Beyond Intelligent Design - the Scientific Case for a Creator

Conspiriology:

Rather than waste my time 'fisking' your posts as usual, since it's getting late...

Read some 8th grade textbooks.

Then formulate an argument that isn't throughly destroyed on talkorigins.com, or by me, or by Astyanax, Melatonin, Madness, etc..

Then revise that argument so that it contains actually logic and known facts rather than "the bible told me so" or "BUNK!!!111!one!!1" or "you guys are idiots" or "IT COULDN't Have HAPPEnEND!!111!!1", or the newly popular "It's still a fish/shark/croc"*, or bizarre philosophical arguments.

Then get back to me.

*these arguments are generally followed by my jaw hitting the floor and remaining there, given that there are 22000 species of fish and 3000 shark, if memory serves, and that the border between them can be blurred, eg, mudskippers that are practically amphibians.

Originally posted by miriam0566

Originally posted by 5thElement
Why there is something rather then nothing ?

No matter how disappointing it is, answer to this question is impossible to obtain. If we go deep enough we start running in circles and logic and/or presence of god are irrelevant

i dont understand why it would be impossible to obtain.

you have 2 possibilties

something came from nothing

and

something always was.

which one makes more sense?

now if you are an atheist and specifically do not wish to believe in god, i can understand why you would have difficulty with this question. it forces you to admit that an eternal god becomes more logical than a universe which sprang from nothing for no reason.

thats why there are still people who argue against the big bang, admitting the universe has a beginning is to be forced to admit that "something" else, other than our universe, existed before. and so people wiggle around the logic until they come up with a theory that satisfies them. but it still boils down to the same simple question. "can something come from nothing." it doesnt take much to see that the obvious answer is no.

The question was not did something came out of nothing or if something existed forever. I suggest that you read it again...

If you are Theist, then ultimate question transforms into:

Why there is God, rather then nothing ?

If there is answer to it, it would just prompt another question, wouldn't it?

Originally posted by 5thElement

Why there is God, rather then nothing ?

If there is answer to it, it would just prompt another question, wouldn't it?

the ultimate question "can something come existance from nothing for no reason?" answers that.

if the answer is yes, they one must be able to cite an example, afterall you need evidence.

then if its no, one MUST logically conclude that "something" has always existed.

im not saying that something HAS to be a god. and eternal universe is another possibility, problem is, the universe has evidence of a beginning.

to say yes, everything came from nothing and suddenly came into exist for no reason is idiotic, even if you are suggesting that god suddenly came into existence for no reason from nothing.

something must have ALWAYS existed. ALWAYS.

from there, then you can break down to other questions like what is the likelihood of a god existing. but you must answer the first question first

To make things even more silly I can always say:

Well, there is really nothing there which can prevent it, isn't it ?

In either case, we can bounce back and forth about it for a long time...

Maybe, just maybe, ultimate question is really not a question but a "marker" for the end of the logic as we know it, the thing we put there to stop the "destructive" power of that simple, but yet a word which defines us as human: WHY?

For some it is hard, indeed, to understand that choice between 2 equally silly statements such as there was nothing first and then something and there had to been something, always, does not have to be made...

For those who feel that they have to make the choice here is the thought:

"All paths are the same, leading nowhere. Therefore, pick a path with heart!" (Carlos Castaneda)


Cheers

Originally posted by 5thElement
For those who feel that they have to make the choice here is the thought:

"All paths are the same, leading nowhere. Therefore, pick a path with heart!" (Carlos Castaneda)


Cheers

if you honestly feel these are questions are unanswerable, well then i dont know what else to say really.

its simple logic. i dont understand how people (not you specifically, but atheists in general) can say that the idea a god is absurd and illogical and then say, well something coming from nothing is illogical but then again outside the universe might not exist logic....

all evidence suggests order and logic, im not sure if we can say there is any evidence that logical conclusions can not be applied to events we have no data on (like the beginning of the universe). all evidence points to beginnings that have a cause.

Originally posted by SlyCM

Conspiriology:

Rather than waste my time 'fisking' your posts as usual, since it's getting late...

Read some 8th grade textbooks.

The BS is still BS in my college level books the same as it is in your Jr High Schools books sly , so I don't see how that would make a difference.

Then formulate an argument that isn't throughly destroyed on talkorigins.com, or by me, or by Astyanax, Melatonin, Madness, etc..

four of you against me?? mmm ok,, Ill accept your teams handicap as fair, it would take all of you,, that's for DAMN sure.

*these arguments are generally followed by my jaw hitting the floor and remaining there,

Well ya shouldn't piss me off like that, but ya know slo,, I don't remember meeting you in person like that. Not that I have' never thought about it but you never frustrated me, or ticked me off, hell your arguments have pretty much made me feel sorry for ya.

I don't know why people always accuse me of using the Bible I rarely do that and when I do, it is out of request. I also don't remember calling you guys idiots but maybe you feel like that when I'm done roasting your posts so it seems I have anyway.

- Con

Originally posted by miriam0566
its simple logic. i dont understand how people (not you specifically, but atheists in general) can say that the idea a god is absurd and illogical and then say, well something coming from nothing is illogical but then again outside the universe might not exist logic...

.

True Atheist (as opposed to "new born" one) will NEVER say that idea of god is absurd, rather that possibility that there is one is equal to possibility that there is none.

To me, lol, idea that something came out of nothing and that there was always something are equally logical/illogical because they both deal with terms where logical thinking does not work nicely: absolute nothing and infinity...which makes the whole issue less then important (for me), but like I said, for those who really have to choose, well, there they are

Originally posted by 5thElement
To me, lol, idea that something came out of nothing and that there was always something are equally logical/illogical because they both deal with terms where logical thinking does not work nicely: absolute nothing and infinity...

i can see that.... absolutes and infinities make my head spin.

just that my point is that one is more logical than another.

we are here therefore something has always been here (something can be anything, god universe, 4 legged chachi etc etc)