Granite v Copper, page 2

If you are going to claim that the pyramid builders didn't have advanced technology and then accordingly tow-the-line in regards to the official (and majorly flawed) story,

Hans: There is no "official story", it is best described as a consensus of opinion. You'd have to point out all these flaws because they seem to exist only in fringe literature.

then you also have to go along with the widely held (and official)

Hans: LOL you seem to be taking this anti-authority theme a bit to seriously, there is no monolithic Egyptological organization that put out "official" pronouncements.

belief that it was copper tools which were used to build the Giza pyramids.

Hans: Well that easy then, they didn't use copper tools, they did use arsenic copper (a type of bronze) for saws to cut a tiny portion of the bulk but the limestone was "cut" out using.....wait for it....rocks.

We'll forget the fact that only a handful of copper tools have ever been discovered from the alleged period the pyramids were built in - not bad considering the thousands of slaves were reportedly all using them.

Hans: they tended to be recycled due to their value but in this case the Egyptians used rock pounders to cut out the limestone. They didn't use slaves, the villages of the craftmen have been found near the pyramids.

Let's also forget the hundreds of anomalies the pyramids (especially the Great Pyramid) have which the official story either cannot or answer or will claim it was 'grave robbers'.

Hans: Fun thing to do, start another thread and list all of those. I haven't seen a coherent list of them.

Anyone who has inspected the inner corners of the granite coffer will be presented with something they cannot explain:

Hans: Particularly if they refuse to read the existing literature that has explained this for over 100 years.

Lets start with basics

from Petrie

"That the blades of the saw were of bronze, we know from the green staining on the sides of the saw cuts, and on grains of sand left in a saw cut.

Lots of example of the Egyptians cutting out material, to include granite

The inner corners are perfectly smooth, rounded and consistent.

.

Hans: So how did they do it then? Remeber they worked with Granite for over three thousand years, so did the Indians, Chinese, Greeks and Romans -did they all have power tools? They did it back breaking labor.



They cut the coffin and then used the labor intensive method of coring out the granite, breaking off the core off. It would take years of labor but then he was your god king.

Comment from a modern granite worker: You polish down to size using grit and water, and another slab of granite as the polishing quern. You use coarse grit until all the saw marks have been polished out, then you use fine grit until all the marks from the coarse grit are polished out, then you finish with tin oxide which will give you a mirror smooth finish. Provided your polishing block is reasonably flat, and you rotate the polishing block as you move it in circular paths over the block you are polishing, you will automatically end up with an absolutely smooth surface on both blocks in contact. There is nothing magical in achieving this precision, just years of apprenticeship and care.

Cutting internal shapes requires cores to be drilled out first, until just webs of granite are left which are knocked out. The rough surfaces are then taken down with pounding balls until the coarse polishing starts. Internal corners would be polished out using stone or wood blocks cut to the required profile to apply the abrasive grit - so they will all end up with exactly the same profile if that is what you require.

"The Giza Power Plant" by Christopher Dunn.

Hans: best to start/restart a thread on his "theory".

reply to post by merka

---

Great point.

The only thing i could say in response would be that i'm honestly not sure whether or not a horse-powered or hand-powered (or whatever-powered) device could exert the tonnes of pressure needed to cut granite.

Only a machine-powered device (like those we have today) could really do the job.

I'm almost convinced that hand-power couldn't exert sufficient force.

I would imagine that, for the granite coffer inside the Kings Chamber of the Great Pyramid at least, the cutting would have to be done INSIDE the chamber as the Ante Chamber (the small room connecting the Kings Chamber to the Ascending Passage) is smaller than the coffer itself.

If this is the case then could any kind of power (apart from hand-power) be used inside the Kings Chamber? Animal power might not be able to fit inside the chamber as it would need some kind of apparatus applying the tonnes and tonnes of pressure needed to cut the granite...

Not an expert here, but just a thought

reply to post by Hanslune

---

Don't mean for this to sound the way it will, but what do you mean there is no official story?

What are we told in school?

- We are told the Great Pyramid is a tomb (even though no mummies have EVER been found inside the Great Pyramid)

- We are told grave robbers plundered the pyramids of the treasure - mummies and EVERY trace of them included!

- We are told the 'slaves' used ramps and rollers to move the blocks into place and that they chiseled them into shape through the use of copper chisels.

That's the official story right there - the official story is whatever the mainstream believe - this is what people believe.


Now, the picture you provided of Egyptians using a hand drill of sorts, well i dont see it written anywhere that that technology was used to cut the granite boxes inside the pyramids... It does show them using such devices, but just not on the items in question.

They could never get the speed required to cut granite using such primitive tools.

Now, the comment from the modern granite worker.

Comment from a modern granite worker: You polish down to size using grit and water, and another slab of granite as the polishing quern. You use coarse grit until all the saw marks have been polished out, then you use fine grit until all the marks from the coarse grit are polished out, then you finish with tin oxide which will give you a mirror smooth finish. Provided your polishing block is reasonably flat, and you rotate the polishing block as you move it in circular paths over the block you are polishing, you will automatically end up with an absolutely smooth surface on both blocks in contact. There is nothing magical in achieving this precision, just years of apprenticeship and care.

Cutting internal shapes requires cores to be drilled out first, until just webs of granite are left which are knocked out. The rough surfaces are then taken down with pounding balls until the coarse polishing starts. Internal corners would be polished out using stone or wood blocks cut to the required profile to apply the abrasive grit - so they will all end up with exactly the same profile if that is what you require.

I could 'pull a skeptic' here and demand names, qualifications, pictures, factual references and so on, but i accept this testimony.

Unfortunately i am not a modern granite worker and so obviously cannot argue this. It seems to make sense but how am i ever supposed to argue it? I dont have access to a modern granite worker so am forced to go along with it.

The only thing i will say is that this explanation doesn't really explain how the corners are entirely consistent throughout. Smoothing by hand would, you would assume, create a varied and inconsistent finish.

Anyway, I think all this does is prove that in theory it appears possible. It doesn't convince me that this was used in the Great Pyramid itself.


I may take up that challenge and do a thread about the anomalies, could be interesting, but honestly i am not bothered right now - lazy Sunday n all.

But here is a quick list of interesting anomalies just to prove that there are many out there that shouldn't be forgotten.

- The decision to use granite as a building material in the King's Chamber - why make the job unnecessarily hard?

- The purpose of the four chambers above the King's Chamber, made of granite, which appear to serve no purpose at all.

- The manner in which the granite beams (of those four superimposed chambers above Kings Chamber) are cut. Perfectly smooth on three sides but unfinished, rough hewn with chunks missing on the top - why?

- The salt encrustations on the walls of the Queens Chamber.

- The rough, unfinished floor inside the Queens Chamber.

- The copper fittings found at the end of the terminated 'shafts' which extend diagonally from the Queens Chamber.

- The green stone ball, grapnel hook and cedar-like wood found inside the aforementioned Queens Chamber shafts.

- The bizarre Well Shaft that appears to have no known purpose except to connect the Horizontal Passage to the Descending Passage.

- The granite block found within the 'grotto' of the Well Shaft which appears to have no apparent reason for its placement.

- The notches cut into the Ascending Passage which are spaced evenly and purposefully and seem to have once housed important somethings.


Ok, so that will do. As you can see, even in a limited list, the mysteries are there, they are abundant, and they are important.

Originally posted by Hanslune
Hans: So how did they do it then? Remeber they worked with Granite for over three thousand years, so did the Indians, Chinese, Greeks and Romans -did they all have power tools? They did it back breaking labor.

The majority of this statement seems a little too misleading and generalized to be used in favor of your argument.

First: You mention, Hans, that they (the Egyptians) "worked with granite for over 3000 years." While this may be true it is misleading in the context of this argument because granite had been used on an immense scale right at the very early stages of the Egyptian civilization, like circa 3000 bc (or maybe earlier). So at this point you couldn't really say they had already been working with granite for over 3000 years. Although that's the intrigue here isn't it, because the manner by which these people worked those immense granite blocks as if they were blocks of soap seems like it should've taken that long to develop... I mean 5000 years after the fact and we still can't figure it out!

Second: You go on to say that " the Indians, the Chinese, Greeks and Romans" also worked with granite for over 3000 years... Is that a fact?? Could you reference that please? And from what point in time do you mean? Like from now or from 3000 bc, when the pyramids are said to have begun being constructed? And which Indians are you speaking of?

And there goes that Roman/Greek comparison again. These guys got their influence from the Egyptians... Power tools? Sometimes you have to wonder. However the Greeks and Romans did have iron tools and the wheel at their disposal which the egyptians aren't known to have had... Makes working hard and heavy stones a bit easier I'd imagine...

And can anyone really explain the drilling of granite using copper drill bits and a wooden bow?

Comment. Denys A Stocks did not confront a potential stone-working anomaly identified by C. Dunn in his The Giza Pyramid. It seems that the drill marks on the sides of the sarcophagus in the King's Chamber imply that the soft copper Egyptian drills apparently advanced about 500 times faster than possible with the toughest modern drills! There is something amiss here.

I'd say....

from here: www.science-frontiers.com...

Howdy Photon, long time no read

Yep, but they didn’t use it in an immense scale, they used mud brick for everyday building and limestone for most everything else. They used the same techniques for cutting and making granite for some three thousand years. Granite was a luxury item for them.

It was figured out (documented) about 120 years ago and to people who work with granite it’s no mystery at all. Only those who want to believe in mysterious things find it hard to accept. The exact technique is not agreed upon but the use of grit and manpower is the consensus.

en.wikipedia.org... The Indian built earlier but smaller temples, this one was built almost entirely of granite.

Iron tools can only just barely cut into granite especially the inferior iron used back then. Even with iron tools you need to use grit. Some think that the Egyptians might have obtained iron tools from the Hittites but that was probably wll after the pyramids were built.

reply to post by Hanslune

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Hans: No grinding down by hand will leave a smooth and consistent finish – you need to find a picture of these corners, I cannot find one either.

Hope these help...









Larger versions of these can be found here:
www.ancient-mysteries.com...


That top one looks pretty smooth to me....

edit to add picture. Perfectly smooth and precise corners worked in granite...

Have a look.

www.gizapyramid.com...



[edit on 27-7-2008 by PhotonEffect]

reply to post by Hanslune

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Yep, but they didn’t use it in an immense scale, they used mud brick for everyday building and limestone for most everything else.

Aah, but they certainly did Hans. Take the Osirion, the valley temple, the sphinx temple, and the Great Pyramid just to name a few instances where huge blocks of granite were used. So how do you mean they didn't use it on an immense scale?

It was figured out (documented) about 120 years ago and to people who work with granite it’s no mystery at all. Only those who want to believe in mysterious things find it hard to accept. The exact technique is not agreed upon but the use of grit and manpower is the consensus.

It is a mystery. The current explanations aren't quite adequate in fully explaining how this was accomplished.

en.wikipedia.org... The Indian built earlier but smaller temples, this one was built almost entirely of granite.

Oh, those Indians... But this temple was built around 1100 ad, 3000 years or so after the pyramids. Can't compare IMO, this temple is closer in age to our modern era then the AE's era at the time of the earliest temples and pyramids... different technologies and modes of transporting.

Iron tools can only just barely cut into granite especially the inferior iron used back then. Even with iron tools you need to use grit.

Makes you wonder how a softer copper could do it then. Oh yeah, just add sand. I remember reading that when D A Stocks conducted his experiments on AE stone cutting techniques that it took 4 workers 14 hours to cut a slit just 3 cm deep into a large piece of granite using the dry sand method. At this rate it would take days to produce just 1 block. Hardly efficient..... something doesn't add up.

Hanslune:

Originally posted by Hanslune
Hans: okay we’ll use your definition of “immense” LOL, even though the use of granite in construction make up far less than .005% of building in Egypt….

"far less than .005%"?? Where did you get that number from? Yes the Egyptians used granite in large quantities and on grand scales. Are you denying this? The first 16 layers of G3 are composed of granite. The Osirion once again; HUGE granite blocks make up the entire complex... There are many others as I know you're aware....

Hans: Not to those who look into it – what is not fully known are the exact techniques. What is known and not disupted is that they used hammer stones and grit.

Limestone maybe, but not granite. But I guess there are always 2 camps to every argument.

What is your take on these statements then Hans? ( from granite worker Franz Lohner)

1. Sawing granite with copper saws:
First I experimented with copper saws made from copper sheets of different thickness. I used soft, half soft and hardened copper sheets and made saw blades with different teeth (wavy, small teeth, large teeth). Then I tried to saw granite, it didn't work, the copper deformed. As an abrading medium I added quartz sand, then Corundum (a gem with a hardness on Mohs scale of 9) and even steel sand (made from steel grit and used to cut through concrete). But even after hours of work barley a scratch was visible on the surface of the granite block. In the same time and with the same effort I surely would have managed to split two or three blocks of granite if using the appropriate tools, ergo iron tools!

2. Drilling with a bow drill and copper bits:
Of course I also experimented with drilling. I built a simple Egyptian bow drill, as shown on several illustrations. After some experimenting I managed to find the right material for the sinew and determined the right tension to use. I used different wooden rods and even copper rods and also used different types of sand and mud. I added water, water and oil, milk and whey to emulsify the sands and prevent the drill bits from heating up too much. But as much as I tried, I didn't accomplish more than a slightly colored spot on the surface of the granite. Only when I changed to a chisel made from steel I managed to drill a couple holes into the granite.

3. Splitting granite with wedges:
I decided to try out an other technique attributed to the Egyptians - using wooden wedges soaked with water to cause the wood to swell and split the rock. I drilled holes and then put in dry wooden wedges and poured water on them so they would swell. But the wooden wedges didn't expand enough and didn't generate enough force to split the stone apart.

from here A very in depth and informative site.

Hans: I stated over 3,000 years – ah what technology did the Indians have that the Egyptians didn’t when cutting granite? I can think of only one – better iron and as we know iron cannot cut granite effectively.

Actually wrought iron AFAIK could be used to split granite. Everything else is pretty much ineffective for processing granite.

Hans: Because they didn’t use copper to cut it (restating again) they use grit and hammer stones. Bronze saws were used to work grit –the grit cut the granite.

This method probably worked for much softer limestone, but not with granite.... Hitting extremely hard stone with a hammer stone for hours on end? We're talking granite here remember... not efficient for the grand scale by which the stone was used in some locations...

Howdy PE

"far less than .005%"?? Where did you get that number from?

Hans: I estimated it just like you estimated that the total amount of granite use in Egypt equals "immense". I was taking into consideration all building done over a 3000 year period.

Limestone maybe, but not granite. But I guess there are always 2 camps to every argument.

Grind down anything with grit and muscle power, as long as you ahve enough time and muscle power. Granite also comes in different grade of hardness from 6-8 on the Mohr scale.

What is your take on these statements then Hans?

I've read that site before, he focuses on a split the rock versus cutting and he likes iron - but the Egyptians didn't get any/much iron until well after the pyramids were built. Spliting stone - excellent strategy.

Actually wrought iron AFAIK could be used to split granite. Everything else is pretty much ineffective for processing granite.

Really, you can do it pounders, wedges and fire too using the spalding effect.

Hitting extremely hard stone with a hammer stone for hours on end? We're talking granite here remember... not efficient for the grand scale by which the stone was used in some locations...

Hans: unfortunately for your great zeal the fact doesn't change you can grind with grid or hammer anything down and if you use diorite a stone which is harder than granite - guess what happens when you smash the two together? LOL

Here is the great abandoned obelisk, red granite. I've been to the site, most impressive.





Note the size of the side cuts next to the obelisk - made by chiseling or by hammer stones?







The basic shape of the obelisk is created by rows of workers pounding the shape on the rock with dolomite rocks, or dolostone, and creating the app. 1 meter (3 feet) wide shafts at each side of the obelisk-to-be. This is possible because the dolomite is even harder than granite.

Originally posted by Hanslune
The basic shape of the obelisk is created by rows of workers pounding the shape on the rock with dolomite rocks, or dolostone, and creating the app. 1 meter (3 feet) wide shafts at each side of the obelisk-to-be. This is possible because the dolomite is even harder than granite.

Real quick one here.

The unfinished obelsik... one question -

How did the dolomite rocks fit under the obelisk to cut it out (as would have occured had the piece been completed)?


The only answer for the way such obelisks could be cut is, in my opinion, Brown's Gas.

www.eagle-research.com...

The use of Brown's Gas would have turned the granite into a softer, almost 'butter-like' substance, leaving the job of 'scooping' away the granite to create the desired form.

This requires the use of electricity, hence advanced technology for their time.

Now before anyone says it, i know, there is only circumstantial evidence for the Egyptian's use of Brwon's Gas - i am merely suggesting it as one possibility JUST as likely as the others.

If you take a close look at the left hand side of the obelisk down the bottom of the gap.



What do you see? You see one thing with two equally likely explantions:

a) score marks from the dolomite stones;

or

b) 'scoop' marks where the granite has become soft and then been scooped out.


Now these are both equally likely explanations. Sure, dolomite balls have been found, brown's gas hasn't - but there is no correlating proof to show the dolomite balls were unquestionabley used for the purpose suggested.

My point? Accepted explanations hold just as much water (or just as little water depending on your perspective) as the more 'fringe' explanations....

Howdy Srsen

My point? Accepted explanations hold just as much water (or just as little water depending on your perspective) as the more 'fringe' explanations....

Hans: not really we have dolomite used all over Egypt for several thousand years, a similar technique was use by all other stone tool workers in ancient and less than ancient times. No evidence for the use of "brown's gas".

Brown's gas is just Oxyhydrogen and doesn't have the effect you describe to it. The scalloping of the stone is a result of percussion blows.



This is on Rapa Nui and shows how a Moai was carved out (much softer stone) they were just carve around the bottom too. There is one Moai in that quarry (at Rano Raruku) that is resting on a thin spine of stone having been cut out from below. Couldn't find a picture of that one unfortunately.

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