Court Systems failing

reply to post by harvib


English is THE international language, especially of science and business, and by the way, all air traffic controllers and pilots around the world must speak English in doing their jobs, not the language of the country.

In the old days money helped. Now it is EVERYTHING. That really sucks for people that deserve a fair trial. Damn, can't believe that was me saying that. But honestly, cops are getting lazy and drunk with power. I know because I work with them. Some more so than others. But these days it seems bad.

I recently chatted with a woman, who works in civil courts.. she is trying to get moved to criminal. But, at civil level, she says they ALL lie...judge, police thier. Almost often, innocent people are going to prison, while the guilty perpitrator is still at large... she dosnt know why, it just happens. Prsecutors,police fudge evidence,as if someone has to pay. Only reason i can find, is cause thiers so many cases backing up, this is the only real way, to get things moving. She works in Brooklyn, NY. I had asked her, how can you work like that? She had complained to the state, state congress.... No one cares... typical of our leaders.
Sh also said, they basically told her, you gotta be a team player, or get out. This sounds like retail managemnt... its who yuo know, NOT whats done on the job..
Justice is blind afterall

As George Carlin once siad in concert, about saving the planet...
We want to save the planet, and we havnt even learned to care for one another yet? And we wanna save the planet?
Kinda fits in, under circumstances dosnt it.

So I have been following this thread, and just felt the need to throw in my two cents.

First, I am a legal immigrant and my personal problem with illegal immigrants is that they are undermining the system and legal immigrants. I think about the time, energy, and money it takes to gain and maintain legal status here, and then the illegal immigrants bypass all that, and get more benefits in the end. That said, part of the process involved in gaining legal status (not necessarily even citizenship) is showing a minimum level of english proficiency.

Also, I would like to note that I live in Arizona, so I am right in the middle of the crossfire. I have worked in restaurants, and most of the cooks/bussers/dishwashers are illegal. Even the fine dining or ethnic restaurants usually have a mostly illegal, hispanic kitchen staff. That being said, many of these immigrants are hard-working, good people who actually make an effort to learn English. I have seen firsthand how someone who cannot say more than "Hello" and "Goodbye" when they first arrive can within a year have a good grasp of the language if they make an effort to learn it. There are also many who do not have an interest in learning the language because 1) they don't have to since there are plenty of people catering to them and 2) they don't plan on actually living here for a long period of time. They come to the US for jobs, live in deplorable conditions, send their money back to Mexico with their families, and then after a few years move back and live a comfortable life.

I think the reason the language issue has become racialized is because Hispanic immigrants greatly outnumber the others, and it seems they tend to be the ones who are catered to the most. Case in point: nail salons. Many nail salons are owned and operated by Vietnamese or other East Asian immigrants. Often, the workers there are friends or family members of the owners who come to the U.S. specifically to work in these salons. In order to work these jobs, they must get their cosmetology or nail tech license, so their legal status must be confirmed. They also speak basic English, at the very least. They seem to grasp the concept that if you move to a country and want to be successful, you must adapt to their culture and language (although I support and encourage their right to maintain their own in their private household/lives). This seems to be in contrast to many Hispanic "illegal" immigrants who expect others to cater to their language and culture. I have a personal story that illustrates this point: I was working as a cocktail server and once had a guy motion me over. I went to get his order, only to find out he couldn't understand me and barely spoke english. After trying to get his order, he asked me if I spoke Spanish. I said "no" (I only know a little bit) and HE ASKED ME "WHY"?!? I don't understand why they expect people to learn their language and culture when THEY are the immigrants!

I also notice no one has said a word about how multiple languages effect the education system. Arizona's educational system is a mess, and instead of money going to provide more quality standards, it is spent on "English Language Learner" (ESL) programs for the vast number of children (immigrants or born to immigrants) who cannot speak English. This affects all pupils because resources are spent on these programs, which are targeted to children of illegal immigrants, instead of being used to benefit the entire school population. It is also unrealistic to expect every teacher to learn mulitple languages just so they can communicate with their students and student's parents.

Anyway, sorry for the long post, I just am annoyed at some of the posters who think that refusing to learn the official language is someone's right and has no effect on others. The court translators are a rather small example of a larger problem.

Welcome to America! NOW SPEAK ENGLISH!!!

I guess courts need to gear up for the bilingual situation. One aspect of this case involved not trial itself but the defence needing to communicate with 9 witnesses who only spoke spanish. Each time he had to have a translator on hand for that. All this makes the system even slower. It is likely to lead to holding defendents longer and thus the need for more jails.

This is not about giving benefits to the guilty, it's about protecting the innocent.

This might come as a shock to some but not everyone taken to court is guilty. If you don't have translation services, proving your innocence is pretty much impossible. All civilized countries recognize this and provides the services needed for a fair trial. Wether someone should learn one or another language has nothing to do with it.

Why anyone would argue to make their country less civilized eludes me.

reply to post by gekko


Perhaps because when people emigrate to another nation and refuse to learn the language, it leads to division, and eventually a balkanization of the country.

There is no reason someone can't learn English before they enter the country.

reply to post by slackerwire

And this would justify having innocent people convicted in your courts?

I believe I'm done arguing with you.

reply to post by slackerwire


We have had immigration since our Country was founded. First generation immigrants almost never speak the language unless in is native to them. By the second and third generations the children have integrated. Balkanization occurs when the host Country chooses to segregate a populace.




[edit on 28-6-2008 by harvib]

I say get the government encourage the Mexican government to buy their people "Rosetta stone" English learning software.. lol Just a joke.

Providing such things as translators and such for a fair trial is the right thing to do. As someone had said, it makes the U.S. part of the civilized countries; protecting our freedoms (i.e to know/not know/not want to learn another language). Though I think it will take some time before the "English only" crowd will accept the fact that its going to be a multiple-language society. (granted I'm for English only because hearing people talk about you in a different language behind your back and knowing what they are saying is discouraging). This language barrier is a small one, it puts a burden on the people. but its not that big of a deal too. I mean those who hate people who speak Spanish and complain that they need to learn English, have the capability of educating themselves in the language and learn that these people are just like "us" in most cases.

Originally posted by BlackProjects
I was just a juror in a two day trial. It involved hispanics(no english of course/illegals at least till child was born 4 years ago). The trial forced the use of translators- doubling the time(non knew english well enough to testify directly.

Local police interviewed no one, collected no evidence other than what was provided by the witness against the defendent. A detective "worked on the case" but failed to interview any neighbor where alledged shooting took place.

What is it going to be like in 5 years/10?

Yeah.. I sounds like the detective didn't do a very thorough job.

On a side note, was it really necessary to bring up the defendant's ethnicity? It seemed like a rather minute detail that had no bearing on your complaint. In the future, maybe you should try to keep you bigotry to yourself. I'm just saying..

reply to post by zephyrs


zephyrs,
The translation issue was the reason I mentioned the ethnicity of the case. The case took twice as long due to the language issue. No real bigotry meant from me. Some others who posted may have sounded a bit that way though..

BP

reply to post by zephyrs


zephyrs,
The translation issue was the reason I mentioned the ethnicity of the case. The case took twice as long due to the language issue. No real bigotry meant from me. Some others who posted may have sounded a bit that way though..

BP

I just applied for the Green Card lottery and got a call from USAFIS. Basically the guy from there was giving me the run down on what was required to be eligible to enter the United States under the green card lottery, one of the main things was that I spoke English, since i live in Ireland that wasnt an issue but he did say that if i paid for a 4 year registration and was successful I would receive a free language course of my choice, his opinion was that I choose Spanish as it is the second most spoken language in the US.

I suppose my point is that if you are entering the country legally it is mandatory that you are able to speak English.

Originally posted by harvib

If I'm not mistaken this Country was previously occupied prior to individuals that spoke English calling it their own.

Our European ancestors Took or Conquered this land and made it our own, are you suggesting the Hispanics do the same?

I'm not racist but If we didn't make is so easy for them to come here, they would have no choice but to fix the problems in their own countries.

reply to post by BlackProjects


"Court Systems failing"
But your complaint was regarding the detective's shoddy work, wasn't it?

I can't see it as being anyone's fault that the defendant didn't speak English and that translators were used to ensure a fair trial. Would you rather have the translators not be used?

As long as the US doesn't have an official language this will continue though. English being the most commonly spoken language in the US doesn't make it the US' official language.

I see no reason to complain about someone speaking another language as long as the US doesn't require it.

Originally posted by LDragonFire

I'm not racist but If we didn't make is so easy for them to come here, they would have no choice but to fix the problems in their own countries.

I don't thinks that's a racist thing to say. In fact, I believe it to be true; the US should do more to limit immigration through both Mexico and Canada. However, where I draw the line is the rounding up and deportation of those individuals that have been in this country for years and have been positively contributing to this country.

reply to post by zephyrs


Detectives, police both did not do their job. No neighbors talked to. No one went to nightclub he was alledgedly at to say look at survelliance video or talk to bar tender. The fact the entire trial was translated means double court time and therefore cost. Assuming this is happening nationwide means an already clogged court system is backing up. Even in this trial prosecution was concerned with how long until defence filed allibie defence. Defence lawyers reason - had to schedule translators to talk to witnesses. This meant more time for them to align their stories- not saying that happened but it could have.