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Physicist's atom-sorting 'demon' created with lasers. 2nd law broken

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posted on Jun, 25 2008 @ 12:14 PM
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Physicist's atom-sorting 'demon' created with lasers. 2nd law broken


ww w.newscientist.com

Now a team has brought such a creature to life - using lasers. The demon in question is based on the one in a thought experiment devised by the Scottish physicist James Clerk Maxwell in 1871. He imagined a creature capable of seeing individual atoms in a container of gas that had a central barrier with a tiny trapdoor. Maxwell's demon could sort the atoms according to their energy by opening or shutting the trapdoor to incoming atoms, depending on their speed. The demon appears to bring order to chaos without expending energy, violating the second law of thermodynamics.
(visit the link for the full news article)



[edit on 25/6/08 by Quantum_Squirrel]




posted on Jun, 25 2008 @ 12:14 PM
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Not only is the laser demon a very cool invention seemingly allowing quantum computers to sort information (atoms) did anyone see the last line?

The demon appears to bring order to chaos without expending energy, violating the second law of thermodynamics.

did we just break the 2nd law of thermodynamics? free energy anyone? i know not from this but if its breakable , or allowed to be sidestepped somehow does this news not bode well for the future?

ww w.newscientist.com
(visit the link for the full news article)

[edit on 25/6/08 by Quantum_Squirrel]



posted on Jun, 25 2008 @ 12:31 PM
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First, If I may, I will list the 2nd law of thermodynamics-for those of us who don't know it off the top of our heads.(like me).

"The second law of thermodynamics is an expression of the universal law of increasing entropy, stating that the entropy of an isolated system which is not in equilibrium will tend to increase over time, approaching a maximum value at equilibrium"
Source

More simply put, energy (heat) can not spontaniously flow from cold to hot (the reverse is, of course, ok).

More simply put, you can't get energy from nothing.

Ok, that said, here is my take on it.

It either does not break the 2nd law of thermodynamics-even if we don't yet understand why.
OR
The second law of thermodynamics is wrong.

We are very arrogant as to what we think we know, I suspect, we only have a partial understanding, keeping us from seeing "the big picture".



posted on Jun, 25 2008 @ 12:33 PM
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Unfortunately without a subscription, I cannot read the article in it's entirety.

I find it a very interesting discovery or invention though and would love to read more.



posted on Jun, 25 2008 @ 12:42 PM
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Originally posted by Quantum_Squirrel


The demon appears to bring order to chaos without expending energy, violating the second law of thermodynamics.


err - so these are the new ` magic ` lasers that do not expend any energy ????

2nd thermodynamics is still valid - as you are using an EXTERNAL power input to affect the thermodynamic equilibrium of the first



posted on Jun, 25 2008 @ 12:42 PM
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Originally posted by mrmonsoon
First, If I may, I will list the 2nd law of thermodynamics-for those of us who don't know it off the top of our heads.(like me).

It either does not break the 2nd law of thermodynamics-even if we don't yet understand why.
OR
The second law of thermodynamics is wrong.

We are very arrogant as to what we think we know, I suspect, we only have a partial understanding, keeping us from seeing "the big picture".


I agree with you a prime example of the fact is they still teach ruthefords model in physics as true, u know the nucleus with protons and electrons spinning around like a lovely little solar system.

when the actual model and truth is these particles are in a constant state of flux and can be anywhere all the time ( untill observed).

I have no doubt that the law is wrong, or at least like i said avoidable, some sort of loop hole. but this does bode well for free energy arguments and over unity



posted on Jun, 25 2008 @ 12:49 PM
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reply to post by ignorant_ape
 


er - yes - thats what THEY appear to claim not me , a process is initiated WITHOUT expending energy , that is free energy , if i had a billion of these 'demons' doing something there may come a tipping point where u actually get more out than u put in simply because it takes NO energy to create the 'Process'

Its not the actual power it takes to boot these lasers up , its the fact that once done they can start a process over and over without putting in any more .. like i said at some point your gonna get more back than originally put in ( if upscaled sufficiently). if these claims are true of course.

Most processes require a catalyst of some sorts.



[edit on 25/6/08 by Quantum_Squirrel]



posted on Jun, 25 2008 @ 12:49 PM
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Sorry dbl post

[edit on 25/6/08 by Quantum_Squirrel]



posted on Jun, 25 2008 @ 12:49 PM
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From the page:


Daniel Steck at the University of Oregon and colleagues have recreated Maxwell's demon using a pair of parallel lasers that act as the trapdoor. The team confined rubidium ...


Without paying to buy the whole article, my first thoughts are that they're using some form of radiation given off naturally by rubidium to power the lasers, which isn't really "free" except in the same sense that energy from the Sun is free, but still comes from something.

That's just the impression I get, and I doubt many scientists would let the 2nd law go down like that without much effort to save it. You know how scientists like to cling to models they already understand, before letting anything new be introduced.

Either way, this is interesting, and I wish I could read the whole article. Violating known laws of physics always interests me, because it tends to cause new ones to be introduced, and then the technology comes.




Edit to add: Just read the posts before me (posted while I was still looking at the thread, I guess). Definitely interesting and I would like to see more.

[edit on 25-6-2008 by bsbray11]



posted on Jun, 25 2008 @ 12:54 PM
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Originally posted by Quantum_Squirrel

Originally posted by mrmonsoon
I have no doubt that the law is wrong, or at least like i said avoidable, some sort of loop hole. but this does bode well for free energy arguments and over unity


The laws of Thermodynamics might not hold on certain scales of existence, such as in extreme microscopic or macroscopic scales. They PERHAPS ONLY apply to things at easily observable scales.

Of course, this is exactly true with Newton's laws, which are valid only in "normal" frames of reference (as shown by Einstein's theories of relativity.)

Edit to add: Heat and temperature are statistical, macroscopic quantities that become somewhat ambiguous when dealing with individual atoms (as paraphrased from Wikipedia's article on the 2nd law.)

Interesting article. Perhaps we will see.

[edit on 25-6-2008 by Buck Division]



posted on Jun, 25 2008 @ 12:55 PM
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Originally posted by mrmonsoon
Ok, that said, here is my take on it.

It either does not break the 2nd law of thermodynamics-even if we don't yet understand why.
OR
The second law of thermodynamics is wrong.


I absolutely agree, thanks for the rationality.

Might I add to this?

The law itself cannot be removed altogether, it would have to be adapted.

I believe "...with exception to intentional intervention." would be a good ending for the law. It would allow for the concept of mankind violating the law, without the law actually being broken.

Most laws only really apply to things in their natural states. As man becomes increasingly un-natural, we are bound to find new and more interesting ways to violate those laws.



posted on Jun, 25 2008 @ 12:55 PM
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Originally posted by ignorant_ape

Originally posted by Quantum_Squirrel


The demon appears to bring order to chaos without expending energy, violating the second law of thermodynamics.


err - so these are the new ` magic ` lasers that do not expend any energy ????

2nd thermodynamics is still valid - as you are using an EXTERNAL power input to affect the thermodynamic equilibrium of the first


exactly my take on this, too. they obviously have NOT broken the 2nd law of thermodynamics and i find it somewhat suspect of the entire study and publication.



posted on Jun, 25 2008 @ 12:56 PM
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reply to post by mrmonsoon
 


My guess is the law is wrong. We have found out that many of our laws do not function at extremes. High pressure, heat, and in this case, size. We are still trying to figure out why light does not travel in a straight line (it has a very slight curve to it)



posted on Jun, 25 2008 @ 01:02 PM
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Originally posted by Buck Division

Originally posted by Quantum_Squirrel

Originally posted by mrmonsoon
I have no doubt that the law is wrong, or at least like i said avoidable, some sort of loop hole. but this does bode well for free energy arguments and over unity


The laws of Thermodynamics might not hold on certain scales of existence, such as in extreme microscopic or macroscopic scales. They PERHAPS ONLY apply to things at easily observable scales.

Of course, this is exactly true with Newton's laws, which are valid only in "normal" frames of reference (as shown by Einstein's theories of relativity.)

Interesting article.


Thats a sound theory , i mean these lasers are dealing with sorting things at the atomic level, and the law may not apply at all levels.

To the 2 posters above i would love to see evidence of these experiments also, even tho the source has credability at least to me.



posted on Jun, 25 2008 @ 01:14 PM
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Originally posted by Shadow_Lord
reply to post by mrmonsoon
 


My guess is the law is wrong. We have found out that many of our laws do not function at extremes. High pressure, heat, and in this case, size. We are still trying to figure out why light does not travel in a straight line (it has a very slight curve to it)


slight curve? haven't you seen a prism in action? a rainbow? a magnifying glass out in the sun? actually light bends quite easily.



posted on Jun, 25 2008 @ 01:15 PM
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A laser is a beam of light, light is energy, unless they somehow discovered a way to also break the first law of thermodynamics, energy is being expended to run this "demon." If you only consider the system as the particles and container, then you could argue you've violated the 2nd law... but this is kind of like having an external motor running a perpetual motion machine and defending it by saying you're not accounting for the external motor so the machine has broken the 1st law.

It is definitely interesting and may represent a step towards challenging the law, but at this time I think they're trumpeting their successes a little too loudly.



posted on Jun, 25 2008 @ 01:29 PM
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my take on it is.
They are not brealing the second law, becos its not a closed system, IE, i suspect the are pulling in ZPE
looks like they have to make 1 of 2 things as a fact now
either they admit ZPE is a realitity, or, the 2nd law is wrong, either way, it looks lik all these statements that overunity or whatever isnt possible just went out the window

its a good day for the free energy crowd (like me
)



posted on Jun, 25 2008 @ 02:39 PM
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In Steck’s case, the demon’s secret is rather subtle. Like all lasers, Steck’s pumping beam is an orderly arrangement of photons, all traveling in the same direction. And a photon increases the energy level of a rubidium atom by scattering off of it. “But the scattered photon goes in a random direction,” Steck observes. So while the atoms get a little more order in their lives, the pumping laser ends up with a little less.


From:
www.sciencenews.org...
More free knowledge: (Worship the almighty google, guys !)
www.aps.org...

2nd law is safe, don't worry and this tech doesn't look very new to me.



posted on Jun, 26 2008 @ 11:10 AM
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The second law of thermodynamics is not really a law, it is an observation of the statistical behavior of a large collection of microscopic objects.

Consider the law applied to a pool table, where all the pockets have barriers that bounce the balls back instead of into the pocket. And the pool table has zero friction and zero air resistance, so the balls keep colliding nearly forever, with individual speeds and energies that vary from zero to (rarely) nearly all the kinetic energy of all the balls into one.

The laser here is like a force field. If the atom has enough energy, its kinetic energy lets it penetrate the barrier. The average energy of the pool balls goes down. So energy is not created nor destroyed.

Entropy is simply reversed in this situation. All the excuses in the world are not going to change that face... Worshipers of this law are simply going to find another false idol to worship.



posted on Jun, 26 2008 @ 11:54 AM
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Originally posted by rocksolidbrain
More free knowledge: (Worship the almighty google, guys !)


Free knowledge? Isn't that in violation of the 36th law of capitalism?

Anyway, I had a feeling something to that effect was going on.




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