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Throw Jesus Off His Throne !

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posted on Jun, 28 2008 @ 02:22 AM
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reply to post by miriam0566
 
Where did I say Jesus Christ is Yahweh?




posted on Jun, 28 2008 @ 02:32 AM
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Originally posted by reject
reply to post by miriam0566
 
Where did I say Jesus Christ is Yahweh?



here.


Originally posted by reject
He didn't just have a divine aspect but was God who became man.


jesus was called the son of god for good reason. Yahweh is his father.

it makes sense that jesus would have existed before abraham since jesus is said to be the firstborn of all creation (first thing to be created) and god's masterbuilder (god may have been the arquitech (sp?) but he used jesus to create).

but jesus is not the god we worship.



posted on Jun, 28 2008 @ 02:34 AM
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reply to post by miriam0566
 
that doesn't say Yahweh, now, does it?



posted on Jun, 28 2008 @ 02:38 AM
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reply to post by jmdewey60
 
it isn't nebulous

Galatians 1:12

For neither did I receive it from man, nor was I taught it, but it came to me through revelation of Jesus Christ.
Clearly Paul understood Jesus Christ was no man.



posted on Jun, 28 2008 @ 02:55 AM
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reply to post by EricD
 

For your first question about the trinity, they can be found by looking at my posts, or those by Miriam.
Just click on our name and goto our profile and check "Posts" and you can find the threads.
----------------------
Here is an example of what I am talking about, as far as who is replacing Jesus.
From Wylie www.historicism.net...



The true Christ is god, therefore the Vice-Christ must claim to be God also. In the canon law the pope is
called God.( Decretum Gregorii XIII. Destinc 96, Can 7.) Again he is called "Lord and
God" (Decretales Gregorii IX., Tit. 7.) And again Innocent says in the decretals, speaking
of the Pope, :God because he is God's vicar." The cannon law and the decretals are called
by Romanist writers the pope's oracle, they are a true expression of the pontifical mind.
To the same effect the papal casuists say, "As Christ was God, he too was to be looked on
as God." The Sacrum Ceremoniale has the phrase, "The apostolic Chair is the seat of
God." "The Roman Pontiff" says the Decretum of Gregory, "not as mere man, but as true
God, reigns in the earth." (Daubuz, 581.)Sir Culling E. Smith, in a tour in Italy, found a book published 1794, with
the title: -"History of the Ancient Republic of Amalfi, dedicated to the Vice-god Benedict
XIII. With permission of superiors."( Decret. Greg. I. 7, 3.)


Without the dogmatic insistance of Jesus being God, none of this boasting would be possible.



[edit on 28-6-2008 by jmdewey60]



posted on Jun, 28 2008 @ 03:02 AM
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reply to post by jmdewey60
 
I take it you believe God Yahweh? He says Jesus Christ is God and commands he be worshipped.

Hebrews 1:6-8

And when he again bringeth in the firstborn into the world he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him. (7) And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels winds, And his ministers a flame of fire: (8) but of the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever; And the sceptre of uprightness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
Do you disagree with God Yahweh?



[edit on 28-6-2008 by reject]

[edit on 28-6-2008 by reject]



posted on Jun, 28 2008 @ 03:02 AM
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Originally posted by reject
reply to post by miriam0566
 
that doesn't say Yahweh, now, does it?


so then who are you talking about? the GOD almighty is Yahweh.



posted on Jun, 28 2008 @ 03:08 AM
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reply to post by miriam0566
 
Almighty God Yahweh calls Jesus Christ God and commands he be worshipped. Am I to take your word over His?



posted on Jun, 28 2008 @ 03:27 AM
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Originally posted by reject
Hebrews 1:6-8And when he again bringeth in the firstborn into the world he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him. (7) And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels winds, And his ministers a flame of fire: (8) but of the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever; And the sceptre of uprightness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

Do you disagree with God Yahweh?


not at all, but your misapplying that scripture.

[1] God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,

Talking about yahweh using prophets to relay his message

[2] Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

instead now he uses his SON (not himself) to relay his (not his son's) message. yahweh has appointed jesus heir of all things, also notes that it was jesus he used to create all things (god = archuitect, jesus = master builder)

[3] Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

who by looking like god (and providing an example for us) forgave our sins though his sacrifical death who after being resurrected sits on the right hand of yahweh (not sits above or is the right hand, but instead in a position of submission

[4] Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.

jesus was given immortality wwhich the angels dont have.

[5] For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?

jesus is better than the angels because yahweh said to only jesus, that he was his begotton and son (2 separate individuals with yahweh being the father)

[6] And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.

so yahweh put jesus on earth to preach his will and cleanse the world of adamic sin (verse 2 and 3 of this chapter) told the angels (not humans) to worship him

[7] And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.

yahweh is establishing authority

[8] But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

yahweh makes jesus king (using god as a title) like he said he would when he told isaiah and daniel

[9] Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.

because jesus was obedient and righteous, god anointed him

[10] And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:

talking about creation through jesus

[11] They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment;

immortality of jesus since this was written after his resurrection

[12] And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, and they shall be changed: but thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail.

people change like underwear, but you remain for ever

[13] But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool?

to which of the angels has yahweh said sit on my right hand and ill make your enemies your footstool? only jesus, his son

[14] Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?

the angels are ministers to heirs (jesus and the saints)



posted on Jun, 28 2008 @ 03:35 AM
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reply to post by reject
 


The Book of Hebrews is probably the wost to use to try to understand the Trinity.
It was, like the Title says, written to the Hebrews, who may have had a chance to understand it.
It is very convoluted and mixes in a lot of quotes of quotes and was geared towards a certain type of argument that we would not think of, in modern times.
The verse you quote is a quote itself from Psalm 45 "Your throne, O God, is forever and ever; A scepter of uprightness is the scepter of Your kingdom"
It was addressed to the King and in some translations uses the small g.
Hebrews wanted to show how the prophesies of David and his sons were fulfilled in Jesus.
We, as gentiles are not too concerned with this and do not need to be convinced to throw away our hopes of a new Messiah, like the Jews still look for.



posted on Jun, 28 2008 @ 06:49 AM
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reply to post by jmdewey60
 
Unbelievable! You are calling scripture convoluted. "God" doesn't mean God, it means king. "equality with God" & being "in the form of God" doesn't mean God. And you are calling Hebrews convoluted?

How about the passage I cited in Galatians where Paul clearly understands Jesus Christ is no man? How about Thomas being reaffirmed by Jesus when he calls him "My God?"

Jesus,himself, taught he was God

John 5:18

For this cause therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only brake the sabbath, but also called God his own Father, making himself equal with God.
You side with those who killed him.

God (Yahweh) commands he (Jesus Christ) be worshipped even by angels themselves.


[edit on 28-6-2008 by reject]



posted on Jun, 28 2008 @ 07:58 AM
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Originally posted by reject

Jesus,himself, taught he was God

John 5:18

For this cause therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only brake the sabbath, but also called God his own Father, making himself equal with God.
You side with those who killed him.


actually, if you read the scripture, your siding with the ones who killed, after all, they too thought jesus was calling himself god.

and you are ignoreing the fact that jesus himself clarifies this.

hate to say this, but your cherry picking. you pick one or 2 scriptures that make it sound like jesus is GOD but you ignore the rest of the gospels that say he isnt.



posted on Jun, 28 2008 @ 08:14 AM
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Originally posted by miriam0566

Originally posted by reject

Jesus,himself, taught he was God

John 5:18

For this cause therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only brake the sabbath, but also called God his own Father, making himself equal with God.
You side with those who killed him.


actually, if you read the scripture, your siding with the ones who killed, after all, they too thought jesus was calling himself god.

and you are ignoreing the fact that jesus himself clarifies this.

hate to say this, but your cherry picking. you pick one or 2 scriptures that make it sound like jesus is GOD but you ignore the rest of the gospels that say he isnt.
Jesus, himself, taught he is God.

John 10:31-38

The Jews took up stones again to stone him. (32) Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from the Father; for which of those works do ye stone me? (33) The Jews answered him, For a good work we stone thee not, but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God. (34) Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods? (35) If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came (and the scripture cannot be broken), (36) say ye of him, whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God? (37) If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not. (38) But if I do them, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father.
you side with those who killed him.

I leave you to your own devices. You are lost.



posted on Jun, 28 2008 @ 09:26 AM
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reply to post by reject
 


I am not talking about all Scripture, but the Book of Hebrews, in particular, is convoluted.( definition: intricate, complicated)
This book does not explain what it is doing, as it shifts from God Talking about David, to David talking about God, to David talking about his Son, to God talking to David about his son.
Some body, maybe only one person, was intended to read whatever was the original manuscript.
Everyone who has ever touched a copy of the original was in, over their heads and we end up with people coming up with distorted ideas of what it all means.
It is complicated and people try to just read it straight, with no understanding as to where it is going and where it came from and what point it is making.



posted on Jun, 28 2008 @ 09:54 AM
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reply to post by reject
 


Jesus claimed to be the Son of God.
His enemies took that as an opportunity to get a mob going to kill him.
Jesus answers by asking them about how it repeatedly, in the Bible, refers to certain people (Moses, Judges, Kings) as gods.
He seems to be asking them why, then, that men could be called gods, would it be so offensive for a man to be able to be the son of God.
Jesus was using the thing about gods to back up his argument about how his claim should not be taken as so outrageous.
He is only claiming for himself sonship, but the Jews who are against him are not interested in a calm discussion.
It is not myself and Miriam who are siding with the enemy.
We are happy to accept Jesus at his word.
The Jews took the words of Jesus and took them a step further to make it sound like he is claiming to be God.
That is not what we are doing.
Sorry for speaking for Miriam but I felt like I was being included in your post.


[edit on 28-6-2008 by jmdewey60]



posted on Jun, 28 2008 @ 12:26 PM
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In standard evangelical commentary, two texts from Paul’s writings are constantly used to teach the personal preexistence of Christ: Philippians 2:5-11 and Colossians 1:15-20. These texts are considered to be bulwarks of Trinitarian theology, expressing in some sense Christ’s status as Deity.
-----------------
. In Philippians 2:5, for instance, Paul declares he is holding forth the historical example of the man Christ Jesus (as in 1 Tim. 2:5), not some prehistoric example into which can be read ideas of personal preexistence. Can the same be said to be true of Colossians 1:15-20?...
... Verse 15 tells us that God’s “beloved Son” (v. 13, NASB) is the “image” of the unseen God. An image, of course, is a visual representation, the copy of an original. The very fact of using a word such as “image” suggests necessarily that there is a difference in identity between the copy and the original.....
...There is, however, in Scripture a further meaning to the term prototokos. Since the Greek word protos can mean either first in time or first in rank, the “firstborn” may be used to designate one who is honored with first or chief position, regardless of time of birth.....
...This foremost position as King of kings is a matter of appointment, not time of birth![5] These facts and this usage as to the word “firstborn” may well have much significance in helping us to understand how and why Christ can be called “the Firstborn of all creation” in Colossians 1:15.
... Moses had foretold that Messiah would be a prophet like Moses himself, whose word would have the force of law, demanding obedience (Deut. 18:15, 18, 19; Acts 3:22, 23). But what about his authority “in heaven”? Paul says that when Christ was raised from the dead and was set at God’s right hand in the “heavenlies,” his new position brought him to a status “far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come” (Eph. 1:21). Not only that, but “God placed all things under his feet” (v. 22). Colossians 1:17 echoes this, in saying that “in him all things hold together.” Col. 2:10 describes him as “the head over every power and authority.” God rewarded Jesus’ “obedience unto death” by highly exalting him and giving him the name which is above every name....
... All things cohere in Christ and provide a coherent meaning to the universe. He is the reason for it all, because he is God’s only-begotten Son, the perfect image of the Father himself! Another definition is “to have one’s proper place.” All things in the universe have their own proper place, designed by the Creator, YHWH, to be in perfect relationship and harmony with “the Son whom God loves” (v. 13)...
...Christ’s headship over the church is a frequent theme in Paul’s writings. Verse 18 declares that headship, and goes on to call him arche, “beginning” (KJV, NIV, NASB). This word also means “ruler, authority.”
Since his resurrection to bodily immortality and his being granted “all authority in heaven and earth” Christ is exalted by his Father to the highest place in the universe, next to God himself, and is given the highest name (Phil. 2:9). He can be described, therefore, as possessing the fullness of the Deity. How could his preeminence be emphasized more powerfully than this? But all of this is short-circuited and spoiled by Trinitarian notions and the teaching of Christ’s personal preexistence!



[edit on 28-6-2008 by jmdewey60]



posted on Jun, 28 2008 @ 12:37 PM
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Comment on above post:
I used up a lot of space there, so I am putting the necessary accompanying notes here.
COLOSSIANS 1:15-20 — PREEXISTENCE OR PREEMINENCE?
by William M. Wachtel
focusonthekingdom.org...
The article is about three times longer than the segments I posted.
I took some parts from each of his points to show what he covers in this article.
His arguments give some good background info on the whole controversy, in an easy to understand way.
I just want to put some of this Trinity stuff to rest and focus on what a horrible mess we on Earth have to live in, as a result of the adoption of this false theology of Trinity.
If you want to hold to this false philosophy, my advice is to kneel down and kiss the ring of your overlord.
I choose to have Jesus, as my Lord and King and representative of God, on Earth.



posted on Jun, 29 2008 @ 07:46 PM
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reply to post by jmdewey60
 



I just want to put some of this Trinity stuff to rest and focus on what a horrible mess we on Earth have to live in, as a result of the adoption of this false theology of Trinity.
If you want to hold to this false philosophy, my advice is to kneel down and kiss the ring of your overlord.
I choose to have Jesus, as my Lord and King and representative of God, on Earth.


I've tried to follow you on this thread, but I'm confused. Are you saying that Jesus is NOT God? IE: Nothing more than a man...?



posted on Jun, 29 2008 @ 08:21 PM
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Originally posted by miriam0566



Spiritual Anarchy! Believe not what you were taught, but what the creator has shown you.


what if god showed us the bible?


You know, I may actually be starting to like you.



posted on Jun, 30 2008 @ 12:18 AM
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reply to post by PreTribGuy
 


I am not sure exactly what is tied up in the person Jesus.
I am a sinful human and can barely understand the things of this world.
What business is it of mine, or any other human, to make this tremendous leap of logic and make a determination of God, with the resultant trinity doctrine?
I, for one, feel it more my obligation to accept something understandable, like the Messiah.
We have been given a Christ, by the name of Jesus.
Before Jesus, we already had God.
Did Jesus come to Earth to exalt himself, or to exalt God?
Jesus came to establish a Kingdom and give us a way to salvation.
Anything beyond that, is not the Gospel.
Now, go ahead and think whatever you want about all that theological stuff,When we go to Heaven, we can sort all that out. But what is important is what is right now and right here.

Now, if you want to, as a man, establish a corporation loosely based on a somewhat non-concise set of religious beliefs, first thing you want to do is codify all those beliefs.
What I believe is that in the process of setting up this corporation, certain things were arranged to be advantageous to the corporation.
If the CEO of the corporation can sit on the throne of Christ, all the better to get things done for the corporation.
The best way to do that is set it up for Jesus to be busy in Heaven, being God.

We are faced with an entity that tries to exert power over the world and does it in the name of God.
Everything it claims as its legitimacy and authority is exactly what is claimed for Jesus.
The CEO shifted Jesus up a notch and took his place.
This should tell you how desperately evil this corporation is, to set itself above God, Himself, and decide what order the Deities will be arranged in.
The end result is a man sitting on a throne claiming the power of God, on Earth.
What I say is to drop Jesus down a notch, to where God the Father placed him, after He raised him from the dead.
That place is King of the World.
HE is Lord, and we are right to acknowledge him as such.
The men who want to lord it over us have to be seen for what they are: frauds and usurpers.



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