Obama online birth certificate - A now confirmed fake, page 5

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reply posted on 26-6-2008 @ 04:26 PM by SRTkid86

reply to post by SaviorComplex

you are putting a spin on it, she never verified it was real, she said she couldn't look into it more unless Obama gave her permission (oh dear, who wants to bet on whether THAT will happen?

i would say that the combination of her saying that they DON'T issue them electronically, and the fact that most scanners aren't capable of SHOWING a raised seal, points to it being a fake (whether or not he actually was born in hawaii is speculation at this point) it's obvious on multiple levels that whatever he is trying to pass off as a real document is not indeed what he says it is.

and just to clarify, when i am talking about the seal, on the copy he has there is a "stamped" seal there, and not a raised seal... that is major Red flag IMO. on my CALIFORNIA ABSTRACT OF BIRTH (which is the same damn form we are talking about here) i don't have a stamped seal, it's a raised gold leaf looking kind of seal.

[edit on 6/26/08 by SRTkid86]

reply posted on 26-6-2008 @ 04:33 PM by Johnmike

reply to post by Andrew E. Wiggin

Point 1 seems fine to me.

2, I'm still not convinced, but that explanation is the best.

3 is hard to do but doesn't really prove it's fake anyway.

So we have the case of the missing stamp. Now we just need an expert in imaging.

[edit on 26-6-2008 by Johnmike]

reply posted on 26-6-2008 @ 04:37 PM by Tuning Spork

Originally posted by Andrew E. Wiggin
So ill sum this up

1.) An official from Hawaii says its not fake. Despite what the OP suggests the same official said

2.) People say its a fake because there is no "mark". So - the same official from Hawaii gives reasons for that. BH posts reasons for that. Makes it "possible" that there is a stamp, because there IS a date, and the date is on the opposite side. But you disregard this info

Okay, let's sum up. Jim Geraghty:

I spoke to Ms. Okubo late Wednesday afternoon, and she said she had seen the version of Obama’s certificate of live birth posted on the sites. While her office cannot verify the information on a form without the permission of the certificate holder (Obama), she said "the form is exactly the same" and it has "all the components of a birth certificate" record issued by the state. In other words, she sees no reason to think the version posted on Obama's web site and Daily Kos is not genuine.

This is not a confirmation that the document is genuine. Ms. Okubo is the Health Department spokesperson and it's unlikely that she has seen the original document. She states that it is "exactly the same" as a Hawaii CoLB, with "all the components".

The “embossed seal” in question is, she said, probably on the back of the document provided to Daily Kos, but not visible (as in another certificate posted on Israel Insider for contrast). She thinks the difference in visibility can be attributed to the pressure used when applying the seal.

The seal is "embossed" because it is created by a hand-held devise that embosses the paper. It cannot be "on the back" or on the front of the document. But that could be chalked up to Ms. Okubo not really thinking that through as she answered questions over the phone.

The remaining point of interest is the absence of the stamp and registrar signature.

While the embossed seal may be invisible to the scanner that produced the image we see on Obama's website, the stamp and signature should be as plainly visible as the date stamped on the back of the document. But this is missing.

reply posted on 26-6-2008 @ 04:47 PM by Benevolent Heretic

Originally posted by Tuning Spork
This is not a confirmation that the document is genuine.

See my post on the bottom of page 4.

Edited to add link: www.abovetopsecret.com...

[edit on 26-6-2008 by Benevolent Heretic]

reply posted on 26-6-2008 @ 04:55 PM by Tuning Spork

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
Confirmed Valid

"It's a valid Hawaii state birth certificate," spokesman Janice Okubo said after we e-mailed her our copy.

Aah but, BH, perhaps Ms. Okubo made that assessment based only on the document's appearance. Did she notice at the time that a 2007 date stamped on the back was visible, but not a stamp with registrar signature? Hmm...

reply posted on 26-6-2008 @ 05:06 PM by Benevolent Heretic

What would it take to prove that it's valid to you? The claim is made. It's from the person's mouth. She said it's valid.

What if she's a space alien? Hmmm?

You guys are a piece of work!

reply posted on 26-6-2008 @ 05:21 PM by Andrew E. Wiggin

First its proven!!! HERES PROOF ITS FAKE

then its

uhh....well...
.
.
.
.
you cant prove that its NOT fake *sticks out tongue*

you gota laugh, really do.

The lady said its authentic. Until she herself, comes out and says "i was wrong, its not valid" then you have no case.

Sorry.

If you are saying she said anything other than "its valid" then you are putting words in her mouth to validate your own eager-beaver opinion.

reply posted on 26-6-2008 @ 05:36 PM by Johnmike

Click here for more information.

reply posted on 26-6-2008 @ 05:39 PM by Johnmike

Originally posted by Tuning Spork
The seal is "embossed" because it is created by a hand-held devise that embosses the paper. It cannot be "on the back" or on the front of the document. But that could be chalked up to Ms. Okubo not really thinking that through as she answered questions over the phone.

The remaining point of interest is the absence of the stamp and registrar signature.

While the embossed seal may be invisible to the scanner that produced the image we see on Obama's website, the stamp and signature should be as plainly visible as the date stamped on the back of the document. But this is missing.

This. Anyone have anything to add? Why this is absent? The fact that this is missing seems to make it a suspect for forgery.

And that doesn't include an idiot screaming "but she said it looked valid!" Thanks, amigos.

reply posted on 26-6-2008 @ 06:23 PM by centurion1211

Originally posted by bigbert81
Actually, you will find that Jexnet is and has been misleading in many of his anti-Obama posts. He is much like Fox News in only saying things in certain ways to push his own agenda.

If you're going to look for any anti-Obama stuff, look for a credible, unbiased source, something I would not quite call Jexnet.

Ah, the first lib tactic when they have no defense for one of Obama's latest scew-ups is often - shoot the messenger.

Although, in sympathy, about the only thing they could try to say on this one is something about how it's not important in the larger scope.

What's next, the dems will attempt to defend Obama by saying that the Republicans also forge birth certificates?

Are the obamaphiles getting tired yet of defending their poor excuse for a candidate yet?

reply posted on 26-6-2008 @ 07:00 PM by lee anoma

Originally posted by SaviorComplex

"It's a valid Hawaii state birth certificate," spokesman Janice Okubo said June 13, 2008, after we e-mailed her our copy.
This has been sourced in my previous posts in this thread.

They you go. Straight from an official's mouth.

Nice work.
As I said before this was simply another approach to the same game.

This sort of speculative mudslinging being passed off as truth is a dead-end.
No matter what level of proof is provided, those that wish to continue to sow the seeds of libelous doubt will find yet ANOTHER way to present this same story in a different way. It's verified by the Hawaii Department of Health but now the speculation goes into whether or not they actually saw the correct version? That they are in other words incompetent. Had they said it was fake that would have been readily accepted as fact.

Give it up guys. Obama IS AN American. Deal with it, and move on.
Stop reaching and base your claims on facts not paranoid and delusional fantasy.

The title of this thread should be changed.

This is not a confirmation that Obama is not an American, just another confirmation that there are many sad attempts to prejudice the public that have no basis in reality.

I look forward to the next whopper.

- Lee

reply posted on 26-6-2008 @ 10:48 PM by DJMessiah

reply to post by jetxnet

israeliinsider? You mean the same news agency that claims Obama's brother claimed he's a Muslim, even though it was later proven that he never told them this?

Yeah, I'll be sure to take the news article as 100% truth with no questions asked.

[edit on 26-6-2008 by DJMessiah]

reply posted on 26-6-2008 @ 11:18 PM by Tuning Spork

Greetings, sports fans. At 8:54pm EDT I have recieved a response from Janice Okubo to my email of last evening. (For the purpose of this report I am substituing my ATS name for my real name.)

First, here is my original email :

From: (my email address redacted)
Sent: Wednesday, June 25, 2008 7:26 PM
To: Okubo, Janice S.
Subject: Barack Obama CoLB and Israeli Insider

Greetings and salutations, Ms Okubo, on what I hope is a wonderful day.

My name is (Tuning Spork) and I am a member of the web forum AboveTopSecret.com. ATS is discussion board that explores "alternative" topics such as conspiracies, UFOs and the paranormal. My focus is on the "conspiracy" side of things; specifically, those that are political in nature. The ATS motto is "Deny Ignorance".

There is a discussion going on today concerning information that you allegedly gave to a website called IsraeliInsider.com. The Israeli Insider post in question is here: web.israelinsider.com... and the words attributed to you are in this paragraph:

Janice Okubo, Director of Communications of the State of Hawaii Department of Health, told Israel Insider: "At this time there are no circumstances in which the State of Hawaii Department of Health would issue a birth certification or certification of live birth only electronically." And, she added, "In the State of Hawaii all certified copies of certificates of live birth have the embossed seal and registrar signature on the back of the document."

As you might imagine, there is a strain of skepticism in me and many others regarding the legitimacy of any claims made that cannot be corroborated.

So, my first question is, of course: Are these your words?

Secondly: Does the article accurately portray the facts as you understand them, i.e., Does the lack of an embossed seal and registrar signature on the document that the Obama campaign claims to be a valid Certificate of Live Birth, in your opinion, render it an invalid document and a likely forgery?

Thank you very much for any reply, however brief or extensive.

The Above Top Secret discussion thread on this matter, in case you're interested, is here: www.abovetopsecret.com...'

Warm regards,

(Tuning Spork)

Here is Ms. Okubo's response:

Aloha Mr. (Tuning Spork):

In response to your e-mail, below and attached are the response to the Israeli Insider’s e-mailed questions.

[You wrote: So, my first question is, of course: Are these your words?]

The following was provided to the Israeli Insider in an e-mail response. Their questions are in black. My response is in blue. (Edit: I changed the Blue to Red to make it much easier to read against the ATS dark background. --TS)

4. Can you describe any circumstances in which The State of Hawaii Department of Health would issue a Birth Certification or Certification of Live Birth only electronically rather than printed and mailed?
At this time there are no circumstances in which the State of Hawaii Department of Health would issue a birth certification or certification of live birth only electronically. Verification of information contained in vital records can be done electronically with the approval of the applicant.

5. Can a family member of a child born in Hawaii obtain a Certification of Live Birth on the basis of a signed affidavits or must such a Certification always be based on a primary document (i.e. original birth certificate)
Information on obtaining a certification of live birth in Hawaii is available at hawaii.gov...

6. Would it be correct to say that a certification of live birth or a birth certificate without an embossed seal and an official signature would not be authentic or valid?
In the State of Hawaii all certified copies of certificates of live birth have the embossed seal and registrar signature on the back of the document. Only certified copies of vitals records that require an Apostille have the embossed seal and signature on the front.

[You wrote: Secondly: Does the article accurately portray the facts as you understand them, i.e., Does the lack of an embossed seal and registrar signature on the document that the Obama campaign claims to be a valid Certificate of Live Birth, in your opinion, render it an invalid document and a likely forgery?]

This question should be directed to the individual or organization that posted the document being referred to. It seems you may have concerns about the resolution of the image and how the frontal view was displayed on the web. Obviously, our agency has no control over these things.

Janice Okubo
Communications Office
Hawaii State Department of Health
1250 Punchbowl Street
Honolulu, Hawaii 96813
Phone: (808) 586-4442
Fax: (808) 586-4444
email: janice.okubo@doh.hawaii.gov

And, finally, here is the attachment of the email she sent to Reuven Koret of IsraeliInsider.com: (I've lopped off the introduction and will begin with Mr. Koret's questions and Ms. Okubo's replies.)

1. You were quoted in a Florida paper (St. Petersburg Times) as saying that the Barack Obama birth certificate is "real." On what basis did you make that determination?
Hawaii state law (HRS §338-18) prevents disclosure of information contained in vital statistics records except to those people who have a direct and tangible interest in the record as defined by statute. For information on requesting verification of birth records go to hawaii.gov...

2. Specifically, did you rely only on the image emailed by the journalist or did you check into the underlying record in your database or see a printed document?
Hawaii state law (HRS §338-18) prevents disclosure of information contained in vital statistics records except to those people who have a direct and tangible interest in the record as defined by statute. For information on requesting verification of birth records go to hawaii.gov...

3. Can you explain the difference between a certification of live birth and an original birth certificate? And can you confirm whether Barack Obama has one or both of these? (If so please indicate the basis for this information. Thanks!)
A certification of live birth is a birth certificate in the State of Hawaii. Hawaii state law (HRS §338-18) prevents disclosure of information contained in vital statistics records except to those people who have a direct and tangible interest in the record as defined by statute. For information on requesting verification of birth records go to hawaii.gov...

4. Can you describe any circumstances in which The State of Hawaii Department of Health would issue a Birth Certification or Certification of Live Birth only electronically rather than printed and mailed?
At this time there are no circumstances in which the State of Hawaii Department of Health would issue a birth certification or certification of live birth only electronically. Verification of information contained in vital records can be done electronically with the approval of the applicant.

5. Can a family member of a child born in Hawaii obtain a Certification of Live Birth on the basis of a signed affidavits or must such a Certification always be based on a primary document (i.e. original birth certificate)
Information on obtaining a certification of live birth in Hawaii is available at hawaii.gov...

6. Would it be correct to say that a certification of live birth or a birth certificate without an embossed seal and an official signature would not be authentic or valid?
In the State of Hawaii all certified copies of certificates of live birth have the embossed seal and registrar signature on the back of the document. Only certified copies of vitals records that require an Apostille have the embossed seal and signature on the front.

I am truly appreciative of your taking the time to speak with me or to answer some or all of these question. I know you must be exceptionally busy but I think you will agree that this is a matter of intense national interest.

Thanks again, and shalom from Israel. Mahalo.

Reuven Koret
Publisher Israel Insider

(Edit to change color.)

[edit on 26-6-2008 by Tuning Spork]

reply posted on 27-6-2008 @ 02:26 AM by Tuning Spork

So, where do we stand now? Let's see...

As for the questions in my original email, Israeli Insider's quotes are accurate; those are Ms. Okubo's words. And as for the seal and registrar signature not appearing to be present, she offers no opinion and suggests directing that question to the Obama campaign and/or their website people to determine why that is.

But it seems to me that since the June 2007 date that's stamped on the reverse is visible, the stamp and signature should also be visible. This doesn't appear, on it's face, to be a "resolution of the image" issue.

Israeli Insider asked her on what she based her opinion, as reported by the St Petersburg Times, that the document was "real". Was it based solely on viewing the posted document or did she check the originals? Ms. Okubo did not answer the question, instead noting that there are proper channels for varifying vitals documents and an email with a third party with no direct interest in the information is not one of them.

As for the difference between a "birth certificate" and a "certificate of live birth", she says quite plainly that "a certificate of live birth is a birth certificate in the state of Hawaii." The possibility that there may be a more elaborate birth certificate -- one that includes what most would consider "normal" details such as parents' address, child's birth weight, etc -- is left open, imo.

The document seems to be valid, with all of "its component parts" in place, except for the stamp and registrar signature. And, as she said, "in the State of Hawaii all certified copies of certificates of live birth have the embossed seal and registrar signature on the back of the document."

So there we are, just where we were.

reply posted on 27-6-2008 @ 07:26 AM by Benevolent Heretic

First of all, TS, thank you for the work you did and for being forthcoming with the results.

Originally posted by Tuning Spork
So there we are, just where we were.

You know... I agree. Those who doubt the validity of this document for some reason that I cannot explain, other than the fact that it was planted as a suggestion by people with an agenda, are right where they were, as no amount of evidence will apparently change their minds. And we, who have no reason to doubt it are right where we were, still having no reasonable motive to think that there are shenanigans going on.

I just wonder... what is the reason for doubting it? What is the suspicion? Why has no one ever looked at another president's birth certificate with even close to this amount of scrutiny?

In the State of Hawaii all certified copies of certificates of live birth have the embossed seal and registrar signature on the back of the document. Only certified copies of vitals records that require an Apostille have the embossed seal and signature on the front.

We have seen how high quality scanners purposely use lighting to remove any sign of folds (like an embossed seal). The registrars signature was made by a human so there's no reason we would see that. And the date we are seeing was obviously stamped with dark ink that's showing through the document, perhaps even being stamped with a lot of pressure, as one would stamp a document.

I honestly believe we could post a certified film of the Hawaiian hospital and Obama being born and some people would still find a way of saying that it's not good enough.

It's mind-boggling, in my opinion, for ATS members to think that the US government wouldn't check this kind of thing. Sometimes I think the tin hats are a bit tight.

reply posted on 27-6-2008 @ 09:32 AM by SaviorComplex

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
You know... I agree. Those who doubt the validity of this document for some reason that I cannot explain, other than the fact that it was planted as a suggestion by people with an agenda, are right where they were, as no amount of evidence will apparently change their minds. And we, who have no reason to doubt it are right where we were, still having no reasonable motive to think that there are shenanigans going on.

You are right. They have come to believe, without any evidence whatsoever, that his birth certificate will say he was born in Kenya, was born with the name Barry, his middle name is Muhammed, and his "birth religion" is Muslim. There is no evidence, anywhere, for this. And because the proof presented does not say this, they will not accept it. They will say it's fake, not official, or that officials have been bribed. They continually move the goal-posts because it does not fulfill their racist fantasies.

And yes, I say they are racist fantasies. Because he has a funny-sounding name, because he is not white, because his father was a lapse Muslim, they are scrutinizing this to the point of obsession. They want to find something related to his birth that would (they mistakenly believe) would disqualify him from the presidency.

When asked why they are so obsessed, they refuse to answer. Because they know their reasons are racist.

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
I honestly believe we could post a certified film of the Hawaiian hospital and Obama being born and some people would still find a way of saying that it's not good enough.

Again, true. They would question the doctor's race ("There were no Hawaiian doctors in Hawaii in 1962!), they would question how much his mother was sweating, or the thread count of the sheets on the bed.

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
It's mind-boggling, in my opinion, for ATS members to think that the US government wouldn't check this kind of thing. Sometimes I think the tin hats are a bit tight.

It doesn't speak well to their intelligence that they don't think Clinton or McCain would have already checked this out.

[edit on 27-6-2008 by SaviorComplex]

reply posted on 30-6-2008 @ 04:20 AM by obamafan14

reply to post by jetxnet

Wow you guys did it you figured it out. Obama's birth certificate is a fake. You guys on a message board figured out what Mccain could not. its perfectly reasonable to believe that if obama had a fake birth certificate , that the MCcain camp wouldnt have figured it out. they are only spending millions to beat him in a campaign

Im just waiting for the obamas a reptilian thread

reply posted on 30-6-2008 @ 06:27 AM by OrangeAlarmClock

reply to post by obamafan14

Do you realize that McCain and Obama are puppets of the same master? It doesn't matter which of them is elected, so it's not like they are going to dig up dirt on each other.

reply posted on 7-7-2008 @ 05:36 PM by neformore

Thread Closed. Please Refer to
The Definitive "Birth Certificate" Thread

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