be dealt with appropriately. Satanism should not be mentioned as is likely to be taken out of context, as it has been.

[edit on 2-7-2008 by rakeswapper]

It must be said that the devil is a master of Scripture, but uses it out of context and incompletely in an attempt to create confusion and doubt. Fear, doubt, and death are the province of the devil. We must always remember he is a defeated foe, not to be feared.

It must also be said that there are many who profess to be Christians who are anything but. Christ was aware of this and spoke of it in the parable of the wheat and the tares. He also said there would be many who would come to Him saying Lord, Lord, and He would say He never knew them.

Matthew 7

20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Here's the latest.

Couple face more sex charges
More details of alleged satanic activity emerge

A husband and wife face more charges in a case that contains allegations of sexual assault and satanic rituals that include shackling, caging and depriving a man of food and water.

The warrants accuse Johnson of "instigating and encouraging" her husband as he handcuffed a man and forced him "into a dog cage, leaving him there for hours, terrorizing him."

I am waiting to see how the aberrant sexual and criminal behavior alleged in this story are linked to satanism. So far, all that has been revealed is criminal activity. There has been no link to satanic rituals other than the specualtion about the nature and intent of the Indigo Dawn website.

After looking over the site just now, it appears to be a vehicle to draw young people to them and bring them under their influence. Mr. Craig is listed as a Reverend. I'm curious as to what church, as it does not say. The thrust seems to be gnosis and self empowerment. Imo, the picture of board member Alin Tiberiu Lacatus is especially creepy, bordering on diabolical.

reply to post by jmdewey60


Satan defends nothing but himself and that is why he fights, idealogically. Suppose you believe that there will be an eternal reckoning?! What will be the eternal and deciding factor?! In my eyes, it is the way to truth for life. A lie is a self deceit, and would decimate the thought process of being. What is the joy in living at that point... prediction and prose of failure with jimmies of "righteousness"?!? sure.

I'll side with truth any day. Nothing else would teach actual, applicable survival.

Duh.

reply to post by rakeswapper


I, too, give credit to Shadowflux for his even-handed approach. I don't agree with him, but that doesn't mean I hate him. Hate the evil, love the good.

Christ associated with sinners and reprobates of all kinds. Again, not that Shadowflux falls into this category. The point is, Christ came to seek and save the lost. Many Christians seem to forget this, and come off as elitist. It does the spiritual movement that is Christianity a disservice, imo.

Evil takes up residence in the vulnerable and disaffected. It is not the person, it is the influence of evil that produces the behavior.

Matthew 12

43 When the unclean spirit is gone out of a man, he walketh through dry places, seeking rest, and findeth none.

44 Then he saith, I will return into my house from whence I came out; and when he is come, he findeth it empty, swept, and garnished.

45 Then goeth he, and taketh with himself seven other spirits more wicked than himself, and they enter in and dwell there: and the last state of that man is worse than the first. Even so shall it be also unto this wicked generation.

The Great commission says to "Go, baptize and teach," not to "browbeat, bind, and shackle." Everything must be done out of love and compassion. Sinners must be accepted. Sin must not. Condemnation only serves to alienate those most in need of the Gospel of Salvation that Jesus Christ died on the Cross to bring to a desperate world. His Resurrection is proof of His Truth. My salvation experience and the presence of the Holy Spirit indwelling me is all I need to testify of Him to others.

Originally posted by CallMeMaury
Sounds like they engaged in some bondage and S&M with some unwilling people, which is absolutely terrible and gives a bad name to every normal personal who likes that stuff. ...

Point of order, Mr. Chairman. If someone is into bondage and S&M, that person isn't "normal", BY DEFINITION.

While I don't think there's anything wrong with it, if that's how someone gets their kicks in bed (and assuming consent, of course), it most definitely isn't NORMAL.

Originally posted by krill
as has been pointed out i would just like to say that satanisim as in the church of satan is not about worshiping "evil". it is about worshiping and respecting people as creature of virtue, vice, merits, flaws, free will and emotions. now on to the op. ...

Another point of order, Mr Chairman.

Anton LaVey, the founder of the church of satan said "Do as thou will is the whole of the law.". Very specifically, this DOES leave room for "worshiping evil", and allows for rape and torture.

Which "religion" sounds like it is more about "respecting people as creature of virtue, vice, merits, flaws, free will and emotions"?

1) "Do as thou will is the whole of the law."

2) "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you."

Originally posted by sir_chancealot

Point of order, Mr. Chairman. If someone is into bondage and S&M, that person isn't "normal", BY DEFINITION.

While I don't think there's anything wrong with it, if that's how someone gets their kicks in bed (and assuming consent, of course), it most definitely isn't NORMAL.

thank you, that is EXACTLY my point!

Originally posted by Harlequin
maybe your a politician since you totally avoided the question;

what is `normal` and what is `kinky` ; and why should yo reference other cultures - as quite frankly they care as much for you as you do for them - but at least other countries have an opinion of the west as it would seem apathy is oozing from your very words.

but the point im making is what you consider to be `normal` or `kinky` (which you haven`t defeined as yet anyway) will be different around the planet to other people.

so who are you to judge .

Why don't you say what you really mean here? "I am into S&M, and I want to think of myself as 'normal', and I don't want anyone to view me as a freak because of this."?

Look dude (or dudette, whatever), I don't care if you like to tie people up and spank them, nor do I care if that's what you want done to you. It means not a hill of beans to me.

However, I DO care when people attempt to twist individual words to mean whatever they want them to mean. Most people are not into S&M, therefore, by definition anyone who is into S&M is not normal

Let's quit using the polite term S&M and say what it really means: Sadism and Masochism, which, in a very simplistic way means the following. Sadism is receiving sexual pleasure when causing pain to others. Masochism is receiving sexual pleasure in receiving pain. Now, does that sound "normal" to anyone else? I could care less what you do in your bedroom, but please! Individual words should not be twisted to mean anything you want them to mean.

edited to correct a missed "end underline"


[edit on 2-7-2008 by sir_chancealot]