Will 11/4/2008 Be US History’s Most Significant Day Since 12/7/1941?

reply to post by Justin Oldham

Let's take a new look at something Xpert11 said. I'd have to think about. What is the generational equivelent to the Lusitania?

Generational equivalent of the sinking of the Lusitania? For me that’s a tough question. I have already thanked Mr X11 for getting me off the dead center by offering the Lusitania as equal to the Nine Eleven Event. I still hold to that POV. Would or do others? RMS Lusitania was a British luxury ocean liner that met a disastrous end as a casualty of the First World War when she was torpedoed by the German submarine U-20 on May 7, 1915. 1,198 dead and 761 survivors. Note that this tragedy did not bring the US into the War. After German submarines sank seven U.S. merchant ships and the publication of the Zimmerman telegram Wilson called for war on Germany, which the U.S. Congress declared on 6 April 1917. Note that we started that war the old fashioned way, by a Declaration fo War by Congress! It was not one single catastrophic event that launched the War. en.wikipedia.org...

Wilson, running in 1916 on a “Keep Us Out of War” campaign pledge, was inaugurated March 4, 1917, and by April 6, barely 32 days later, we were at war!!! Aside: In 1940 FDR ran on a similar promise and he was inaugurate January 20. The war began in earnest on December 7. About 11 months later.

Here we are in 2008, URGING the candidates to make PROMISES what they will do in foreign affairs over which we have next to NO control. Nixon ran in 1968 on the promise “He had a plan” which voters took to mean “a plan to END the war.” He did not. He had no plan. He did not end the war. But Nixon might ask, “Who gives a dam? I was reelected in 1972!” Ford ended the Vietnam War in 1974. It began oh so very smallish in 1958 under Eisenhower. 600 advisers, a MAAG unit, sent to Saigon.

Why do we do that? Why do we ask candidates to LIE to us just to make us FEEL good?

So do you suggest I am reduced to arguing the Zimmerman telegram was the equivalent to the Nine Eleven Event?


Post Script: An Historical Oddity. Jeannette Rankin (1880 – 1973) was the first woman to be elected to the United States House of Representatives. A pacifist and populist Republican, she is the only woman to be elected to Congress from Montana. She also holds the unlikely distinction to be the only Congressperson to vote AGAINST both America’s entry into World War One (1917) and again, to vote NO on America’s entry into World War Two (1941). Now let's really RAISE the odds consider this: She was elected to only TWO terms in Congress. 1917-1919, and 1941-1943. She's definitely a one-off. Can any of you Mayan calendar people find her in the calendar?

The Zimmermann Telegram was a coded telegram dispatched by the Foreign Secretary of the German Empire, Arthur Zimmermann, on January 16, 1917, to the German ambassador in the United States of America, Johann von Bernstorff, at the height of World War I. On January 19, Bernstorff, on Zimmermann's request, forwarded the Telegram to the German ambassador in Mexico, Heinrich von Eckardt.

Zimmermann sent the Telegram in anticipation of the resumption of unrestricted submarine warfare by the German Empire on February 1, an act which German High Command feared would draw the neutral United States into war on the side of the Allies.

The Telegram instructed Ambassador Eckardt that if the United States appeared likely to enter the war he was to approach the Mexican government with a proposal for military alliance. He was to offer Mexico material aid in the reclamation of territory lost during the U.S.-Mexican War, specifically the U.S. states of Texas, New Mexico, and Arizona.

On February 19, "Blinker" Hall, the head of [British decoding] Room 40, showed the Telegram to the secretary of the U.S. Embassy in Britain, Edward Bell. Bell was at first incredulous, thinking it was a forgery, then enraged.

At first, in the United States the Telegram was widely believed to be a forgery by British intelligence. This belief, which was not restricted to pacifist and pro-German lobbies, was promoted by German and Mexican diplomats, and by some U.S. papers, especially the Hearst press empire. However, on March 29, 1917, Arthur Zimmermann himself admitted that the Telegram was genuine. en.wikipedia.org...

Genuine it was but realistic it was not. Instead it was the maximum possible diplomatic blunder! It stands alone! Mexico did not have an army or navy worthy of the name. Gen. Pershing had chased Mexican rebel-robber Pancho Villa across northern Mexico in 1915 when the Mexican Army or Police were unable to apprehend him. Mexican President Venustiano Carranza formally declined Zimmermann's proposals on April 14.

[edit on 7/21/2008 by donwhite]

Originally posted by Justin Oldham
What is the generational equivelent to the Lusitania?

I am wary of making such comparisons between eras but I will play along for the sake of discussion . Due to the fact that I disagree with don nothing stands out in the span of my so far short life time . Now bearing mind changes to the political geographical landscape and the changing nature of warfare what stands out from my father generation is the Gulf of Tonkin Incident. LBJ and co were itching to become entangled in the jungles of Vietnam .

Sure the comparison is far from perfect because the Gulf of Tonkin Incident solely involved military forces and there was never 90 - 100% of public support backing the Vietnam War .

Well that is my 10 cents .

What do you think about he significance of the Obama speech in Germany? Was he wise to stand in teh shadow of JFK?

reply to post by Justin Oldham

. . do you think about he significance of the Obama speech in Germany? Was he wise to stand in teh shadow of JFK?

A B S O L U T E L Y!

As I menntioned on another thread, I hope Obama does not do so well it is perceived as overkill! McCain who just returned to the US of A from Columbia and Mexico is looking SMALL to me by criticiziing Obama for going out of the country. That disingenious remark along with McCain's endless reference to the SURGE makes him look limited in hiw own campaign. He had 10 days to say something or anything useful without opposition but instead he choose the SMALL cheap route of bad-mouthing his oppoent. Look out Fall Campaign. McCain's going to get down and dirty!

Hey, we Dems do not think for one minute Obama is JFK Jr. JFK was white. But if Obama stays on his message, and McCain goes from one wallowing in the tears because Obama won't congratulate McCain for the SURGE, McCain will be a footnote in history. Talk abut a single issue candidate!

Uhh, Sorry Big John, but one of the first lessons you learn in statistics, is correlation is not causation.

[edit on 7/26/2008 by donwhite]

It's off-topic, but I will bite. Nobody wants to say that we are actaully Nation Bilding over there. The war...such as it was...ended a long time ago. What goes on in Iraq today is Nation Building. Not even Obama wants to say that.

reply to post by Justin Oldham


The impression I have gotten about Obama is that if elected he would be like Clinton in the sense that he would be more popular overseas then on the home front . Who knows Obama may just inspire people that there is a better tomorrow if they stick with him . Concerning Iraq the security situation has improved but not enough to allow what was seen in post war Germany and Japan. Even if Nation Building is able to take place in Iraq it would be ineffective without reforms because most of the aid that has been allocated to Afghanistan has been spend on contractors rather then building basic infrastructure.

reply to post by Justin Oldham

Nobody wants to say that we are actaully Nation Building over there. The war... such as it was... ended a long time ago. What goes on in Iraq today is Nation Building. Not even Obama wants to say that.

Keen observation, Mr J/O, but I expect no less from you. And therein lies the crux of the killing and counter-kiling. America - self-proclaimed - Land of the Free and Home of the Brave, is fighting desperately to ESTABLISH a hand picked lackey regime that will kowtow to US "interests!" Old 18th century British colonialism wrapped in 21st century jargon - "spread democracy and our freedoms" and all that crapola! All Iraqi "eligible" candidates were carefully vetted before the frist Iraqi election.

For the Iraqi man on the street it is BUSINESS AS USUAL. Foreigners in league with native born turn-coats are LOOTING the country of its natual resources for the profit of overseas multi-nationals. Say British East India Company re-born. Ten tons of "War on Terror" propaganda hits the American public every day. Keep the home-folks in the dark! (We are doing the same thing in Afghan).

Now you KNOW why we can't FIND Osama bin Laden. He is TOO valuable to the Krystal - Wolfowitz - Fife - 2Bushes - Reagan Neo Con scheme to RULE the world. I predict it will someday be known as the GRANDEST CABAL before you guys die.

Long Live A Free Iraq! Drive the US Colonialists OUT! Viva A Free Afghan!

[edit on 7/28/2008 by donwhite]

As a historian, I think that the failed exit strategy in Vietnam does bear some resemblance to the failed exit strategy for Iraq. Ouch.

I am not aberican myself but I believe it does not really matter who is going to be the president of US as the real power stays in the hands of other people like Dick Chenny..

For many reasons, which have been talked about in other threds, I am concerned about the next Presidency. No matter who it is, we are all of us in for a lot of trouble. Tostay on tpic, I am wondering what the next big generational events will be. Any ideas?

reply to post by Justin Oldham

For many reasons, I am concerned about the next Presidency. No matter who it is, we are all of us in for a lot of trouble. To stay on topic, I am wondering what the next big generational events will be. Any ideas?

All the pertinent numbers - unemployment - part-time workers - layoffs - more bank failures looming - Fannie Mae and Freddie Mack are a $3 - $5 t. threat just waiting to happen. GM had the 3 rd largest quarterly loss. The top 4 car makers in the US - GM, Ford, Toyota and Honda - all reported sales declines in double digits for July.

We are getting closer to an economy that TANKS. The last time this happened our leadership was wise enough to PRIME THE PUMP by hiring unemployed people to build things the country needed. WPA. Works Progress Administration. Schools, hospitals and post offices. Not a city in America did not get one or more of these projects but lampooned by Republicans as MAKE WORK projects. As if that was a mortal sin?

PWA. Public Works Administration. Built dams, park facilities and the Timberline Lodge at Mt. Hood, for example. Still in service because it was built RIGHT. CCC. Civilian Conservation Corps. Mostly city boys put into the country for the first time in their life. Cleaning dead branches out of forests, making hiking trails, and building look-outs. Required to send $25 of their $30 a month pay home. All they needed was furnished to them. For many families this was all the cash they would see for years. It helped.

I’m worried this time around the Federal Government will give the money to FAITH BASED and to PRIVATE CONTRACTORS to do the things that need to be done of the public, by the public and for the public. Perhaps FDR's single most vital contribution to the recovery was the Fireside Chats. Bush43 gives a radio talk once a week. I do not know anyone who listens to him. Can the man we inaugurate in January, 2009, speak to the people with enough confidence to arouse their courage sufficient to carry them through the crisis and to make them feel someone up there does in fact care about me?

[edit on 8/1/2008 by donwhite]

According to Federal statistics, the U.S. national unemployment rate is now six percent. The potential exists for us to see nine percent by the end of this year. like it or not, Americans will be reminded of the slide towards Depression. AS long as we're talkingabout significant events, let's talk about the potential for another stock market crash. Couldwe see the generational equivelant to 1929?

reply to post by Justin Oldham

like it or not, Americans will be reminded of the slide towards Depression. AS long as we're talking about significant events, let's talk about the potential for another stock market crash. Could we see the generational equivalent to 1929?

Well, I hope not. It fell from 11,000 to 7,000 in 2001. And remember it had started its slide before the Nine Eleven Event. After Bush43 busted the bank. Other than the 6 shares of Harley Davidson which was ONE share I bought in 1999 as part of a savings plan that did not materialize. So I will not be effected directly. But as and if the DJIA sinks deeper, it will have a ripple effects on many things important to me.

The 1929 Crash was blamed in large part on the 5% cash liquidity requ8ied to buy stocks. Of course, had there not have been "on the cuff" buying, there would not have been a BOOM from which to CRASH. Joseph P Kennedy was put in charge of the newly revitalized SEC by FDR. Not out of love for each other for each man probably hated the other. FDR was always the pragmatist and he needed most a FRONT man to FIX the NYSE for the Big Spenders. When I was young, the required margin was 80%. Post War 2 I think it was lowered to 50%. Of course after 1980 the SEC was gutted as an enforcement agency. The NYSE sells "things' today that would have been found in violation of anti-gambling laws before 1980.

It's hard to say IF or WHEN it will collapse. I just hope we clean it up this time and work hard that we don't re-run this same hurtful "rush for greed" every 2 generations.

Originally posted by donwhite
It's hard to say IF or WHEN it will collapse. I just hope we clean it up this time and work hard that we don't re-run this same hurtful "rush for greed" every 2 generations.

Okay, let's work with this. In general terms, we seem to agree that today's stock market will tank. What does the modern equivelent of 1929 look like?

reply to post by Justin Oldham

Okay, let's work with this. In general terms, we seem to agree that today's stock market will tank. What does the modern equivalent of 1929 look like?

Gee! Got a day or two? I foresee unemployment up to 33%. Unemployment insurance is set up for 26 weeks. Where the per cent is above a predetermined value, 13 additional weeks can be added. It would require an Act of Congress to extend it past that 39 weeks. Unemployment insurance is usually based on the state’s average weekly wage. In FL that might be $600 but in Alaska, maybe $800. UI is funded by a basic tax on employers, often 3.2% of covered wages. The states keep 2.8%. The states are required by law to put it all into US Treasury indicia of debt until needed. One-half of a percentage point goes to the Federal UI Trust Fund. Which like all trust funds, is only full of IOUs. There is probably $1t. to $2 t. out there “obligated” to UI. One more reason the 2001 Bush43 tax cuts are killing the country. Say hello China!

I see a Federal home mortgage MORATORIUM for 24 months. I see a Federal tax CREDIT to any small business - under 100 employees - worth 50% of wages paid to any new hire kept on more than one year. Up to say, the average state weekly wage. I see the estate tax raised back to 50% on estates over $10 million. I see an excess profits tax on businesses of 20% to 50% of profit more than the average over the previous 5 years. I see a limit on executive compensation and that to be based on performance. I see ALL sales taxes suspended for 24 months.

I see the Federal government deciding what the states are to do in order to 1) re-employ its citizens, and 2) to employ the unemployed in public service projects. Coordinated and generally equal opportunity must be in place around the country and we don’t have time to let 50 state legislatures MUCK it up.

That’s not all but this would be a start.

On the PLUS side. 1) This could be the FINAL demise of the states as independent units and their reduction to mere zip codes. Ending what we started in 1861. 2) The burial of the Reagan Doctrine.

PS. Three phrases—Black Thursday, Black Monday, and Black Tuesday—are used to describe this collapse of stock values. All three are appropriate, for the crash was not a one-day affair. The initial crash occurred on Black Thursday (October 24, 1929), but it was the catastrophic downturn of Black Monday and Tuesday (October 28 and October 29, 1929) that precipitated widespread panic and the onset of unprecedented and long-lasting consequences for the United States. The collapse continued for a month. en.wikipedia.org...

[edit on 8/4/2008 by donwhite]

reply to post by Justin Oldham


That is hardly an impossibility considering the credit crunch , Oil prices , consumer economy built on credit and as Don as pointed since 9-11 the majority haven't made sacrifices like our grandparents and/or parents did . Currently the creditors never really get paid because people use credit to pay for there existing bills . This cant go on . As for the lack of sacrifices post 9-11 there were no mass enlistments and the will to push on when the going got tough didn't last long at all . Relearning the value of sacrifice may not be a bad thing . Sure 9-11 as an event is comparable to Pearl Harbour but the response hasn't been .

Has anybody noticed that the same people who cry foul at the use of mercenary's in war zones also oppose the draft ?
You could say that is having your cake and eating it to .


[edit on 7-8-2008 by xpert11]

reply to post by xpert11

. . as Don has pointed out since 9-11 the majority haven't made sacrifices like our grandparents and/or parents did . . Has anybody noticed that the same people who cry foul at the use of mercenary's in war zones also oppose the draft? You could say that is having your cake and eating it to.

Not really. On having cake. Let’s remind ourselves of our recent past. World War 2. 1939-1945. The US population in 1940 was 140 million. From 1941 to 1945 the US drafted 16 million men. 11.42% of the population. 22.8% if you consider only males. 44.8% if you drop to under 40. 88% if you eliminate under 18. Yes, these are rough numbers but not too far off to be considered.

On September 2, 1945, when Japan signed the surrender documents in Tokyo Bay onboard the USS Missouri, the US had 13 million men in uniform. We had already discharged 3 million men for various reasons. Wounded. Ill. Unsuited for service. Needed on the home front. Had earned enough points to get out primarily by serving on the front lines. America was not like ancient Rome or the Germans, Japanese and Russians. You did not serve 20 years or until you die. We spread the PAIN around. People conceived the draft and military service as being FAIR. The US had 420,000 KIA in War 2. 2.6%.

Why did our draft work so well? First, because almost everyone between 18 and 34 was drafted. All able-bodied men. FDR’s 2 eligible sons went into the Armed Forces. An older cousin of FDR was KIA. Ambassador Joe Kennedy’s oldest son Joe, was KIA. Jack Kennedy served heroically. Many Congressmen joined the Armed Forces. My aunt had 4 sons. She saw all 4 of them serve in the Armed Forces. 2 Army, 2 Navy. Two other aunts had 1 son each and both of those sons were in the Armed Forces. Yes, there were draft dodgers, but they were disdained by the general public and were few in numbers.

Second, and I deem this absolutely the SECRET of success of the WW2 draft, LOCAL draft boards. My city of Louisville with a population of 300,000 had 50 draft boards. Neighborhood boards. On average, one board for every 6,000 residents. A board was made up of 3 people. Two were chosen from the neighborhood as respected and accomplished people who commanded respect in that neighborhood. Doctors, lawyers and merchant chiefs made up the Boards.

The third member came from “DOWNTOWN” and was a bureaucrat who knew the draft laws. He might sit on 5 boards, one meeting every day of the week. Every man of the proper age was first given a physical examination and a criminal background check. The Army is NOT reform school. Any man who wanted could appeal his classification to the local Board. Often his case would be heard and decided at the next meeting - held once a week in the evening in the local library or other public building. If still dissatisfied, a second appeal was offered to the State Registration Board. My vital point is the draft was administered locally by local people and mistakes could be corrected quickly and at no cost to the parties involved.

Back to War. Pre-war isolationist spokesman Charles Lindbergh, “Lucky Lindy - the American Eagle” - begged to be allowed to join the Army Air Force. Permission was denied. At his own expense he traveled to the South Pacific and is said to have flown several missions in a P38 squadron and may have had one shoot-down before W-DC found out and ordered him back to the US. It is said he gave invaluable advice to the US airmen who shot down Admiral Yamamoto’s plane, killing him.

I was subjected to the third draft law of the 20th century. It was known as the UMTS - Universal Military Training and Service Act. Passed by Congress in early 1951 after the 1950 start of the Korean War. Every able-bodied man owed his country 8 years of service. Any combination of active duty and reserve duty would meet that requirement. I chose 4 and 4 but I could have had 2 and 6.

By the end of 1951 the front lines in Korea were stagnated and would in July, 1953 become the DMZ - Demilitarized Zone - separating the North Koreans and Chinese from the South Koreans and Americans + other UN forces. And then the troubles with the draft began. By 1960 our population was 179,323,175. 1970, 203,302,031. 1980, 226,545,805. 1990, 248,709,873.

After the Korean War ended - 1953 - the US began to shut down its military forces from the 3 million reached during the Korean War. By 1960 we had dropped to fewer than 2 million men and now women under arms. But now Vietnam was looming on the short horizon.

If we take age 75 as the life expectancy, and arbitrarily allot an equal number of people to each year of age as draft eligible, disregarding the females. Then men only from age 18 to 29 amount to 5.5% of the whole population in 1960, about 10 million draft eligible men. By 1970 that number had grown to 11.2 million men. By drafting for the Army and Marine Corps, enough men (like me) will volunteer for the Air Force and Navy to keep those branches manned with volunteers. The Army (1.2 million) and the USMC (300,000) would do the “heavy lifting” in the Vietnam War. Many AF types (like me) would be stationed in Thailand (F4s and F105s) or on Guam (B52s). Fighting for my country but sleeping on clean sheets!

So the problem with the draft was, how do you get 750,000-1.5 million men a year out of 10 million eligible? And make it FAIR! Answer: We did not. We let the rich and famous OFF the hook. College deferments. We let the SMART off the hook. Rhodes scholars. We let the HONKY-TONK boys off the hook, the Air National Guard, 6 months active duty in state-side training followed by 7 years of 3 days a month Guard duty. From Friday at 6 PM to Sunday at 4 PM equal THREE days! WoW!

America’s National Guard is unique. In peacetime each state’s guard is under the state Governors. He is the commander in chief. Who is admitted into the Guard, who is promoted in the Guard and who is transferred in the Guard is in the province of the 50 state governors. The Federal government PAYS and the state governments PLAY.

Dan Quayle and George Bush had no trouble at all getting into their state’s National Guard. Bumping them to the head of the line, the governors (IN and TX) made room for them. Networking that's called. Bush Jr had no trouble transferring from Texas to Alabama. Both governors were friends of Bush Sr. And in the Bush Jr case, if he goes AWOL or fails (refused?) to take a flight physical - or refuses to show his pilot's logbook - who is going to initiate court martial proceedings? That task would fall to the squadron commander but if that captain or major wants a FUTURE in the Guard that would be a very HUGE and exceedingly dumb mistake.

So the public lost confidence in the draft. That was for the poor and black. Instead of fixing it we went to a volunteer Armed Forces which was a grand mistake. IMO. We did not want to face what to do with 10 million young men in uniform. We took the CHEAP way out!

We may have FOUNDED our own PRAETORIAN GUARD. Only time will tell.


[edit on 8/7/2008 by donwhite]

Don for the sake of discussion I have Question for you .

Do you think that it is possible to have a draft without the majority of the loop holes you described and with local draft boards ?

Cheers xpert11 .

reply to post by xpert11

I have Question for you. Do you think that it is possible to have a draft without the majority of the loop holes you described and with local draft boards? Cheers xpert11.

Y E S. I think almost anything is possible. You already know why I distrust an all volunteer armed forces. Army, Navy, Air Force and Marine Corps. In our Revolutionary War 1775-1783, we used conscripted militias by states, that is, the Continental Congress called upon the 13 colonies to send a certain number of troops. The regular army was very small. 5,000 to 10,000. It was joined by militias as the regular army moved from state to state. Usually in about equal numbers. That system proved almost unworkable by the way so don’t think much credit for winning the war is due to the militias. Credit for winning should go 50% to the regular Army, 40% to the French Army and 10% to the 13 militias. Combined.

We relied on a very small standing regular army until the Civil War of 1861-1865. The North (Union) drafted about 1.5 million men. The South (in rebellion) drafted about 500,000 men. After the rebellion was put down we returned to a small standing army used primarily to defeat the last of the Western Plains Indians. Ethnic cleansing? Or genocide? Many solders were blacks and were called “Buffalo” soldiers by the Indians because buffalo are black or dark brown. Segregation by race in the army did not begin until the 1896 Supreme Court case, Plessey v. Ferguson, which held that “separate but equal” met the Constitutional requirement of equality under law. The law in America until 1954. Jim Crow.

We had a mix of regular, draft and militia in the Spanish American War 1898-1900 but that worked only because Spain was decrepit. Spain began its descent into second class status after the failed attempt of 1588 to conquer England for the Pope.

We drafted 3 million men in World War 1. About 1.5 million were actually in France when the November 11, 1918 Armistice was signed. By 1939, our Army was down to 130,000 and that included the nascent air corps just renamed from Signal Corps. FDR instituted the draft in 1940 after the election, him running on the STANDARD promise to “keep us out of war.” We got off to a slow start despite Hitler in Poland (1939) and Japan in China (1937). At that time the Occidental world paid little attention to the Oriental world. Racial superiority and all that you know. Mistaking technology for superiority.

During the Great Depression we instituted the CCC - Civilian Conservation Corps - but in part due to the incessant harping by the Republicans that the CCC was FDR’s version of Germany’s “Hitler Youth” and slightly improving economic conditions, the CCC was abandoned by 1941. I think the most it numbered was about 300,000.

We have tried the Peace Corps under JFK and the VISTA - Volunteers in Service to America - under the Clinton and Bush43 administrations. That program was still-born due to Reagan and Newt Gingrich. It is still out there but I doubt if it numbers 50,000. Republicans 'single hate' anything the Federal government does but they 'double hate' anything that benefits the poor. This is due to the Republicans extreme devotion to Jesus who said, KJV Bible: “For ye have the poor with you always, and whensoever ye will ye may do them good:” Mark 14:7 Which is never in this life! GOP theology: to eliminate the poor would contradict Jesus!

We have talked often about having persons 18-25 required to do 2, 3 or 4 years service to the country. The areas where they could serve usefully are limitless. Hospital aides; school aides; emergency work aides; national park guides; assist to the elderly; cleaning trash from the public domain; serving in industry as OJT - on the job training - to gain work experience and expertise. Working for Habitat Humanity type programs to renovate the 60% of American housing that is 50 years old or older.

With all the needed items furnished - food, clothing, shelter, health care - a stipend of $300 a month could be paid and savings of half - $150 - encouraged by matching it 2X or 3X to 1 payable on completion of their term of service. Pay a $300 monthly stipend for 2 year volunteers, $600 for 3 year volunteers - save half - and $900 for 4 year volunteers - save half - with the same 2X of 3X “bonus” on successful completion of the service period.

There is enough unskilled or semi-skilled work needing to be done in America to keep our youth busy for a decade or two. If we had the will to do it! This is one more example of the Red Blue Divide in America. Half of the Republicans in American would have catatonic fits if we adopted such a program! Say Hello to the undertakers!



Apology. I’m a bit sorry for being so ideological. But our world is totally ideologically driven. Every vote in any legislative body is driven by your concept of the place for government in your life. It is my contention that government can be as good a servant as we make it. In the wrong hands government can be a destroyer. And, if we knew more of our history we would not have the current mortgage meltdown that may end costing taxpayers several trillions dollars that somebody has somewhere. It is not fair to saddle our grand children with the consequences of our folly! Democrats did not propose or consent to the dismantling of the New Deal agencies that made our economic progress so certain that all too many people thought GOD did it. This is why I show Republicans no mercy. Hey, they have shown us NO mercy. Don W

[edit on 8/8/2008 by donwhite]

reply to post by donwhite


Don this may shock you but I agree with much of your thinking.

What does National Service and the US government playing a greater role in health care have in common ?

Answer: Opponents of both concepts resort to scaremongering . IMO the use of the word "draft " has a stigma attached to it from the Vietnam era . That and when the leaders of the anti establishment crowd think that they sense there flock waning they mention Iran and the draft in the same sentence .

National Service could encompass time spend in law enforcement , fire brigade , charity work as well as military service . While I don't necessary support National Service I would support a NZ version of the Volunteers in Service . IMO there are many kiwis who make use of such a organisation .
It makes sense to have a method that overcomes obstacles that get in the way of people volunteering there time . One such a volunteer organisation expected people to pay more then the total sum of my student loan in order for them to make there services available .