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Disclosure dichotomy

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posted on Jun, 26 2008 @ 10:41 PM
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Something doesn't make a lick of sense to me about the secret world of UFOs. Consider some poll results below (I've taken from different polls in different years, but all were within the past 10 years.)

1.) About 70% of Americans think the gov't. is hiding knowledge of UFOs.
2.) About 55% of Americans believe in UFOs.
3.) Slightly less than 50% of Americans think UFOs have landed on earth.
4.) About 80% believe that life exists elsewhere in the universe.

OK - fast forward to today, and we learn that maybe you could grow asparagus on Mars. Maybe not. Who knows, doesn't matter in the context of this post. There are a lot of people at NASA trying to figure out if anything is living or had once lived on Mars. So is ESA and China and Russia. NASA has also chucked a couple Voyagers, a couple Pioneers and a New Horizon way WAY out there to see what the heck is going on. The SETI people are looking for life, ESA's got the Darwin Mission, blah, blah, blah - on and on.

The bottom line is that A TON of people are openly searching for life elsewhere, and even more people than that believe there's gotta be something else out there besides us.

So explain to me why the hell the U.S. or any other government is engaged in a doozie of a UFO cover-up, when other parts of that same government(s) is/are saying to everyone loud and clear that they're looking for the very thing they're accused of covering up?




posted on Jun, 26 2008 @ 10:47 PM
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Well, the main theory is there is a shadow government run by the world's elite old money families and possibly a few other billionaires that basically get first dibs on new tech and what knowledge comes out into the public. These people have no interest in an educated humanity or a humanity that can break the technological, philosophical and possibly even religious embargos we have, for a long time, been put under. Humanity would thus be in two groups, a tiny one illuminated with true knowledge, and the rest of us thumbling our way through the darkness imposed on us.

This, along with a new age higher consciousness and evolution idea which I am on the fence about is what the WAKE UP meme is refering to, an ascension from darkness, from ignorance of the universe we really live in.

I believe this idea is somewhat accurate and at least illustrates what goes on to some degree. And to answer your last paragraph's question: Ordo ab chaos, order from chaos, the elites want you confused and dazzled, so they don't care about conflicting signals or even bits of truth coming out, as long as they keep you under constant signal noise loud enough so you don't figure stuff out for yourself, stuff like water can be fuel, matter comes from energy which is near infinite, aliens are real, you have a soul and your existance is multidimensional, you're being screwed over by a debt based monetary system that centralizes wealth to the wealthy, mankind is older than you think and probably a whole lot of other stuff.

[edit on 26-6-2008 by Zepherian]



posted on Jun, 26 2008 @ 11:46 PM
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Yeah, Zepherian - all that you mentioned I think is actually fascinating. But it makes even less sense to me than an alleged UFO cover-up.

Every single breakthrough in human history can be traced backward in a logical manner to an earlier, crappier version, or maybe just a vision. What is the point of keeping the super-secret juicy technology in the closet? I flew in a 737 a few weeks ago. I'd rather have gone via teleporter, or whatever could have gotten me there in 3 seconds instead of 3 hours. I don't think you'd find too many people who would prefer the 3 hour trip over the 3 second trip. If you could build a safe, working teleporter you would make Bill Gates look like the toothless Will Work For Food guy on the street corner.

But for some reason the elite power brokers of the world would rather keep everyone on the schlub level? Couldn't they rake in gobs more cash and power if everyday morons started using the cool stuff?



posted on Jun, 27 2008 @ 12:00 AM
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I also don't get how there is some sort of Wonderful Illuminating Truth out there, which is so wonderful and illuminating that it compels a fraction of a fraction of the population to rule everyone else with an iron fist.

This higher consciousness club sounds like something Hitler put together.



posted on Jun, 27 2008 @ 12:21 AM
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Originally posted by coloneltravis
some sort of Wonderful Illuminating Truth

I just wanted to mention, that is a very 'WIT-ty' acronym.

Don't mind me; carry on.



posted on Jun, 27 2008 @ 08:14 AM
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Not really no. I think the crux of the matter is the real physics, one because it would allow for free energy and people would not need centralized economic energy companies, and that would break the elite driven world economy, and it might even possibly have metaphysical implications which would break the religious dogma spell so many are under.

As for illuminati, the term is more a sociopolitical designation than some sort of religious group, I don't think these people actually believe in any deity, and do what they do out of simple selfishness. It fits within the mindset of a minority of sociopathic people, a type which I have encountered a few times in my lifetime, always to my detriment.

All that I said was theoretical, and although I find it perfectly plausible, perhaps even probable, your mileage may vary



posted on Jun, 27 2008 @ 03:33 PM
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The bottom line is that A TON of people are openly searching for life elsewhere, and even more people than that believe there's gotta be something else out there besides us.

So explain to me why the hell the U.S. or any other government is engaged in a doozie of a UFO cover-up, when other parts of that same government(s) is/are saying to everyone loud and clear that they're looking for the very thing they're accused of covering up?


The people who are searching are not the people who know. Simple as that, really.

In addition, what's the best way to convince someone you haven't found a particular thing? Simple, show them that you're still looking for it. Example: the Survivor! TV show. When a Survivor finds the immunity idol, does he go back to camp and tell everyone? No, he pretends he didn't find it and continues to "search" for it....to throw them off.

I don't think it's it of course (pretending), I think it's the first reason (the searchers don't know). Do you really think ALL of NASA could cooperate in a coverup? No, but all you need is someone highly placed to put it into effect. There is some evidence to suggest a shadow government, and it's a logical approach to take if desiring to effect such a coverup.



posted on Jun, 28 2008 @ 08:31 AM
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That's what most people don't realise about conspiracy theory: compartimentalization. The same is true for the media too, you don't have to control all the journalists if you own the editor. And after a while you influence the dominant memes so much that journalists will get in line by themselves out of peer pressure and general suckupness.

Star for you.



posted on Jun, 28 2008 @ 11:57 AM
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reply to post by Zepherian
 


I tend to think that we each, as individuals, have potential access to illumination and higher-order understanding of the world we live in.

Compartmentalization also happens within each of us. We hide knowledge from ourselves.



posted on Jun, 28 2008 @ 04:08 PM
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Yes, that happens too, but once you obtain a higher understanding of how society works, or BS-sense[tm], you're still going uphill trying to distribute those ideas, because of peer pressure and compatimentalized control structures that filter knowledge at the social level.



posted on Jun, 28 2008 @ 04:51 PM
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As someone who is in the Navy, I've had a lot of experience with the government, and even gotten the chance to talk to individuals who have been involved in projects and operations that did not happen.

I will tell you that 'the cover-up' for UFOs is far less organized than it appears - based on my experience with how our government, military, and agencies operate. What happens is that there are general policies established... for example: "UFOs and aliens are a product of overactive imaginations - there is always a perfectly logical explanation." (of course, the prospect that something is of extra-terrestrial origin is exempt from the list of logical explanations) Thus, many 'strange' occurrences are simply regarded as anomalies or misinterpretations, and never go farther than the mindset of a pilot or radar operator (or the OOD if attention is drawn). Truly extraordinary events are reported, and often go up a few levels, where sub-agencies of each branch catalog the information and give some explanation to calm everyone else down.

Anymore, I highly doubt there is much of a central investigation into UFO phenomena or "aliens." The political climate has lost interest, any funding for such projects was likely cut because it was seemingly doing nothing (as Congress was not being given a whole lot of information). The central organization likely dissolved in the early 90s and a lot of research, evidence, contact information, etc was either lost or transferred to a private entity (possibly the people originally involved in the project, realizing its importance) responsible for it - or all data was destroyed (alternatively it could be sitting in some basement somewhere waiting for a working party to find it and report it to their CO .... be about the only working party that would suddenly be granted top secret security clearance and given a hell of a debrief....).

Either way, existing research is likely jointly funded covertly (and likely on rather minimal funding) and jointly staffed by all of the branches - with very little knowledge existing from all of the fun and excitement in the 40s-70s.

Why would it be covered up? Simple - look at what we did when we discovered nuclear weapons - we started racing to see who could be the first to be capable of blowing the world up ten times over.... if you somehow survived the first nine searing blasts.... we'd get you on the tenth, by golly! Of course we would do the same thing when we discovered alien artifacts and aliens, themselves. Also, the public would nearly tear itself apart. Some would think the aliens are going to kill us, others would think they are going to save us, and others would think it was all a government conspiracy.... and still others would just want everyone to shut up.

Far more trouble than it's worth. It would be best to let people figure it all out on their own, then let the government explain why it had kept it all a secret - rather than the government try and introduce everyone to this. History has shown that governments fail at introducing their citizens to new ideas and concepts.



posted on Jun, 28 2008 @ 05:37 PM
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who knows what's really going on? maybe there is an evil plot

but if it's just regular misguided humans who currently happen to be in charge

and we assume for the sake of argument that there is this information that's been kept from the world - for whatever reason

maybe nothing really that sinister after all - maybe more of a "we know this - what in the Sam Hill are we supposed to do with it?"

and now is the time for people to know the truth - for whatever reason

or because we're asking

but it isn't certain that people are capable of actually handling the truth -

I could see it all begin by introducing new information in smaller chunks - give us time to get used to the idea

we think extraterrestrial life is possible - we're looking for it

the soil on Mars could potentially support life

there's evidence of water - past or present

we've found life - microorganisms - or their remains

they might find something that appears to be a structure - or at least something that doesn't appear to be naturally occurring - they could chew on that one for a long time

if life is possible, or there's evidence there was life on Mars - visitors would be the next logical step

I know there are plenty of people who expect this, and already accept it - and are ready for it to happen

as far as the whole planet goes - I don't know



posted on Jun, 28 2008 @ 06:16 PM
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The incompetence conspiracy. I've considered this angle too, and I would not be surprised if it does indeed explain a lot if not all of the governments side in the UFO phenomenon. Another thing that happens is the governments have used the UFO phenomenons to divert atention from other more worldly issues:

The best example is area 51, which is a nuclear test site and which has probably contaminated dozens if not hundreds of personnel, both military and civil, causing a rash of sueable diseases. These people, because they work under secrecy, are at a legal disadvantage when it comes to proving their the source of their ailments and thus cannot get compensation. And the government shafts them. Meanwhile people put on latex alien heads and dance around in the desert, oblivious to this very human tragedy going on the other side of the mountain range. George Knapp has reported this on C2C.

At the same time if people are busy looking for triangles they won't notice that F16 has a laser cannon.

I have a hard time accepting the notion of aliens being held prisoners. For one thing they can supposedly walk through walls in abduction cases, why would they let the primitives keep crash material? By treaty would be another thing, but that seems a bit up in the air untill official sources actually deliver on the technology.

It's a pretty complex issue, and there is probably more than one valid explanation.



posted on Jun, 28 2008 @ 06:41 PM
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Well, you have to take reports of the beings, themselves, with a grain of salt. You have all sorts of reports out there that cover everything in the book. There are people out there who say the aliens want to breed with us and had just such an experience, people who say that they tried to eat them, and others who say that the greys (since they appear to be the most common encounter - though the Europeans report far more encounters with "Nordics" than any other race so that just makes the puzzle bigger and the pieces smaller) can shoot lasers out of their eyes.

Personally, I don't feel that Greys are anything beyond a hivemind critter that looks like a cross between a Chimp and a fly and can fly around in outer space with some technology that extends a hundred years or more ahead of our own (we will likely catch up and surpass them rather shortly).

Thus, they wouldn't stop us from keeping their wreckage, or keeping some of them prisoner. Though to what extent we have either of those is unknown. Likely any knowledge of their physiology has been lost after defense budget cuts, and we haven't recovered an specimens since. Wreckage is probably still stashed somewhere - but who knows where, and if there are any active studies of it.

But I will say that the military takes care of their own - and lawsuits about improper handling of materials are a very unlikely reason for any sort of a cover story.

It's just the best possible move as far as counter-intelligence is concerned, to say nothing on the definitive things. For instance, the unresolved cases in Project Blue Book.... just say "I dunno" - and move on. It generates all kinds of thoughts in the minds of the public - which generates all kinds of "leads" for enemy spies and operatives to follow.... only to find out it's some quack wearing a tin-foil hat.

You can play all sides of the coin - if you have whistle blowers that try and call you out from within your own organization.... you simply discharge them and attach a reason that amounts to "he is a #bag" and let the conspiracy theorists and "debunkers" go at it - they eventually get bored and move on to something else, and it just becomes another testimony that ends up going nowhere. And other intelligence agencies trying to figure out what you are actually doing doesn't know what to make of any of it.... is it a true story? Is he a quack? Or is it a deliberate counter-intelligence statement intended to spoof them?

It doesn't matter whether or not they have UFOs - the community of believers and disbelievers will believe what they want to, but won't be able to prove any of it either way.... so it works out incredibly well.



posted on Jun, 28 2008 @ 07:12 PM
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I want to give you guys something to chew on for a minute....

My whole family is military. Grandfather was a ww2 erea spec ops marine. Uncle was a vietnam era seal. I was enlisted in a branch of the service that i am contractually obligated never to mention until the day i die because i was not there and it never happened.

What i'm getting at is this: The more some one tries to tell you it didnt happen or its not real, chances are its real and it's happened. I dont know any ultimate truths about why the gov. hasn't disclosed the truth on UFO's and EBE's but i know them well enough to tell you that they are full of crap when they say its never happened. I know what they tell you when they say "you weren't there, this never happened, you are a ghost" And i also know what happens if i mention anything more than that. It aint pretty if you get what saying.

I don't know if there is a hidden government or not, but when you have a government as corrupt as ours who needs one behind the scenes??? Their fingers are in everything, and they know things that the average person will never know, and if they found out they might just crap their pants on the spot.

The US gov. fears no one and intimidates every body. Their power was taken by the barrel of a colt 45. If they decide that the american people are ready for disclosure then the american people will get disclosure. I personally have looked outside of our country to the rest of the world for my proof... as of right now England, France and most of South America has a very open up front with the public UFO policy... so does Japan. I take my cue from them. We're not alone, We've been visited by beings not from our planet, and we probably have technologies that are much further advanced then anything the public knows about.

I think its up to the individual to decide ultimately... Do you really trust your government enough to believe them even if they did come right out and say that they've been dealing with other planetary beings??? Or do you feel like i feel and think that they are in this game or themselves and their own damn purpose. We're only the people that pay their bills, other than that we are pawns to them.... worthless human test subjects and soldiers to do their bidding.

I've looked at both sides of it. I am so certain that there is life elsewhere in the universe. It's a;lmost an impossibility for there not to be.... Over a trillion galaxies each with over a trillion stars, each possibly containing their own solar system, and each possibly containing an earthlike planet or two or three. Each of those possibly containing life forms that have hade a couple billion more years then we have to evolve and advance technologically....

Disclosure may never happen in our life time... but with odds like that who needs it??? All signs point to yes.

I have one little treat for you guys that will bend your brain a little bit... after you see it tell me if you believe that there is no life any where else but here.


click this please



posted on Jun, 28 2008 @ 07:47 PM
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reply to post by W3RLIED2
 




Please, you give the government far too much credit.

They aren't organized enough to be capable of the types of corruption you indicate. The damned military isn't organized enough for that kind of corruption to be taking place.

Making radical claims about your status or former status in the military doesn't get you very far. I may be a lowly little airdale who works with some of this nation's most advanced avionics equipment - but I've hung out with people who have need-to-know access to materials that blow your mind. Like I said - you hear things through the grapevine.

And I have friends that handle the information many of you seek to know - they are my friends - we don't violate security protocols, but we share what we can - and I trust them - a few of them I went through Boot with.

It's not this malevolent conspiracy to hide information and control people. The government doesn't need UFOs and Aliens to coerce people - the media does a good-enough job of that, already.

Just drop this congressional bogeyman paranoia - it's ridiculous.

From what I can piece together, I have to say I believe what I have posted, above. What I believe is: Our military acknowledges UFOs as a genuine extra-terrestrial phenomena and classifies related information to prevent mass hysteria and civil wars. However, a different side is presented to the public and general military ranks. Our Government likely doesn't give a damned - they have contingency plans and are paying people to take care of the problem if it exists.

But this whole "they is using the aliens to manipulate us and control us" just gets old. It's silly and demonstrates a lack of understanding of our government - which is a pack of raving monkeys, much like this thing that we call society. Which is what you would expect - since societies elect the leaders. The few that are organized and "have their # together" are suspected of being aliens, reptoids, MJ12 operatives, to have an ulterior motive.... it's a lose-lose situation. People want a competent government but are afraid of competent leaders.

Somewhere I recall a quote: "The most sure sign that there is intelligent life in the universe is that it has not tried to contact us yet." Kind of ironic since I believe a number of UFO cases are genuine ET phenomena - but it is a very valid point.



posted on Jun, 28 2008 @ 08:02 PM
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There is nothing radical about my claims buddy, i served this country and got discharged for the $hit i've been through, so dont even bother trying to tell me what they are or are not capable of. I think you're giving too little credit to be honest. I know how it works while your in and i know about how to share certain things that arent supposed to be officially shared. Theres no way for me to prove it so theres really no point in asking. They do some stuff that just isnt kosher though.

I never said they're using the whole UFO thing as a crutch i just said if they dont want us to know then we probably wont ever know. I do think they are trying to manipulate the public though, they have been grooming us to be so disconnected from reality that we ignore what they are really trying to accomplish. Aliens or no Aliens the people in power are crooked and have a lot of secrets.



posted on Jun, 28 2008 @ 08:28 PM
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Certainly there are those questing for power in the government today. But the blame often falls on the wrong individuals.

Political parties are marginally involved, but the main ones are labor unions and special interest groups. They want more power and more 'rights' in some way, shape, or form, and don't really care what gets in their way.

But it's far from some grand conspiracy made by the government. It's simply the trends of society. The U.S. is shifting to a fascist state as people have slowly become accustomed to looking to the national government for support and regulation as opposed to their local governments. Further compounding this is the idea that we should "provide food and shelter for everyone", not to mention medical care and treatment.

Of course, there are more than a few groups willing to capitalize on the amount of power that will give them - Constitution be damned.

It's the way our society is progressing and what it is forking over to those willing to take it. Individual responsibility is becoming an idiom of the past, family values are being replaced by crass humor and "I do what I want."

It's far from a conspiracy to make it happen. People are just stupid and let it happen. And trust me on this - 90% of the military (or more) is on the side of the People. If "the government" tries to pull a fast one, they're going to have to deal with most of the U.S. Armed Forces. Most of the people flying any alleged UFOs would likely be against "the government", anyway. You learn to hate Congress when you're in the military. They do nothing but find new and innovative ways to make your job as close to impossible as they can manage. Then they ask you what the hell they are paying for when you can't do what they ask.

Congress is stupid and is so open to "group think" that it's pathetic. And the president is always damned if he does and damned if he doesn't, and all of the mistakes of Congress end up being his problem........ I don't know why anyone would run for the Presidency unless they are a masochist. The parties are always too consumed with battling each other or trying to figure out who among them is the most qualified to run for the next election (I have no idea where they find some of their candidates.... or what makes them think he/she is a good choice). They don't have enough sense to conspire anything other than mud-slinging competitions.



posted on Jun, 28 2008 @ 09:10 PM
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reply to post by Aim64C
 


heard that bro! I agree with that entire post! Only thing i would like to add is that thre really is no more power in the labour unions.... your talking to a union carpenter. The main thing the union cares about is money, and they will have no problem trying to cut the legs out from any one who stands in their way to get it...

I'm not saying i agree with all of what they do but the UBC (United Brotherhood of Carpenters) does take care of the people who pay their dues, and the pension plan is better than what they offer in the service. Wages are better too.

In the overall scheme of things i dont think the general poppulace cares wheather or not the government comes out with any of their dark little secrets. every one is too caught up in their own little world to look at things that are happening around them. If disclosure happened tomorrow i think the members of ATS (myself included) and other underground UFO buffs would be the only ones to notice and pay attention for more than a week. It would fade out quickly and become a vague memory just like 9-11... The "remember when syndrome" would kick in quickly. But, like i said earlier... would you trust them even when they tell you that we're not alone??? Or would it just be another conspiracy to mess with the little guys and keep the rich in power?



posted on Jun, 29 2008 @ 02:49 PM
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reply to post by Aim64C
 





Far more trouble than it's worth. It would be best to let people figure it all out on their own, then let the government explain why it had kept it all a secret - rather than the government try and introduce everyone to this. History has shown that governments fail at introducing their citizens to new ideas and concepts.


I have to agree with that - not so much that they shouldn't bother telling us - but I think that explains why they don't

I have a question - when you say you know people who have access to the info we're all dying to know (I'm not about to ask you what you know) I wonder how you feel about what you know - if you understand what I'm asking?

you have a pretty rational, matter of fact take on things - but I also get that you believe there's plenty here to talk about –

sounds like I'm completely bailing on this threads topic - but I'm not - I think it goes directly to the question of why would our government go so far out of it's way to cover up any of this?

you were/are in the military - and in just a few posts you manage to both criticize the military and defend them. Which just seems so reasonable to me that it makes me take you seriously

but more on topic - since you're not telling us it's time to take up arms and barricade ourselves in our homes - but you're also pretty much saying that you know for a fact that there are things to know - seems to me your pretty relaxed and comfortable with the way things are - and the way it's being handled

the U.S. military is an unbelievably powerful organization – even if there is a large percentage of disorganized bumbling morons employed there - no different than anywhere else

so, it’s not that I don’t see a huge, convoluted – really nasty conspiracy as being possible – we all know it’s possible - I just don’t think it’s the most likely explanation – I think the simple answer is usually closer to the mark

when you say that 90% of the people in the military are on the side of the people - that's pretty much how I see it too

not to put too much of a Pollyanna spin on things – but I just don't see most of the military (or government – or world) as being made up of mindless cyborgs that exist only to serve as tools in the twisted plans of their dark, soulless overlords. Or even as stupid, sleeping sheep waiting to be slaughtered.

I think there's something going on here that requires an explanation – I believe our government knows more than it’s letting on - and I don’t see them as being all that forthcoming - nothing necessarily bigger or more complicated than that

but I can't know that for sure

we’re actually here now – at a point in time when people aren’t just wondering anymore, but actually demanding information from their governments about the UFO question

so if the answer to the original question turns out to be the simplest answer - they’re not covering anything up – they're just not giving anything up

it makes me wonder – do you have questions - or concerns at all about how it's being handled? How do you feel about what you know?



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