A Time for Choosing

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posted on Jun, 30 2008 @ 09:15 PM
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reply to post by Anti-Tyrant
 


While they might not be close, they are the philosophical and political basis of the system we live in, the system you guys seem so intent on spreading with a made in USA sticker, all over the world, with blood, sweat and tears.




posted on Jun, 30 2008 @ 11:15 PM
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White phosphorus was used CHLuke in the early years. It burns at 3000 degree fareheit. It was used against 'enemy combatants'. Unfortunately, women and kids and puppies got in the way sometimes.
It was finally deemed to nasty to use in warfare.
LOL, the early years, now into a ten year 'war'. With no exit plan.

[edit on 6/30/2008 by jpm1602]



posted on Jul, 1 2008 @ 12:46 AM
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You want to know why?

It's because no one got up on a damn stage and said "Iraq! You are Free!" and started handing out guns.


I completely agree with you. But maybe they are not too far away from doing it soon. Who knows, they might actually get tired of the suicide bombers enough to stand up on their own rather than rely on foreign troops.



posted on Jul, 1 2008 @ 01:32 AM
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Originally posted by whaaa



Why aren't you in Afghanistan?


I've been asking myself that very question lately. And while I dream of being in the air force and eventually go to the moon, perhaps I should just start off on the ground? This is a question I have fighting myself over lately.


You seem more than willing for American boys and girls to fight and die there. And In other parts of the world.


It may "seem" like that but I assure you that I wish that not one of them would die. I have the utmost respect for those men and women who put their life on the line to fight for their ideals. I cannot think of more brave people in this world. That is why I'm planning join the fight in the near future.

BTW This thread is about the growing popularity of the blame america for all the worlds ills when it is my opinion that it is quite the opposite.


You also seem to think that Americans should be willing to spend their hard earned taxdollars on foreign intervention.


Yes wasting money protecting your country and other countries around the world sounds like the worst investment ever. Perhaps it would be better to give the money to government officials to spend on more useless social programs.


I think that you are ideologically challenged


well that's a matter of opinion and thank you for yours


and need to put in your military time as I did, and perhaps get a little real life experience.


Sounds like good advice. Point taken.


Instead of this academic BS you profess.


If I have come across as some up tight university type a--hole, forgive me, because I'm just a 23 year old at the ol' fork in the road.


Comfy keyboard warriors....


I can honestly tell you I'm not comfortable



Perhaps "A time for YOUR choosing" eh.


Exactly




[edit on 1-7-2008 by Cool Hand Luke]

[edit on 1-7-2008 by Cool Hand Luke]



posted on Jul, 1 2008 @ 01:40 AM
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reply to post by jpm1602
 


I am well aware of white phosphorus is, I was just curious which war you were talkin about.



posted on Jul, 1 2008 @ 02:28 AM
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Ya know what?

America has been a great place for us, I'll admit it.

But those times have been coming to a close, and they are ending now.

We are waking up to something more than self and material gain and capitalism and consumerism and national pride... and the old bullcrap isn't cutting it anymore because it was all a lie to begin with.

Memories of blissful ignorance may be pleasant and warm sometimes, but they are just memories. We need to move on, and we need to move on fast. Our world is at stake here... and we have barely enough time to save it, and people are still all starry eyed about a goddamn flag and some campfire legends about the olden days? These aren't those days anymore. America is nothing like it once was, and I can't believe we're still trying to pretend like all of this sterile pre-packaged pre-determined living is what anybody had originally had in mind when revolting against the crown. You're trumpeting an urban legend. It was so long ago, and history has been so convoluted (I mean, we haven't even got a clue what's going on a few miles away in our city halls most of the time, how can we pretend like we're 100 percent certain that our history buffs aren't painting a bit of gloss on a dull and much less romantic view of the motivations behind the formation of the USA?

We don't know much about anything, and not only are we dumbed down to the point of madness, but we're being severely domesticated to the point where people rarely ever go out anymore unless it's to get drunk or laid, and everything our daily monotonous lives are about right now are based on shallow greed and hollow fears...

Corporations now own America, the world, and the population, the militaries, and they are all rapidly spinning out of control with greed and and power. It's not enough to sell a product anymore. They've gotta make sure their consumers are hooked to their brand, can't live without their brand, make the brand part of their personality (think automobiles and big oil. We really have no choice in that matter) and so they brainwash us with unending bombardments of advertisments. You can't go almost anywhere without being visually or aurally assaulted by pushy ad campaigns. What if I don't want to buy or see your product? Do I even have a choice? What if I don't wanna work my life away? What if I don't want the state or some snobby eletist school to educate me or my (nonexistent) kids on their narrow yet arrogantly over-confident view of my world?
What if I just want to be LEFT ALONE to do and interact with the world as I see fit?


Sir/madam of the OP.... America is the people, not the government. Love the people, but only tolerate the government as long as you can directly influence the direction it goes.

I feel tears well up sometimes because I wish we could work this out and keep our culture the way it is... but then I realize that we don't even have a culture. We were sold our culture. We were preached our culture. Our whole country was always and still is based on hypocrisy.



posted on Jul, 1 2008 @ 03:22 AM
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Originally posted by dunwichwitch



But those times have been coming to a close, and they are ending now.

Says who?


We are waking up to something more than self and material gain and capitalism and consumerism and national pride... and the old bullcrap isn't cutting it anymore because it was all a lie to begin with.


So getting educated,getting a job to buy the things we need in order to live and support families is now "old bullcrap"? Its no longer true?


Memories of blissful ignorance may be pleasant and warm sometimes, but they are just memories.


So the allied powers victory in WW1, WW2, WW3 (aka cold war) never happened?


Our world is at stake here... and we have barely enough time to save it


Is time running out? I didn't seem to get the memo


America is nothing like it once was


I agree,it continues to get better and will only get better the rate at which will be determined by the voters


I can't believe we're still trying to pretend like all of this sterile pre-packaged pre-determined living is what anybody had originally had in mind when revolting against the crown.


You're absolutely right, they could not forsee how great the future was


how can we pretend like we're 100 percent certain that our history buffs aren't painting a bit of gloss on a dull and much less romantic view of the motivations behind the formation of the USA?


There are libraries full of history, you get the fun of deciding what is true and what is not


We don't know much about anything, and not only are we dumbed down to the point of madness


Watch who your talkin to fella



but we're being severely domesticated to the point where people rarely ever go out anymore unless it's to get drunk or laid


I disagree and know many people who feel the same way. BTW whats wrong with gettin laid?
,


and everything our daily monotonous lives are about right now are based on shallow greed and hollow fears...


Maybe you should get out more and do something you like doing and stop feeling afraid


What if I don't want to buy or see your product?


Then don't. Nobody is telling you to


Do I even have a choice?


You always have a choice


What if I don't wanna work my life away?


There are millions of tax payers that are more than happy to pay for your lifestyle. Will that make you happy?


What if I don't want the state or some snobby eletist school to educate me or my (nonexistent) kids on their narrow yet arrogantly over-confident view of my world?


Teach yourself, many people do home schooling


What if I just want to be LEFT ALONE to do and interact with the world as I see fit?


You are free to step outside anytime you feel like


America is the people, not the government. Love the people, but only tolerate the government as long as you can directly influence the direction it goes.


I agree 100%, and you will be directly influencing the government this november


Our whole country was always and still is based on hypocrisy.


Please clarify and don't worry so much. You forgot how much power you have. The stage is set for you, how will you act?

[edit on 1-7-2008 by Cool Hand Luke]grammar, quoting , the usual

[edit on 1-7-2008 by Cool Hand Luke]



posted on Jul, 1 2008 @ 06:46 AM
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reply to post by Zepherian
 


Pretty much, yeah.

If we didn't, you lot probably would've sailed right over the ocean and brought the fight to the europeans.



posted on Jul, 1 2008 @ 06:58 AM
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reply to post by Cool Hand Luke
 


not to be rude to the OP bc i admire his patriotism towards his country.


IRAQ pre war was one of the most stable countrys in the middle east world.

Good education, decent health care system compare to other countrys steady economicly.

democracy has no place in those countrys and it hasnt for 1000's of years it is there culture the way they live and no one should try and change it bc it will not work.

America came in and turnd it into ruble , FOR WAT EXACTLY? Weapons of mass destruction? or OIL?

if america want to do good why not step in and stop the crisis the people of zimbabwe are facing? WHY? bc there is no benefit? NO OIL? nothing to gain?

if the power houses of this world were so good there wouldnt be poverty in alot of countrys. there wouldnt be not one starving kid in african countrys let alone there own.

like i said im not here to bag you or america but i will totaly disagree with such a statement.



posted on Jul, 1 2008 @ 07:03 AM
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The war in Iraq didn't start for some nuclear weapons who actually weren't there?Then it turned out to be a fight for the freedom of iraqi people...

These days i see topics in ATS that Iran could use some "freedom" too...


I only posted a few words and i allready know that i'm gonna be flamed with a polite,or not,way.

It's the reason why i avoid to post in topics like this,cause the big majority of the US people still believe that are fighting for a right cause etc...

I gotta say a big bravo though to those few people who are trying to stop the killings not just for their troops but also for the innocent ones who die for no reason.It takes balls to admit the errors of your own country and take actions against it. (i'm talking about the protests)



posted on Jul, 1 2008 @ 10:00 AM
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reply to post by Cool Hand Luke
 


Bravo. Great thread. Starred and Flagged for you, my friend.

Your post provided a welcome break from the rampant anti-America, anti-Bush threads that are littered throughout this board. It seems so many people on here are willing to accept any source and remove any doubt so long as it paints America and our President in a negative light. Al Qaida could put out a press release about American soldiers eating Iraqi babies, and people on here would start a thread about it as if it came from the Associated Press and was actually true. The motto of this site is to "deny ignorance", but so many here set that motto aside when it comes to justifying their unfounded hatred of our President and the policies of this nation.

The truth is that no country in the history of mankind has given more of its lives, shed more of its blood, and spent more of its riches to free and defend MILLIONS of innocent people around the world. And the world is a better place because of the United States and our brave men and women in uniform. But you wouldn't know that from surfing the boards here on ATS. You would think that the US government is akin to North Korea's, and that President Bush is Satan in the flesh.

It is really disheartening coming here sometimes. But it is reassuring to see posts like yours. And as an American, I thank you for that. It speaks volumes when someone from another country, someone who is actually fair and objective, can appreciate what's great about this nation. No one is saying that America is perfect, or that George Bush is George Washington. We've made our mistakes in the past and we will continue to make mistakes in the future. That's just part of being human beings. But when you weigh the good that this country has done against the bad, we certainly come out way ahead.

Once again, great post. Please keep them coming! God Bless America, and God Bless Canada!!!



posted on Jul, 1 2008 @ 10:38 AM
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Originally posted by Cool Hand Luke

Surely when America declared its independence, a new kind of democracy emerged that was unique to the world at that time.



A democracy? We were set up as a republic not a democracy. A democracy lets crazed groups like the Christian right to hijack the direction of our country.

We were a republic, big business wants you to believe in democracy.

Oh and Regan ruined our middle class and set up the media control. He was one of the most misguided presidents ever. He had good intentions but was manipulated to play ball with his CIA vice president, when he had shown signs of waking up to the game played on him the had an assassination attempt to get him back to their reality.



posted on Jul, 1 2008 @ 11:46 AM
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reply to post by Cool Hand Luke
 


And how many suicide bombers were there BEFORE America entered that war? It's a reasonable question. Here is the answer. ZERO!

That is NOT why we are there. I get sick and tired of people spilling out hogwash when it comes to the reasons for being in Iraq. We were LIED into Iraq because Georgie Porgie wanted to get his big piece of the oil pie. Period.

Now they are trying to spin the fact that the commission found them guilty of lying about the intel.

It's sickening to see that people are still defending this administration by saying that they are doing good. Because remember, it's not our troops that chose to start this war. It was the rich bastards that are getting fatter and fatter by the day off of this war.

I am a veteran myself. I support the 'troops' fully. They are told where to go and what to do and they are taught not to question orders. It's said to say but I think more and more should begin to question them. Wait, they are.

So let's be clear on why we are in Iraq. It's part of the plan. First on the list was Afghanistan. Second was Iraq. Third is Iran. Fourth and last is China, or the 'far east' as described by the CFR in their own document. The date this document was submitted to our government? September 11, 2000.

Link to info on "Rebuilding America's Defenses"...

I can't find the document on their site right now. I do have a copy of it that I downloaded from the site and in it they quite explicitely state the above plan. That it was essential to the successful defense of America.

Excuse me? Also, a nice little bit that I truly enjoy is the fact that they state it would take roughly 100 years of work for this to take place. That the only way we could move it along faster is in the event of a major catastrophe such as "Another Pearl Harbor". Funny how Georgie Porgie used those EXACT words in one of his addresses to the nation after September 11th.

I believe in coincidences but not when SO MANY of them line up the way they have during the past three administrations.

It's about the oil folks. Even though 'they (the CFR)' say that it is the only way that we can establish ourselves as the only super power for the next century. It's about money and oil. Period. And the close friends of the people in office have made out like bandits.



posted on Jul, 1 2008 @ 11:54 AM
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reply to post by Rasputin13
 


What gets me is the fact that you have one of the biggest criminal presidents ever as your avatar! That just kills me.

Do I hate America because I believe this administration is corrupt? Answer, and it may shock you, is NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO! I am NOT anti American. I love my country and fought for it. That's what I am doing now by trying to expose these criminals in office. I am loving my country and fighting for it. It's people that simply buy and swallow everything that this administration is saying as truth that is allowing them to keep doing this crap. Especially when they have been caught over and over in big lies. So let me ask you my friend, when are YOU going to wake up and see that these guys are a bunch of rich thugs who think they can rule the world? They have lied to you too and yet you still believe those lies to be truth obviously. It's sad to see.

And when someone questions this government I bet you are one of the first to jump on them and call them anti-American. That's pretty sad. Especially when we are what this country was meant to be. To question those that we supposedly put in charge and to hold them accountable for destroying OUR image in the world's eye.

Have we done good in the past? Yes and no. You can say that for every single war we have been in. Bombing Japan ended the war and saved millions of lives (our lives). Yet hundreds of thousands of survivors AND their offspring suffer to this day because of that event. Sure, it brought them out of the dark ages and made them what they are today but is is justifiable? I can't answer that. If I were suffering from the effects of those bombs I would probably say no.

[edit on 1-7-2008 by dariousg]



posted on Jul, 1 2008 @ 11:56 AM
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Great thread and great video!!

Damn, Reagan was a great President and such a great speaker. Not many people know that he wrote all his own speeches unlike current politicians.

It just reinforces by beliefs on how correct Reagan was and how great of a leader he turned out to be for America. If not for Reagan, our country would have been dead a long time ago due to the liberal mindset of appeasement and government intervention from cradle to grave.

Liberals are once again beginning to infect the mass populace with their outdated and dangerous ideals. Hopefully after this coming election, we conservatives will be able to find and elect another true American like Reagan to help fix the coming downturn of America due to the liberal agenda.



posted on Jul, 1 2008 @ 01:28 PM
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Originally posted by gate13
reply to post by Cool Hand Luke
 


not to be rude to the OP bc i admire his patriotism towards his country.


Thank you but I would like to remind everyone I am canadian and have never lived there for more a month at a time.


IRAQ pre war was one of the most stable countrys in the middle east world.


It might have been "stable" but by no means was it heaven for the people living there, especially those who opposed the dictator.


Good education, decent health care system compare to other countrys steady economicly.


Sounds like a great place, but again what happened to those who opposed the dictator


democracy has no place in those countrys and it hasnt for 1000's of years it is there culture the way they live and no one should try and change it bc it will not work.


I disagree, but agree that their democracy will never be like the Americans. Should the people not have the right to vote or should they have continued to shutup in fear of angering the dictator?


America came in and turnd it into ruble , FOR WAT EXACTLY? Weapons of mass destruction? or OIL?


Definitely not for oil, I think that is propaganda because we. in North America have oodles of it. As far as wmd's go, isn't dictatorship itself a wmd? I mean look at how much death Saddam caused his own people simply to keep them inline.

The country was not in total ruin, but they did make a statement I give you that.


if america want to do good why not step in and stop the crisis the people of zimbabwe are facing? WHY? bc there is no benefit? NO OIL? nothing to gain?


Perhaps they should be in Darfur, Tibet, and all those countries that need a hand. There are many wars going on right now. Iraq happens to be where the US is right now. I can almost guarantee you that if say US was in Zimbabwe, you would still have the anti war people complaining about america.
Why choose Iraq? Because I wonder what would happen if US had not gone to Iraq. The whole middle east was growing with anti Israel and anti American attitude. Should US have left them untouched and let them grow militarily. Perhaps US should let Russia spread all over during the Cold War.
I don't think I would want to be alive right now if both of those things would've happened


if the power houses of this world were so good there wouldnt be poverty in alot of countrys. there wouldnt be not one starving kid in african countrys let alone there own.


Sounds great. But what happens to the money and aide that goes to these countries? The dictators and the militias steal them so as to keep their populations at bay. Maybe US should invade the whole of Africa to remove these dictators. I would love to see that but it ain't gonna happen. First you would have to start the draft again in order to get enough soldiers and then you would have to get congress of its a@@ to spend some money on it. I doubt most of the population of america is ready for that.


like i said im not here to bag you or america but i will totaly disagree with such a statement.


I didn't think you were here to bag me or america. But yes we have a difference of opinion and I do appreciate yours. But you and I agree on the same thing. We both wish we lived in a world where everyone was free and had at least the basic necessities of life like food, clean water, education etc. The question is how do we get there?

[edit on 1-7-2008 by Cool Hand Luke]



posted on Jul, 1 2008 @ 01:48 PM
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Originally posted by Oceanborn
The war in Iraq didn't start for some nuclear weapons who actually weren't there?Then it turned out to be a fight for the freedom of iraqi people...


Is that any less of a reason to remove a dictator?


These days i see topics in ATS that Iran could use some "freedom" too...


When a leader of country says they will wipe another country of the map and that other country happens to be one of your allies, what do you do?


I only posted a few words and i allready know that i'm gonna be flamed with a polite,or not,way.


Sorry I'll try more name calling next time.
I blame it on my upbringing


It's the reason why i avoid to post in topics like this,cause the big majority of the US people still believe that are fighting for a right cause etc...


On the contrary, I see most of the threads on ats and most media outlets flaming America. I felt compelled to interject at least a little more to the other side of the argument.


I gotta say a big bravo though to those few people who are trying to stop the killings not just for their troops but also for the innocent ones who die for no reason.It takes balls to admit the errors of your own country and take actions against it. (i'm talking about the protests)


I think it takes "balls" to realize freedom has always come at a price. We only need to look at the war of independence, civil war, WW1, WW2, cold war etc etc... to realize that.
Make no mistake war is hell, but neccessary for change.



posted on Jul, 1 2008 @ 01:51 PM
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Reagan was a good president because he didn't invade every third-world country that made him mad. Just like Bush, Reagan was pushed and prodded by neoconservatives who have a global agenda, but Reagan chose to resist much of what they wanted. Future presidents should have taken note.

When did we invade the Soviet Union? Oh, that's right... NEVER. But for some reason, Iraq was apparently seen by many to pose a far greater threat than the Soviet Union. Or was it that Iraq was seen as LESS of a threat, and so the benefits (oil, new military bases) outweighed the costs (a couple thousand American troops dead, the entire muslim world angry at us)? After all, it was Reagan who said "History teaches that war begins when governments believe the price of aggression is cheap."

He also said "A people free to choose will always choose peace" and "Peace is not absence of conflict, it is the ability to handle conflict by peaceful means." Reagan would be laughed out of the Republican party nowadays with comments like those, which is a sad indictment on the state of the party today.



posted on Jul, 1 2008 @ 02:15 PM
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Originally posted by Rasputin13
reply to post by Cool Hand Luke
 


Your post provided a welcome break from the rampant anti-America, anti-Bush threads that are littered throughout this board.


Thank you. That is exactly why posted it.


It seems so many people on here are willing to accept any source and remove any doubt so long as it paints America and our President in a negative light. Al Qaida could put out a press release about American soldiers eating Iraqi babies, and people on here would start a thread about it as if it came from the Associated Press and was actually true.


I blame it on depression. Some people think their lives are hell so they spend all their time and energy making others believe their lives are terrible also.
Misery loves company


The motto of this site is to "deny ignorance", but so many here set that motto aside when it comes to justifying their unfounded hatred of our President and the policies of this nation.


For many, its easier to believe the Michael Moores' of the world because he does it with multi million dollar movies. People tend to trust these sources because they seem as though these people have actually done research and presented truth. When in fact, it is exactly opposite and the movie that they trust to be true is nothing more than lies.


The truth is that no country in the history of mankind has given more of its lives, shed more of its blood, and spent more of its riches to free and defend MILLIONS of innocent people around the world. And the world is a better place because of the United States and our brave men and women in uniform.


I agree 100%. Its a shame people forget that.


But you wouldn't know that from surfing the boards here on ATS. You would think that the US government is akin to North Korea's, and that President Bush is Satan in the flesh.


lol Yeah well many people don't realize what life in North Korea is like and don't care to find out. Bush is an easy target for people because he is not the best public speaker. But make no mistake, the man has balls...lol I don't think even the haters can deny that.


It speaks volumes when someone from another country, someone who is actually fair and objective, can appreciate what's great about this nation.

Its the least I can do for a country that gives a child that dreams about walking on the moon the ability to do so.


No one is saying that America is perfect, or that George Bush is George Washington.


The world seems to get pissed off when he can't walk on water....



We've made our mistakes in the past and we will continue to make mistakes in the future. That's just part of being human beings. But when you weigh the good that this country has done against the bad, we certainly come out way ahead.


Absolutely. Perhaps the reason the people around the world get disheartened every time America makes a mistake is because America has set the bar so high. Is it a good or bad thing?


Once again, great post. Please keep them coming! God Bless America, and God Bless Canada!!!


Thank you very much... Very refreshing to know I'm not alone when I see good things in this world



posted on Jul, 1 2008 @ 02:37 PM
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It makes me laugh when people talk about nation states, as if they have any real signifiance in the present day world. Talk about what America has done for the world all you want. However, while you do it, the same puppet masters that pull the strings of Europe, are pulling the strings of America.





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