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Meltdown US banks within weeks says Fortis chairman

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posted on Jun, 30 2008 @ 03:18 AM
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Investors also speculate on falling share prices...

The fact that RBS and Fortis both announce a meltdown could only mean one thing: it's about to happen and soon. Do you really think they did not see this coming two months ago? Read the article I posted. Suddenly they have discovered in two months that the situation is much worse than they though... sure...




posted on Jun, 30 2008 @ 03:46 AM
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reply to post by Mdv2
 


I agree Mdv2, but I also find that the "big man" tends to win on the speculation of falling prices rather than the small investor who goes for the up.

All of this comes down to the fact that economists don't really know what they are doing. People have the mistaken belief that we are proactive in the economy, rather, we are reactive.

We buy on the hype which gives us faith. Economists are people too (some of them at least) and even with the extra knowledge that they have they still rely on faith. If it was a sure-thing, it would be illegal, haha!

Spot on with the "2 month" thing though. Funny how the man in the street has more insight into these things than the guys at the top. Mind you, they'll still make their buck out of it, it'll be the folks saving for college funds or their old age that get crippled.



posted on Jun, 30 2008 @ 03:57 AM
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Originally posted by Mdv2

Originally posted by Pjotr
In a sign that banks are looking beyond Asian and Middle Eastern investors for help, Dutch-Belgian bank Fortis NV is tapping Russian billionaire Suleiman Kerimov for a €400 million, or about $630 million, capital injection, according to people familiar with the matter.



It's ironic that Dutch financial tv mentions this, however, they fail to mention the warning of the chairman.... censorship?


That struck me too! I have been scanning newsitems since it came up in the Financiele Telegraaf, it came up in de Tijd, but nothing on the radio or TV.



posted on Jun, 30 2008 @ 03:58 AM
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Originally posted by Agit8dChop
Personally, I look forward to it all.

I always dreampt about being part of WW2, or some figurehead statesman.

Atleast ill be able to enjoy the revolution of my time.

I say, crash the economy, send the US to war.. the quicker the better.

because it will give us real people time to rebuild after the fact, and build something so beautiful and wonderous.




really you dreamt of being part of ww2, which part was that, was it the part where your city was under siege and you ate family members or was it the bit where a concentration camp guard decided to play golf with your head and a sledgehammer

F**k me pink



posted on Jun, 30 2008 @ 04:09 AM
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Originally posted by SugarCube
I'm always wary of announcements such as this. I am not sure what his objective is in making such an assertion. Fiduciary economics relies on one thing and one thing alone... faith in the future market.

We buy shares so because we believe the price will go up and we can make a profit when we sell. We have faith in a currency because we believe that the net worth of a country is on the up.

Statements concerning collapse inevitably produce a collapse. Northern Rock in the UK is a prime example, tell people they have a chance of losing their money and lo, they start withdrawing it in droves, thereby producing the collapse that could have been averted.

I agree that we have to have transparency, however, is this statement an effort to cause collapse so that the market can then be corrected or, is it a bigshot trying to look clever without regard to the socio-economic impact?



True, BUT what strikes me is that guys like the Fortis chairman are not worried about the value of their stock (Fortis dived) because they say that "in volatile markets like this one, stockvalues mean nothing anymore" (quote from financial paper)
link article
He is of course saying that because he wants to point out that the value of Fortis stock is too low in regard to it true value.


", is it a bigshot trying to look clever without regard to the socio-economic impact?"

Bit of both, he HAD to come up with a very good reason for all the measurements tkane last week. Because normally this would mean that your company is doing very badly. His defense is: not my company but the outside world is going down...something he deducted out of meetings with big banks in the US. Somewhat proudly he is announcing Fortis escaped.

It seems that Fortis had trouble finding financiers for their needed 8 billion euros, because they even let the Libian statefund Lybian Investment Authority (LIA) buy new stocks of Fortis. A trustworthy source indeed
Besides that the Dutch ABP (pesionfund) came up with a portion.


[edit on 30-6-2008 by Pjotr]



posted on Jun, 30 2008 @ 04:35 AM
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Originally posted by SugarCube
I'm always wary of announcements such as this.

Statements concerning collapse inevitably produce a collapse. Northern Rock in the UK is a prime example, tell people they have a chance of losing their money and lo, they start withdrawing it in droves, thereby producing the collapse that could have been averted.

I agree that we have to have transparency, however, is this statement an effort to cause collapse so that the market can then be corrected or, is it a bigshot trying to look clever without regard to the socio-economic impact?



As well founded as your thinking is, and quite rightly too, I feel there may be a lot of truth behind what Fortis has come out with. I found a few more news articles from today (30th) and started a new thread on Australians leaving the UK.

It then dawned on me that there is a trend of 'bad money' reports going on so I listed several from ATS and found a few more fresh ones from news reports.
You can see them all here..
Escaping credit crunch



posted on Jun, 30 2008 @ 04:59 AM
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Originally posted by Britguy
Things just seemed to get a whole lot worse for the US Financial System:



business.theage.com.au...

Now that's gotta hurt!


Is this the rest of the worlds bankers getting a bit edgy and trying to rein in the US systems?


this would be hilarious to watch if it is true....
the US economy and financial system getting a intense audit.....
the US government itself is inauditable! Can't imagine what the banks are like.

and, well...
I don't think that the powers that be are intentionally bringing down the economic system. That might have been their plan at one point, but now....I think they have lost control. oh well...gotta get ready for work, so I can earn my paycheck (worthless piece of paper) so I deposit it into my bank account, which might be just as worthless! God, I love this world!!



posted on Jun, 30 2008 @ 05:47 AM
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Originally posted by Agit8dChop
Personally, I look forward to it all.

I always dreampt about being part of WW2, or some figurehead statesman.

Atleast ill be able to enjoy the revolution of my time.

I say, crash the economy, send the US to war.. the quicker the better.

because it will give us real people time to rebuild after the fact, and build something so beautiful and wonderous.



As much as I do not want to see things get bad, I know they will, and I agree 100%. This madness has gone on for too long now.

As far as this prediction goes, only time will tell, but I have been hearing more and more talk about economic collapse, and it would seem it is warranted.



posted on Jun, 30 2008 @ 05:47 AM
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I have never been very econ savvy. After reading through this, I wonder what the common man can do to try to insulate self against this event.

Does one address this concern with, or say, the banking institution they belong to (almost literally)? Do you try to pull your money out of the stock game, such as retirement savings, health savings? Or is the green 3 cent piece of paper with the 1, 5, 10, 20, 50 and 100 numbers printed on them going to still offer purchase power if this falters the way they are predicting?

Understandably, they are garnering investments to try to head off this beast, but if it turns out to be too little too late, me and my dogs would be in a sore position to maintain a surviving lifestyle without any means.

Note: I am not posting in fear, only in ignorance, since most of the economic speculation and stock market have never been a close study of mine.



posted on Jun, 30 2008 @ 07:50 AM
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Any one ever think this info was leaked to cause a panic? If enough word of this gets around a lot of people will begin pulling their money out of banks, before you know it their "predicted" crash happens, spurred by the fear of their statements! Panic was what caused the last depression in this country, if you were trying to start a second you would need a way to panic the populace into pulling out all their money. Me thinks something stinks here!!!!



posted on Jun, 30 2008 @ 09:06 AM
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reply to post by Agit8dChop
 


I'm not sure whats is more sad - that the ATS doom and gloomers are now out in public advertising that they have been hoping/praying for a total catastrophe, or that they believe they can somehow build utopia out of it.



posted on Jun, 30 2008 @ 09:28 AM
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reply to post by ALightinDarkness
 


Just out of curiosity Brother.. you always say you will never believe the "doom and gloom" until you see a "peer reviewed and accepted" article..

Just wondering if you have one of those peer reviewed and accepted articles that implies the current Economic state is just another "cycle"?

Oh, and Agit8 .. pretty messed up dude. Me thinks you need to worry about Australia and leave how we will fair an economic crash in America alone. We needn't hear anymore disturbed and rather sickly fantasies of yours..



posted on Jun, 30 2008 @ 09:52 AM
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reply to post by Rockpuck
 


I've found a few that document economic cycles and explore how economic hysteria is manufactured during election periods. Scholars rarely write on current/temporary economic events though (good or bad), as these have little meaning because the context in which they occur is similar enough to previously established patterns to not warrant any new research. As such, every recession I don't generally see a whole slew of articles about it, unless someone has made a finding that reveals a general pattern in how all recessions play out or has found out that the current recession is somehow different, or signals a paradigm shift.

As much of academia is a game to see who can first predict and plot out a paradigm shift, it would take only some evidence pin pointing economic doom and gloom to be written and accepted. There would be no hesitation to do it, economists would be chomping at the bit to be the first one out of the gates to correctly predict a economic change in a peer reviewed source.

Here are a few that document how recessions come in cycles, including the use of manufactured economic doom and gloom hysteria in most recession cycles:

Hamilton, J.D. 1989 A new approach to the economic analysis of nonstationary time series and the business cycle. Econometrica, 57(2): 357-384.

De Gregorio, J., P.E. Guidotti, C.A. Vegh. 1998. Inflation stabilisation and the consumption of durable goods. The Economic Journal, 108(446): 105-131.

Chauvet, M. 1998. An econometric characterization of business cycle dynamics with factor structure and regime switching. International Economic Review, 39(4): 969-966.

There is also a ton of literature from the public policy arena that goes into an enormous amount of detail about how federal government regime change, or the anticipation of such, spurns all sorts of political maneuverings to either manufacture doom and gloom or false hope.



posted on Jun, 30 2008 @ 09:56 AM
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reply to post by Agit8dChop
 


I cannot disagree with you more. You sir, have no idea of what you speak. Wishing disaster and ruin upon people - you should be ashamed of yourself.



posted on Jun, 30 2008 @ 11:05 AM
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What Agit8 is saying is exactly how I and many others feel about things right now.

I say.......Bring It On!!!

Bring on your financial collapse and your total control of everything and all of the people. Bring on your wars and your so called "Patriot Act" and your striping away of ALL of our rights. Bring it on!!!

Because it is the only way the masses are going to wake up............there is no other way...........period.

I am sorry if some people here don't like to hear that, but it is the way you start feeling when you try and talk about important things like this with friends and family and loved ones, and they push you away and don't want to hear it and they don't care. Even when your own Wife will not let you talk about this kind of stuff........its forbidden, off limits and totally unacceptable to talk about important things like this. My wife would just rather go and sit on the couch and watch "soaps"
and live in a fake boring mundane reality.

Trust me, it needs to all happen........its the only way people will wake up. I am just so sick and tired of waiting.........every day I hope that I will wake up the next morning and it will happen, only then will the masses truly awake.



posted on Jun, 30 2008 @ 11:08 AM
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reply to post by housegroove23
 


In other words, you want a world where everyone believes with your narrowly defined worldview, and are hoping for absolute disaster in order to mold a world where everyone agrees with you. Lovely.



posted on Jun, 30 2008 @ 11:11 AM
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There is one flaw in the theory that the people with power and money will still be around to reclaim power when the dust settles and that question is who is going to enforce their policies for them no one they ruined it once and people don't buy into bad situations a second time..

My guess is that like a lot of people on here I am comfortable not wealthy but comfortable this is not to say that I don't worry about money sometimes.

In being just comfortable do you really have that much to lose I mean if you have nothing no jets no half million dollar cars if you just live a comfortable life do you really have anything to lose other than being able to go to the store and buy groceries and basically creature comforts.. well beside the Net (oh no)

I guess my point is these guys say the situation is terrible and for them that may be but they have jet payments mansion payments limo payments and they are accustomed to that life so of course to them it is terrible they can't pay there bills anymore.. as far as terrible for you and me I am not convinced of this yet.

So before you panic for your own life and money remember that these people live a life that can't be sustained with the money I make or the money you make so I would try to base things a little closer to home..



posted on Jun, 30 2008 @ 11:39 AM
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reply to post by geocom
 


This is not about money only. If the world economy collapses the price of food will further increase and faster as it currently does, resulting in shortages all around the world and hitting particularly hard in third world countries.

Prices of oil will further increase to over 200/300 USD, resulting in a major disaster for our economies. Supermarkets won't be supplied anymore, resulting is mass violence, hunger, and despair particularly in cities.

The Dollar will collapse, thus making place for a new American currency. (you better be sure they have their plans ready).

I am no firm believer of a NWO, however topics discussed at so-called NWO related organizations such as the Bilderberg group could become reality:

-population control
-united currency & government
-full control of population by the military and government.

I don't think most of you see the real consequences we will face.


[edit on 30-6-2008 by Mdv2]



posted on Jun, 30 2008 @ 12:44 PM
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Originally posted by jdl79
Any one ever think this info was leaked to cause a panic? If enough word of this gets around a lot of people will begin pulling their money out of banks, before you know it their "predicted" crash happens, spurred by the fear of their statements! Panic was what caused the last depression in this country, if you were trying to start a second you would need a way to panic the populace into pulling out all their money. Me thinks something stinks here!!!!


As far as I can see banks loose money when people panic. Some stockbrokers may win some. So all in all I don't think all these people are into a plan to cause panic. All this ad hoc behavior of banks show that they don't know anymore and are covering themselves under thick blankets of money. So they will know that whatever hits them, they will survive. And strangely enough that is in YOUR benefit, because that is what banks should do. Cover your money.

Stockholders do not like it because volatile behaviour of their base (the bank) makes them unsure and costs them money.

But to EASE THE PANIC i want to point out here that Badouin Prot, chairman of BNP Paribas claimed in an interview this sunday in the Italian newspaper La Repubblica that the crisis WILL DIE OUT in the second half of this year. So he must have other sources.

So we can all go to sleep now ...until the next person tries the panic button.


[edit on 30-6-2008 by Pjotr]



posted on Jun, 30 2008 @ 01:12 PM
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From the 17th of June

Morgan Stanley warns of 'catastrophic event' as ECB fights Federal Reserve

"We see striking similarities between the transatlantic tensions that built up in the early 1990s and those that are accumulating again today. The outcome of the 1992 deadlock was a major currency crisis and a recession in Europe," said a report by Morgan Stanley's European experts.

www.telegraph.co.uk.../money/2008/06/16/bcnecb116.xml

From the 19th of June

RBS issues global stock and credit crash alert.

The Royal Bank of Scotland has advised clients to brace for a full-fledged crash in global stock and credit markets over the next three months as inflation paralyses the major central banks.

"A very nasty period is soon to be upon us - be prepared," said Bob Janjuah, the bank's credit strategist.
www.telegraph.co.uk.../money/2008/06/18/cnrbs118.xml

From the 28th of June;

Barclays warns of a financial storm as Federal Reserve's credibility crumbles.

US central bank accused of unleashing an inflation shock that will rock financial markets, reports Ambrose Evans-Pritchard

Barclays Capital has advised clients to batten down the hatches for a worldwide financial storm, warning that the US Federal Reserve has allowed the inflation genie out of the bottle and let its credibility fall "below zero".
www.telegraph.co.uk.../money/2008/06/27/cnbarclays127.xml

Businesses going down..
30th June;


John Charcol axes 25pc of staff as mortgage market dries up.

John Charcol, one of the UK's leading mortgage brokers, has become the latest victim of the slowing housing market after slashing its workforce by 25pc.

Chief executive Ian Kennedy has also left the company with co-founder John Garfield rejoining the executive management team as chairman.

www.telegraph.co.uk.../money/2008/06/30/cmcharcol130.xml


Trinity Mirror shares slump as slowdown hits advertising.

Trinity Mirror, the owner of the Daily and Sunday Mirror newspapers, has become the first British media company to warn on profits as the slowdown in the UK economy hits advertising revenues.

The company told shareholders this morning that May and June has seen a "marked" drop in advertising revenues and that this is likely to continue for the rest of the year.

www.telegraph.co.uk.../money/2008/06/30/bcntrin130.xml




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