what has become of the disclosure project?

Originally posted by nexusmagazine

My mistaken assumption until now was that ATS provided a neutrally moderated forum for discussion on topics.

I had not realised the emphasis on exposing charlatans and frauds, and I had not realised that if you are in the 'opposing' camp to a moderator, that they can and do, use their moderator powers to rein you in, while allowing their own 'side' to give free kicks.

You've made this claim repeatedly now, and I for one take complete umbrage at this spurious claim. The only reason any moderation is ever done in a thread is when the T&C is being violated. Yes moderators are permitted to participate in a thread AS MEMBERS, but don't moderate threads in which they participate. Maybe that distinction causes some confusion in some instances, but any assumption that threads aren't moderated neutrally is a result of either bias on the part of the observer, or possibly due to the fact that we're not always perfect.

If you ever feel something is done unfairly, you always have the option of submitting a Complaint/Suggestion from the Member Center to be reviewed by all staff. I can assure you that we're a diverse enough group that the likelihood of virtually ANY topic being subject to a "hey let's get this guy because he isn't on 'our side'", mentality is absolutely laughable. The only "side" recognized by the entire staff is on the side of the T&C, period.

And there isn't specific emphasis on exposing charlatans and frauds. Although how could anyone be against charlatans and frauds being exposed? If everyone follows the T&C and through the natural progression of the activity on a thread, a charlatan is exposed, is that not a good thing?

The only direction or emphasis any of the staff has ever been given is - follow the T&C and keep things on track to the best of your ability and yes, when you need help, ask for it.

I popped into this thread yesterday to ask for things to calm down because it was obviously getting personal and had already crossed the line a couple of times. I hoped by asking for some cooling off, we could avoid the whole edit/warning thing. And a big reason for that is because by the time I got here, there were multiple posts that could have been seen as "actionable" and no matter what we do in that situation, it'll be wrong because it was too heavy handed or we did something to one person and someone else did something the same or worse but nothing was handed out to them. So I'm thinking (twit that I am) that MAYBE if I ask nicely for everyone to get back to topic without the personal attacks that would be sufficient. Obviously not because the very next post was an attack on the staff.

So I'm truly sorry if our 100% volunteer staff isn't able to read every post on every thread and make every subjective call in a way that will satisfy 100% of the membership.

My advice would be to avoid the moderation completely by following the T&C and if you need some help ask for it.

Now back to "What has become of the disclosure project?"

Originally posted by LateApexer313
I don't understand why you are defending him so zealously. Are you a friend of his in real life? Related to him or something? By marriage? Old school buddies? What? You seem so logical, until I read this thread.

Because, unlike most people, he's actually had personal dealings with Greer, like he said earlier in the thread.

I mentioned before about Nora Maccoby and Todd Hathaway, who also know Greer personally and work with him. Well here they are again, vouching for Greer:

www.green-salon.com...

FINAL ANNOUNCEMENT: Please support The Orion Project with donations, as this R&D group is most likely to bring advanced energy technologies to the public in a timely manner and can reach an audience of millions within 24 hours of public demonstrations. Go to www.theorionproject.org to review progress on their R&D initiatives and to submit donations to ensure timely completion and demonstration of advanced energy technology R&D projects spearheaded by their group of volunteers/researchers. Prayers are also appreciated and essential for success.

-Todd Hathaway & Nora Maccoby

It's also interesting to note that, unlike Greer, they actually name a whole bunch of the new energy inventors

Nora and Todd, James Gilliland, and Duncan here, all people who actually KNOW Greer, all vouching for him..... HMMM......

Originally posted by yeahright

Originally posted by nexusmagazine

My mistaken assumption until now was that ATS provided a neutrally moderated forum for discussion on topics.

I had not realised the emphasis on exposing charlatans and frauds, and I had not realised that if you are in the 'opposing' camp to a moderator, that they can and do, use their moderator powers to rein you in, while allowing their own 'side' to give free kicks.

Originally posted by yeahright
You've made this claim repeatedly now, and I for one take complete umbrage at this spurious claim. The only reason any moderation is ever done in a thread is when the T&C is being violated. Yes moderators are permitted to participate in a thread AS MEMBERS, but don't moderate threads in which they participate. Maybe that distinction causes some confusion in some instances, but any assumption that threads aren't moderated neutrally is a result of either bias on the part of the observer, or possibly due to the fact that we're not always perfect.

Suit yourself, but the lack of moderator neutrality in this thread is obvious. Go back and read the posts for yourself.

Originally posted by yeahright
If you ever feel something is done unfairly, you always have the option of submitting a Complaint/Suggestion from the Member Center to be reviewed by all staff. I can assure you that we're a diverse enough group that the likelihood of virtually ANY topic being subject to a "hey let's get this guy because he isn't on 'our side'", mentality is absolutely laughable. The only "side" recognized by the entire staff is on the side of the T&C, period.

Fair enough - but you have to admit, when the moderators, super moderators, CEO and site owners are all saying Greer is a charlatan, and that that justifies their bias - the idea of submitting a complaint is a tad useless.

Originally posted by yeahright
And there isn't specific emphasis on exposing charlatans and frauds. Although how could anyone be against charlatans and frauds being exposed? If everyone follows the T&C and through the natural progression of the activity on a thread, a charlatan is exposed, is that not a good thing?

Um - go and read the site owner's own comment to me. I'm certainly not against charlatans being exposed - but in this case, where is/was the evidence that Greer is a charlatan? Any convictions? Any testimonies from workshoppers who feel ripped off? All I have seen is a school yard level of lynch mob mentality - with no evidence other than personal opinion and bias. I need more than this before I will change my beliefs so readily.

Originally posted by yeahright
So I'm truly sorry if our 100% volunteer staff isn't able to read every post on every thread and make every subjective call in a way that will satisfy 100% of the membership.

Wow! I genuinely didn't realise the staff were 100% volunteers. I saw several references to various payments and wages amongst moderators in one thread, and I assumed you guys were getting paid. If you are indeed even 50% volunteers, then I formally apologise, bow, and take my hat off to you all. You truly have my respect!!

Duncan

Originally posted by LateApexer313
I was all on his bandwagon 6 months ago when I found the whole "Disclosure Project" and the video of him at the Press Club along with the testimony given there etc

Let me get this straight, you found out about the Disclosure Project a whole 6 months ago??????? And you consider yourself qualified to make that judgement call on Greer?

Yes, he needs financial backing, but he's not seeking to fleece the vulnerable. He's after the dollars of the wealthy of those who want to make a difference. Not someone who is going to buy out the technology and send it underground. He's after the serious dollars, not the poor bewildered mom-and-pop ufo nuts that you infer. He's stressed this in most of his radio interviews. And there's nothing wrong with that. Free energy requires serious dollars from well-intentioned sources to get off the ground. Not just 20-40 bucks here and there from buying dvds like you did. That's just kids stuff. That's just to cover costs of manufacture / distribution. The dollars Greer is looking for is the BIG DOSH! And there's nothing wrong with that, considering his mission.

And I noticed the homosexual claim has been removed, but a slur remains courtesy of the esteemed 'dB' regarding Greer's body language in conferences which apparently gives it all away. How is that any different to the comment that got removed? As Nexus says, there's a definite double standard going on here. I know a few people who act and make movements, come across like a homosexual would, but turns out they are not gay at all - and my assumptions turn out completely unfounded! Not that there's anything wrong with that anyway (quoting that famous Seinfeld episode).

[edit on 4-7-2008 by RiotComing]

Originally posted by LateApexer313
reply to post by nexusmagazine

 

Nexus...

I am just a girl on ATS with a side interest in UFOs...I am not in the "UFO scene" nor do I have any ties to ATS other then loving the threads here....I am most assuredly smarter then the average person, but certainly not a member of MENSA.

I have no dog in this fight. Any person with average common sense if given the facts, can deduce that Steven Greer is strictly in this deal for the cashola. Sure, at first, he might not have been, but I doubt that.

I was all on his bandwagon 6 months ago when I found the whole "Disclosure Project" and the video of him at the Press Club along with the testimony given there etc, and went to his site, bought the DVD to watch these people giving their story and giving their evidence because I am interested in the topic.

I don't regret buying it, because if I recall it was only like $20 or $40. Very reasonable....but that was BEFORE I knew enough to research Greer himself, before I know what I know now.

As a thinking, logical person, reading all the facts of Greer, all the videos, all the brouhaha it's quite obvious to anyone, even believers in UFOs, that he's only in it for the buck. Either that or he's gone off the deep end mentally...but if that were the case he'd just be raving and not charging.

I don't need ATS to tell me he's a charlatan, it's quite apparent.

You go on and on about "other lecturers" etc...

There's a BIG difference between people that are truly interested and out on the lecture circuit and just covering their expenses....

And people like Greer, who I believe IMO, is out to totally FLEECE people and who is relying on this BULL to totally supplement his complete income....I sincerely believe he is purposely and with much advance planning, preying on gullible people to make his living. You can come to no other conclusion if you have even a shred of common sense.

I came to this conclusion before I ever got to ATS.

I don't understand why you are defending him so zealously. Are you a friend of his in real life? Related to him or something? By marriage? Old school buddies? What? You seem so logical, until I read this thread.

Do you really truly believe the garbage that's coming out of his web site and that continues to come out of his very mouth?

Doesn't compute.

Okay. Imagine you are walking down a street one day, and you see someone you know being bashed by a gang. Imagine this is someone you have dealt with in business and research, and someone who lots of people you respect, also respect. I realise in America that stepping in to help someone mugged is not looked upon with any admiration, but in my personal world view, I find it hard to ignore someone being lynched by a mob.

In my world view, people are innocent until shown to be guilty.

Look, I don't like the reports of his workshops any more than you do - but until I have done one of his workshops, or have a reliable source who has done a workshop of Greer's, then I remain professionally of the opinion that Greer is just one of thousands of Americans conducting bizarre workshops on any given weekend. All I am seeing here is heresay evidence. Show me something better if you have it.

If anyone on this thread has had PERSONAL dealings with Greer, that PROVE he is guilty of being a fraud - then I want to see/hear it. So far, we have been offered the Paracast interview, which ironically did NOT make Greer look stupid, it made the interviewers look stupid with their weird hate session at the end. For moderators to cite this interview as evidence of guilt is even more bizarre - so yes, I am going to express my views.

If anyone on this thread has personally done a Greer workshop then I want to hear about it. If you have a best friend who did it - I would like to know about it. So far the ONLY gripes I hear about Greer are the following:
- that he is an ego maniac (so what?)
- that he is in it only for the money - (that I will never believe after dealing with him, his organisation, and with many of his 'peers')
- that he says all aliens are 'nice' (he doesn't say ALL aliens are nice)
- that he has been 'got at' (who knows)
- that his workshops are evidence of him being a charlatan (sorry, I need more evidence from someone who has personal experience in this dept)

I deal with many writers, researcher and event organisers - in many countries. I am constantly updating my list of people who become 'dodgy'. But I refuse to put people on that list until I have either personal experience, or until I have proof. I am sorry to say that the OPINIONS that people may have about the contents of his workshops are not enough for me - especially if they have not had PERSONAL experience themselves.

If the best evidence of Greer being a fraud or charlatan is amongst that posted on this thread, then I am very sorry - but it is nowhere near good enough for me to put Greer on the 'dodgy' list.

I hope this answers your question.

Duncan

Originally posted by nexusmagazine
If anyone on this thread has personally done a Greer workshop then I want to hear about it. If you have a best friend who did it - I would like to know about it.

We did have this guy last year, Lalancette, who claimed to have been on a CSETI training, and he said it was legit. He was also a Disclosure Project rep.

Of course, a lot of people ganged up on him, all the time, he started getting angry and insulting people, and he got banned

- that he is in it only for the money - (that I will never believe after dealing with him, his organisation, and with many of his 'peers')

Duncan, if you can add to my list of people who have worked directly with Greer and who can vouch for him, please do!!

No actually it left me more puzzled then I was before.

And I don't have to quote your entire post to respond either.

Your scenario about "Say you are walking down the street" etc. is ridiculous.

What does that have to do with YOU personally defending Greer?

He put himself well out in the public eye, which, by law, makes him subject to any and all scrutiny of what he says, what he posts on any sight, what he says in interviews, and what he claims on any and all web sites associated with him.

I am on his mailing list due to purchasing the Disclosure Project DVD from his site. That included a password to his site's "secret files" of which, there were none. All smoke and mirrors and more promises of evidence which never get delivered.

I have gotten e-mails from his site about him "needing frequent flier miles donated" so he doesn't have to fly coach...I get the e-mails of his new project begging for cash...I don't have to post anything on here, I don't even have to list interviews with him....his track record on JUST the Disclosure Project is enough to let even the most non-thinking person know that he's scamming people. All talk, no action. I assume you're on his mailing list as well. Tell me I am lying here.

I am not questioning your right to believe every outlandish thing that he says and does...I am questioning your motives in coming on here and defending him, in claiming to believe his hogwash and your motives as a member of the supposed "media" since you are a publisher of a magazine and here you sit, on a thread on a site you do nothing but criticize, who's owners you do nothing but run down and take pot shots at.....and who you keep dodging the simplest of questions from everyday members of ATS like myself.

Once again...

I ask you....

What's your connection to Greer, why do you get so heated about anyone RIGHTFULLY criticizing his motives when it IS obvious he's a charlatan to anyone with a brain?

I am going to quote you on this part of your post, to illustrate how far out on the fringe you are with dealing with JUST MY POST before this one:

If anyone on this thread has personally done a Greer workshop then I want to hear about it. If you have a best friend who did it - I would like to know about it. So far the ONLY gripes I hear about Greer are the following:
- that he is an ego maniac (so what?)

I never once said anything about him personally except that he's an obvious charlatan.

- that he is in it only for the money - (that I will never believe after dealing with him, his organisation, and with many of his 'peers')

So how much money have you paid to see his "evidence"? I admitted to being duped out of about $40, how much have you PAID, and what information, have you gained for your money?

- that he says all aliens are 'nice' (he doesn't say ALL aliens are nice)

And he knows this how? Where's the proof? And I never brought this up either.

- that he has been 'got at' (who knows)

Never said a word about that, don't believe it for a second. Makes me laugh to even see that in type. You must mean to say that to "conspiracy" people.

- that his workshops are evidence of him being a charlatan (sorry, I need more evidence from someone who has personal experience in this dept)

I don't know anything about his workshops, I thought he was a scammer way before I even heard about those....

Those "workshops" of his where people have to sign a non-disclosure contract make me howl with laughter...they are just another cherry on top of the Charlatan Sundae that is Greer...it's actually laughable to me that you still sit here and defend him....and that you brought up all these points, of things that I never said or brought up...and that you quoted my whole entire post then didn't respond to one THING in it

I am actually surprised that Springer, SO and Jritzman even responded to your posts...because if a simple member of ATS with no special knowledge /skills can blow you out of the water along with all of your points....along with you basically whining about moderator bias etc...as I read all through this thread...first you're storming off like a teenager who gets their cell phone taken away...then a few others placate you and you say you will stay etc...then you gripe and wail some more...

Is this any way for a grown person to act, in a thread debating a very prominent and controversial figure in the UFO community?

If Greer is some sort of icon for you or idol....then why bother posting in a thread like this that will obviously press your buttons and why keep dragging it on and on with meaningles points that I didn't even say or even insinuate?

I am sorry this is so long and if this is seen as a personal attack I will take my punishment.... but when you criticize and keep insinuating that moderators/owners on this sight are on "this side or that" and I see you continuously picking the fight and you know you are.... If you believe in Greer, that's your choice....

You've obviously have a motive here, and you won't admit it IMO. And if you don't? Then keep drinking that Kool Aid.

reply to post by stealthyaroura
Nothing has become of anything. There has to be a beginning of something to have an end to it. Didn't they teach you that in science, or history or whatever class that may have a relevance in this?

Originally posted by LateApexer313
No actually it left me more puzzled then I was before.

Once again...

I ask you....

What's your connection to Greer, why do you get so heated about anyone RIGHTFULLY criticizing his motives when it IS obvious he's a charlatan to anyone with a brain?

The reason I get 'heated' up is probably the same reason YOU get heated up. We both care about perceived injustices, and we both don't like con men and charlatans.

My connections to Greer are professional. I have exchanged information; discussed his participation in conferences; and have published bits and pieces about his efforts to get disclosure since the mid-90s. I have had professional dealings with many of the 'whistleblowers' at the National Press Club launch, in some cases from years before Greer came along. Not one of them had a bad thing to say about Greer's ethics or motives. If any of them have changed their minds, then I would love to know about it.

I am also on Greer's mailing list, and sure I receive solicitations for support - but I haven't seen anything I'd call outrageous or out of the ordinary. I am on many mailing lists of many diverse organisations, and they ALL send out solicitations. It seems to be standard operating procedure to do this if you are a non-profit or charity organisation.

It is clear that plenty of people are unhappy at Greer's beliefs, as expressed in his book and his workshops (I assume, although none of us here have ever done one it would seem).

I personally believe Greer believes his own 'stuff', and that this is what motivates him.

I accept that others think his beliefs are so far out and nonsensical that this becomes defacto 'evidence' of his fraud and deceit. I happen to disagree.

Surely, the fact that people are capable of having such different beliefs is not automatic 'evidence' of some fraud?

I need better evidence than your proclamation, for the assertion that Greer is consciously making all this up just for money and ego - because it just don't gel with my own dealings with the guy, or my research on him amongst his 'peers'.

Duncan

PS: And puleeez - before people start slagging off that MY only motives for defending Greer are money and magazine promotion - let me say that more money has gone from me to Greer, than will ever come back as a result of how it was spent. In my part of the universe Greer does not represent money in the wallet - probably the opposite in fact.

Originally posted by doctormcauley
Try to prove me wrong. None of you will.

Well we can't do that. Why? Because the innuendo and defamatory insinuations are emanating solely from the inner recesses of your imagination!

Here we go again. The burden of proof is on YOU. To continually bait the thread with misleading unproven assumptions on an individual is poor form.

Nobody on this thread has given a single valid reason to dump on Greer. It's all cheap shots and sleazy low blows. You all call yourselves serious researchers.. you sure have a funny way of showing it.

reply to post by RiotComing

Nobody on this thread has given a single valid reason to dump on Greer.

well how about these claims on the hall of shame list...

Reportedly plagiarizes the UFO work of others and sells as his own, sells do-it-yourself ET contact kits - now you too can steer in extraterrestrial spacecraft with a flashlight and never record them just like Doc Greer does. Made claims of contacting extraterrestrials through meditation. Claimed that U.S. military forces attacked a Colorado ET base inside a mountain using nerve gas, no evidence to back claim. Had dinner with CIA Director and spun tale of having briefed CIA Director about ETs for hours. Hosted press conference with credible UFO witnesses on Capitol Hill - ruined it and his own credibility by selling the work of others with his name on it and using bogus witnesses. Allegeldy attempted to charge Washington State MUFON members $2500.00 each to demonstrate how he can vector in UFOs - Greer got to choose the location and the time...mmmmmm. SEE: Doc Greer Sells The Truth, Greer: UFOlogy's Own Worst Enemy, CSETI, Greer's claim of military attacking ET underground base with nerve gas, and a refutation of Greer's claims of having briefed the CIA on UFOs.

www.ufowatchdog.com...
Hall3

www.ufowatchdog.com...
Doc Greer Sells You 'The Truth'

www.ufowatchdog.com...
Steven Greer: UFOlogy's Own Worst Enemy


to keep asking for donations with no clear or good reason of how the money is going to be spent is a crime imo. if i was to ask for donations from people i would at least have clear benchmarked objectives so people could have some value in their donations.

i was in sales for many years and can spot a salesman a mile away and Mr. Greer is selling you all and you can't even see it. he is doing a good job at it...he has you bamboozled.





wow it is so obvious that Greer is out to get your money look at his donations page and tell me with all honesty that you believe he is not out to sell you.

www.disclosureproject.org...
The Disclosure Project - Shopping


gee for 9999.00 i don't get any cseti training but for just one dollar more you do get it...lmao

there is not one thing listed on this website that would make me donate any money to him.

anybody care to point out what these donations are being spent on ?

[edit on 5-7-2008 by easynow]

reply to post by easynow

UFO Watchdog to you is a credible debunking site? Do you seriously think the site is of any edifiable use to anybody? Most the page links on the site don't even work! I mean, come on!

reply to post by RiotComing


well if you noticed i wrote 'these claims' in my post so obviously i wasn't sure of the credibility of them either.

can you debunk these claims ? i doubt it

what in your opinion is a credible debunking site ?....

to keep asking for donations with no clear or good reason of how the money is going to be spent is a crime imo. if i was to ask for donations from people i would at least have clear benchmarked objectives so people could have some value in their donations.

you will comment on a link i posted but you won't comment on the rest of my post i see.....

[edit on 5-7-2008 by easynow]

Originally posted by nexusmagazine

PS: And puleeez - before people start slagging off that MY only motives for defending Greer are money and magazine promotion - let me say that more money has gone from me to Greer, than will ever come back as a result of how it was spent.

Paging Mr. Barnum...

LOL!

dB

Originally posted by MrdDstrbr

Hey, wait a minute, you and jritzmann are the resident imaging experts, right?

And you say you are NOT debunkers, but legit investigators, right?

Well, why don't you guys make yourselves useful, and analyze Greer's CSETI footage?

[edit on 4-7-2008 by MrdDstrbr]

Prior to his last interview (The Paracast has done three interviews with Greer), we asked him to provide us with some of his CSETI video more than a couple of times. He said he would, but never followed through with it. Like that was a huge surprise...

And as far as the "make yourselves useful" comment - stick it. Jeff & I give lots of our time to do research on images, and we'd rather not waste our time on known scam artists. Been there, done that, and all I have to show for it is the scorn of dolts.

dB

dB

Click here for more information.

Originally posted by doctormcauley
reply to post by nexusmagazine

 

"PS: And puleeez - before people start slagging off that MY only motives for defending Greer are money and magazine promotion - let me say that more money has gone from me to Greer, than will ever come back as a result of how it was spent. In my part of the universe Greer does not represent money in the wallet - probably the opposite in fact."

Why should we listen to someone dumb enough to send their savings to Pt Barnum? Erm, Steven Greer?

I bet you thought you were really contributing something special

..When all you were doing was degrading yourself and those who raised you. Good job.

I send money to many diverse organisations, particularly when they are calling for funds to kick off projects like the National Press Club event and the Disclosure Project.

Yes, I consider that event something special.

If you think I am dumb, put me on your ignore list. You are going on mine.

Duncan

Originally posted by LateApexer313
What's your connection to Greer, why do you get so heated about anyone RIGHTFULLY criticizing his motives when it IS obvious he's a charlatan to anyone with a brain?

"You are stupid for believing anything Greer says. It's obvious to all us smart people with brains that he's a charlatan."

Are these personal attacks really necessary, LateApexer?

I am actually surprised that Springer, SO and Jritzman even responded to your posts...because if a simple member of ATS with no special knowledge /skills can blow you out of the water along with all of your points....

But, see, the simple fact is that you haven't blown anything out of the water.

Have you been on a CSETI training yourself? No. So the fact is, you don't know for sure if that's a scam or not. You can say "well obviously it's a scam", but that's not the same as KNOWING.

Have you followed Greer around for a week, or even a day, to see if he really meets with all these insiders and important people like he says he does? No. So you don't know for sure about that either.

Have you met with all these new energy scientists and inventors, like the ones listed at green-salon.com, to see if they really have something? No.

Have you talked with people who actually know Greer and who work with him, to see what they say about him, like Duncan and I have? No.

You can proudly trumpet the fact that Springer, and davidbiedny and jritzmann are on your side, but the fact is, they don't know for sure either, any more than you do.

They haven't been out on a CSETI training, or to Gilliland's ranch, to see for themselves. They haven't met with Greer to see what all he has, or doesn't have. They haven't met with the new energy scientists and inventors. They don't know for sure any more than you do. They are just as guilty of "armchair debunking" as you.

(That's right, I said it! And I'll say it again too! )

Is this any way for a grown person to act, in a thread debating a very prominent and controversial figure in the UFO community?

"You are immature" - more personal attacks. Sigh.....

You've obviously have a motive here, and you won't admit it IMO. And if you don't? Then keep drinking that Kool Aid.

MORE personal attacks. For shame, LateApexer!

Originally posted by davidbiedny
Prior to his last interview (The Paracast has done three interviews with Greer), we asked him to provide us with some of his CSETI video more than a couple of times. He said he would, but never followed through with it. Like that was a huge surprise...

Okay, fair enough, but you don't know whether that was intentional on his part, or if he just never got around to it, due to being extremely busy etc.

And as far as the "make yourselves useful" comment - stick it. Jeff & I give lots of our time to do research on images, and we'd rather not waste our time on known scam artists. Been there, done that, and all I have to show for it is the scorn of dolts.

You and Jeff wanted to see CSETI footage - *I* found it for you.

As far as I'm concerned, if you refuse to even check out these DVDs, you are not denying ignorance, but basking and frolicking in it.

The ATS community has been griping and demanding to see the footage for years, I finally find some, and now its two resident video experts refuse to even take a look? IGNORANT!

Tell you what, if you two order the DVDs and analyze them, and prove that you've done so, I'll even compensate you for them, 150%. You have my word on that. Pass em around to Springer, SO, Gazrok, anyone else who wants to have a peek when you're done. (Just don't make copies or put them up on Youtube or anything - that would be wrong and illegal!)