Originally posted by Valhall Wow...that's a bold statement isn't it? Knowledge puffeth up...lol.

Hmm... maybe you have some thoughts on the biology of spitting forth fire?

Originally posted by Guerilla
Thanks for you Answers,

To me, and this is my own personal opinion, you and Christians like you, are good people.
Thanks for not turning this into a debate.
This ayah is for you.

[002:062] Those who believe (in the Quran), and those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Christians and the Sabians,- any who believe in God and the Last Day, and work righteousness, shall have their reward with their Lord; on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.

Salaam

Thanks

Guerilla

Guerilla...thank you! And thank you for the blessing!

I return one to you, my most favorite prayer in the New Testament:

"For this reason I bow my knees before the Father, from whom every family in heaven and on earth takes its name. I pray that, according to the riches of his glory, he may grant that you may be strengthened in your inner being with power through his Spirit, and that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith, as you are being rooted and grounded in love. I pray that you may have the power to comprehend, with all the saints, what is the breadth and length and height and depth, and to know the love of Christ that surpasses knowledge, so that you may be filled with the fullness of God.

Ephesians 3: 14-19

Though we cannot accept each others beliefs as our own - let us accept each other as we are. Let's live in peace and learn together!

Explain this one SimpleTruth

Also, let us look at Hebrews 11:17 "By faith Abraham, when God tested him, offered Isaac as a sacrifice. He who had received the promises was about to sacrifice his one and only son...." Abraham had two sons: Ishmael and Isaac. Ishmael was 13 years older than Isaac. Yet we see that "his one and only son" expression was used for Isaac. The Bible uses expressions like this to magnify people or to glorify someone on a certain occasion. The Bible in this verse glorifies Isaac for being the chosen sacrifice to God, according to what the Jews and Christians claim in their corrupted Bible. So Jesus being God's "only begotten Son" in John 3:16 doesn't make him God nor the only Son of God.

So why did the bible say that he was going to sacfrice his only son when he had two sons?

the sons and daughters of God.

The inconsistencies of the Bible do no lay within, but in each's interpretation of such.

Originally posted by madmanacrosswater
the sons and daughters of God.

The inconsistencies of the Bible do no lay within, but in each's interpretation of such.

enough said!

besides, its just a book anyways, we might as well be having a debate over the inconsistencies in alice and wonderland! (actually.....thats a very interesting discussion right there)

SimpleTruth, I am an athiest but, if u could explain
'Noahs Ark', in practical terms that would be cool!
To me, it's impossible due to a lot of factors,
S.

Originally posted by sanctum
Si, it's impossible due to a lot of factors.

I agree with you, But alot of the bible is impossible, spliting the sea, talking to god, resurection...... Atleast impossible, to how life is seen now.

Originally posted by SimpleTruth

Ok, your first criticism was that God created man just to be a gardener for His garden. Well, God created people for two reasons. The foremost reason was to, yes, serve Him, but not as gardeners, but as to praise and worship Him and to spread His glory.

Genesis never says that. God created Adam then put him to work in the garden, end of. Everthing else you say is just your belief with nothing to back it up. You are just "padding" it out with stuff that isn't there.

Secondly, He made us because of His desire to share His love with a creation, and for us to be benefactors of that love. And about the garden, it's funny to consider that God even needed a garden. He doesn't need one, and therefore doesn't need gardeners. If He needed one, well He would be here on earth stuck in one today. No, the purpose of the garden, and of earth in general was to provide humans with a place to live and a means to sustain them. He had them tend to it because He gave Adam domain over Eden. It was his. If you own something, you need to tend it, whether you own your own business or a piece of property or car or what have you. To be able to tend the garden was a privilege because God gave it to Adam to command as his own!! Not as a chore! Unless, you are someone who wants no ownership of anything, you should understand this very well. But you say it gives no reason as to why He created us. These become apparent as you read the bible.

And again, this is nothing more than your opinion (or Christian belief whatever you want to call it). Because none of this is stated. Again you are just twisting what is actually written.

Your next criticism is of God lying to Adam and Eve about their death. First, realize this. Before they ate the fruit, they had not sinned as of yet. They had intimate contact and communion with God on a level that we cannot experience today. Their spirits were completely pure and not marred at all. However, in the act of sinning, their spirits lost purity and were pulled away from God. Why? Because if God is to be God, He cannot have sin or evil Himself, nor be amongst it, even commune with it on that same intimate level. He is the epitome of purity and love.

So its OK for him to create something that is capable of creating evil? Is he not connected to it by this?

So basically, the sin set a barrier between man and God. THIS is what God refers to as their death.

Care to give me a quote that proves this? The serpent seemed to understand the word "death".

Death originally means to be apart or disconnected from God, so this makes PERFECT sense.

Again, show me a quote that says this to prove thats it not just your belief/opinion.

Also, Adam and Eve lost their immortality, and so would later die in flesh as well. And no, God didn't want to keep them from eating the fruit to keep them dumb, but so they could remain with Him, because He desires to be with us and love us. So God speaks TRUTH of their death.

Then please explain to me why the only thing that changed was they realised they were naked after eating it.

Next. The serpent comes along. You say He tells the truth. Only partially. Yes, he's correct when he tells them they will gain certain knowledge. But the knowledge is of what it's like to be apart from God, as satan was.

Who said that this serpent was apart from god? Everything is brand new here, I didn't know Satan had "fallen" yet?

It's knowledge in the sense that now, Adam and Eve realized they didn't HAVE to follow God. But, just because a new option for a course of action appears for you in life, doesn't mean that it's automatically better. Satan decieved Adam and Eve in order to disrupt their relationship before. And as a result, the PARADISE and carefree ways of life were ENDED for Adam and Eve, because of satan's influence and malicious lies.

I personally don't see that as paradise, and im sure there are many other people that don't. I also don't see how it was carefree for Adam and Eve, maybe it would have been if THEY had gardeners to do their work for them. And again you say the word "lies", tell me exactly what was a lie? The serpent never said that they would stay with god, he never said they wouldn't be thrown out and I'm pretty sure both Adam and Eve knew that they would be before they ate the fruit.

Next, let's look at the criticism about the name of Adam. You are at least partially correct of your translation. I know that Adam implies earth or of the earth. I have not heard of the blood, but that's fine, I give you the benefit of the doubt. You don't think the way God refers to humans is respectful. Well, a couple points on that. First of all, He doesn't refer to Adam as WHO he is, but WHAT he is. You're right there I guess. Well, do you not like it when parents refer to children as kids, or child, or son or daughter? If a dad has a few boys, and calls to one of them, "come here my son", he is not specifying the certain boy. He is using a term that is generalized for all his boys and not by the son's own name.

I find this hard to believe. If this is true then why doesnt god call him "my son" or "child" or whatever like dads do? My dad never said to me "hey come here one made of sperm".

Secondly, earlier in the bible, God says He made man in His own image. So, if God was disrespecting Adam, then He would be disrespecting Himself as well. Third, I just don't think this is a big deal.

Depends what you mean by "image", God wouldnt be disrespecting himself because surely god isnt made from flesh and blood? Obvsiously humans are not identicle to gods image, he is always refered to as "he" so i presume the women here are not created in gods image? If men are the same as god why would god need a penis? There are no other gods are their? He doesnt procreate does he? Maybe im being stupid here but it just doesnt make sense to me. Why would god ever need a physical body anyway? If we were created in gods image then that implies that god himself is a physical biped mamal! It doesn't make sense.

So, let's recap: On one hand we have the all loving God. He created man to share His love with and to have him glorify Him and spread His glory. He granted Adam control over the garden and animals as an amazing privelege, not to be gardeners, because God doesn't care about having a garden other than it was necessary to provide a living place for people. His warning of death was truth and warned because He didn't want His intimate connection with Adam and Eve to be broken. He knew that if they did, they would be cast out and suffering would ensue afterwards. This is evident today as you look at the way of the world. He did not want this for His creation.

Then he messed up big time, this world is just wrong!
So why doesn't he try again?

AND THIS IS IMPORTANT! : I know this has nothing to do with the bible and christianity but I would like the opinion of a christian on this: why did god mess about making dinosours? Why was this missing from the bible?

So would you have preferred to remain in paradise as God had intended, or do you have preference to suffering of the world by way of satan? God, or satan?

It's people that # this world up, i've never seen Satan do anything and I've never seen god try to help.

Last comment. Your take on Genesis is very interesting. It's impressive actually because of certain insights you show. But think of this: If satan were the one who cared for us, and God the one who decieved us, why would God in his deception, give us a chance to hear of the "good" thing satan did for us in the very book that describes and glorifies Him? A deceitful God wouldn't. That, perhaps, is the most convincing and simple truth out of all these arguments of why you have it backwards. I hope that helps!

Because its just a historical record thats why its there. It simply tells what happened.

BTW who wrote genesis?

You say you know Hebrew and have been comparing it with translations? I would be very interested to hear your opinion on the translation of Isaiah 14:12.

Also have you started any of those other threads you mentioned yet? I like the sound of them

Sorry if I sound harsh/offensive, I don't mean to.

A couple more questions about Genesis have just sprung to mind:

1) Is Genesis telling of the creation of Earth or the whole universe?

2) What is gods reason for creating the whole universe if all he created was us humans on Earth?

3) Whats the deal with all the evolution thats been discovered? God created everything as-is didn't he?

4) If god create us to just share his love whats his reasons for angels?

5) An eternity in hell for sinning doesn't sound very forgiving to me, can you explain this?

I may have more questions depending on the answers given here.

Originally posted by sugeshotcha
Simpletruth: so why would God try to harm people by creating gene deformities?? Also which passages in the bible say that God introduced these genetic deformities to the incestous procreating man and woman??

Ok, all God did was cast them out of Eden. The gene deformities and curse were a result of the sin that Adam and Eve committed. God didn't curse them. If I said that God did earlier, sorry for the confusion. Understand that, before they sinned, their bodies were perfectly free from any sort of sickness or imperfections at all. More importantly, their spirits or souls were clean, pure from sin. (Sin is nothing more than falling short of God or missing the mark) So by sinning, their spirits could no longer be with God. (Remember, they were at a level where God would interact with them in the garden. He would walk with them)

So they sin, God who is perfect would no longer stay with them at that level of intimacy or He would cease to be perfect, God banished them from Eden, and so the perfection that A&E once enjoyed was gone, and they were left to live a harsher life, with the mark of sin to wear away at them. And so with every generation, withouth the shelter of God's direct contact and their spirits impure, the sin remained and slowly, each generation was slightly less like Adam and Eve and slightly more like the way we are today. You will see that in Genesis 5, the ages that each man lives to is lessened each generation.

So basically, they fell away from God and were left with this sin that they had done to slowly damage and corrupt. Each generation became less pure, spirit and blood wise (and so causing deformities) as time went on because it had been that much longer since Eden. By Moses time, the degeneration had come to the point that close relatives could not have offspring. And I described most of it in that first post about incest and genetics.

Originally posted by Guerilla
Hi there again,
Those are great answers, but you are not providing me with proofs, please brother if you don’t mind I would like some proofs on what you are saying, if its ok and if you have time that is.

I would like some proof of when and where in the OT, did they predict he will die, I would also like the word Die in the prophecy too.

“Many Jews saw Him for what He was and became Christians”
Would it be right for us to call them “Christians”, or that they were following the message that Jesus(pbuh) came down to tell them?
Most of them that did choose to follow Prophet Jesus(pbuh) would have infact done everything that he taught them to do, so they would probly go to the temples to pray, Circumcise(If that’s how u spell it) there Kids and follow the Laws of the Torah-(The real Laws). Just as Prophet Jesus(pbuh) asked them too, or am I wrong?
So if im not wrong, and if some Jews did infact follow him, before St Paul came along, it is safe to say that they had just reverted back to the Law?

Now if I am correct on this, what has happened to the present day “Christians”?
Why is it that when I ask a Christian, Aren’t you ment to follow The Law?
Some of them say, “We are free from Laws”, what does that mean, please explain?

Salaam, Thanks

Guerilla

No problem. Let me refer to you some different passages and verses from the old testament that foretell Jesus' life and death. First of all, if you read my signature, that's from Isaiah of the OT talking about the Christ. Now this passage doesn't say death, but he tells of how He will be pierced for our transgressions. This in fact DID happen. After Jesus had suffered on the cross for many hours, He appeared dead. An earthquake then started, so the Roman guards who were monitering the crucifixion were scared and needed to leave. But they needed to make sure He was truly dead as that was there duty, and so pierced His side with a spear. This was common procedure in all crucifixions, so we can be confident in this. However, crucifixions had not yet been "invented" in Isaiah's time. Despite this, his message is accurate, supporting that he was told by God. In this way it fulfilled Isaiah's prophecy. But let me give you more examples.

If you read about Abraham in Genesis, you will come to the part where God has an angel ask him to sacrifice his son Isaac. (GEN 22) This whole event foreshadows Jesus' future sacrifice to a "T". Now, God had PROMISED Abraham earlier that he would have a son, and his son would live and carry on the lineage of Abraham. So Abraham decided to do as God commanded, because if he sacrificed Isaac, he knew that God would HAVE to ressurrect him in order for His promise to be true. (here is a parallel of Jesus' resurrection) So Abraham heads out to a mountain where God told him to carry out the sacrifice, and brings along Isaac, but Isaac doesn't know that he himself is to be sacrificed. So when they make their way up the mountain, Abraham gives Isaac the wood and knife to carry to the place where Isaac is to be sacrificed, and Isaac still does not know. Because Isaac thinks that they will simply sacrifice an animal, he asks "Father, we have the wood and fire, but where is the lamb for the offering?" Then Abraham answers "God Himself will provide the lamb for the burnt offering, my son." (Jesus describes Himself as the Lamb of God throughout the NT) So Isaac continues to follow his dad. When they reach the top, they prepare the alter. Then, to Isaac's surprise, Abraham takes him and lays him down and is about to kill Isaac with the knife. But just before he does so, the angel appears again and tells him to stop. "Abraham! Abraham! Do not lay a hand on the boy. Do not do anything to him. Now I know that you fear God, because you have not withheld from me your son, your only son." (God, later will not withhold His only son, Jesus) And then, sure enough, Abraham suddenly notices a ram caught in a thicket, and they end up using that as the burnt offering. So, what was the point of this? Why did God ask Abraham to do this? Well, possibly to test him, but the main purpose is way more important. The purpose of it was to act out the future sacrifice of Jesus. Abraham acted as the Father, and Isaac Jesus. And, just as Jesus had to carry the very materials of His death Himself (the cross), Isaac is handed the knife and wood for his sacrifice. And amazingly the place where the two were climbing was the EXACT spot that millenia later, Jesus would be carrying His cross to, and be sacrificed. However, when they reach the top, God stops the sacrifice before it happens. Because Isaac is only a young man, and the REAL sacrifice is meant for Christ. And so, the lamb was provided in Isaac's place to have death infliceted upon it. This foretells how Jesus will take the punishment that WE deserve. This is why Abraham had said that "God will provide the lamb for the sacrifice."

Some other referrances:
Messiah was to be born in Bethlehem.
OT prophecy (Micah 5:2)
NT fulfillment (Matthew 2:1-6, Luke 2:1-20)

Messiah was to be born of a virgin.
OT prophecy (Isaiah 7:14)
NT fulfillment (Matthew 1:18-25, Luke 1:26-38)

Messiah was to enter Jerusalem in triumph
OT (Zecheriah 9:9)
NT (Matthew 21:1-9, John 12:12-16)

Messiah was to be rejected by His own people.
OT (Isaiah 53:1-3, Psalm 118:22)
NT (Matthew 26:3-4, John 12:37-43, Acts 4:1-12)

Messiah was to die by crucifixion.
OT (Psalm 22:14-17)
NT (Matthew 27:31, Mark 15:20,25)
This one talks of how He will be nailed through hands and feet

There are more if you want, but that's a sample.

About your question on the difference between christians and jews. Think of it this way: Before Jesus, all jews were jews, but when He came and fulfilled prophecy and said He was the son of God, some followed Him and some didn't. So the jews split here. Those that followed Jesus became christians, and those who didn't we still call jews, even though BOTH sides were technically jewish. Now about the laws of the Torah, some of them were no longer necessary after Christ. For example, animal sacrifices no longer need to happen. Circumcision is no longer required. Things of that nature Jesus had changed. Now, He did not go against the OT because the OT SAID that He would bring these changes, and that some of the law would no longer be necessary, it's just that some of the jews failed to recognize Jesus as the Messiah, and so they still practice all the laws. Christians do not, because they know Jesus brought these changes.

Hi Vall,

Thanks for your answers.

But again can we call them "Christians", or even better yet would Jesus(pbuh) call them Christians??

Because if i am correct didnt Jesus(pbuh) teach his followers of the Law, and the Law talks about The One True God, so infact they would have worshiped The One True God and not Jesus(pbuh) himself?
Because Jesus(pbuh) did infact worship the One God, or didnt he??

Also can i get the passage of where Paul and Peter had an argument about this issue please, if it possible.

Salaam, thanks

Guerilla

Originally posted by Valhall
Christ is not to be worshipped in any form or fashion.

Christ, in fact, did worship God and taught that the great commandment was to Love God with all your heart and all your soul and to love your brother as yourself.

That pretty much sums it up there...Jesus taught to get your priorities straight.

The early Christians did not worship Christ, they worshipped the one true God that he came to share with the world. Modern Christians (if they know what they're doing!) do not worship Christ. They worship the one true God.

They uphold Christ as their mediator to the one true God, because that in essence is what he did. He replaced the archaid Judeaic system of the High Priest mediating between the laity and God...Christ now does that for us. We do not pray to Christ, but we pray in his name as the mediator who stand before the one true God and petition for us and our needs.

I will look that scripture up now and post it here.

[Edited on 8-3-2004 by Valhall]

Guerilla, Christians DO in fact share ALL of the same OT beliefs as Jews. The difference is that when the time came, and Jesus came as the Messiah, His christian followers no longer practiced SOME of the OT laws because they were unnecessary from that point forward. So, yes they still had jewish traditions and prayed. The God of jews and christians is the SAME. The dispute is on whether Jesus was the Messiah.

And Valhall, you are very wrong about worshipping Jesus. Jesus did teach to love God and He prayed to Him. BUT! Jesus IS God in the flesh! Therefore, we are to pray to Him and love Him as well. Jesus and God the Father are two parts of the SAME God. God and Jesus were two entities of God that existed simultaneously!There is SO much written about this in the bible!

Jesus IS God!
Matthew 1:20-23

His authority!
Mark 1:22-24

Says that anything the Father does, He can and will do!
John 5:19-30

The Father lives within Me!
John 14:9-14

Through Jesus all things are made!
John 1:1-5

I can list TONS more! The point is, Jesus was not simply a prophet, but God in the flesh! He IS to be worshipped and praised. Just look at those verses. I will give more if you need more.

I hope you can see it in my view as a Muslim and this also goes for the Jews too, but we must be wrong about, that God can hear us in our prayers. so in order for our prayers to get to God, we must pray to Jesus(pbuh)?

Although i might have been wrong about Christians praying to Jesus(pbuh), why is it then that Most/some Christians like my Uncle say that Jesus(pbuh) is god, and so they Pray in his name?
Does that mean that you and my uncle are complete oposites?
Dont get me wrong my Uncle is a Devot Christian man, i can send you all the stuff i have to rebuttle against him. He sends me countless amounts of emails, telling me how bad Muhammad(pbuh) is, yet he doesnt even know how to spell his name
But even though i still love and respect him as my uncle, and no matter how much things he can try to accuse Prophet Muhammad(pbuh), I still answer all his questiones, in full detail, most of the time through the help of some brothers.

Thanks Heaps

Guerilla

Originally posted by Valhall
If your uncle prays to Jesus instead of God...yes, him and I would believe different.

There is no foundation to praying to Jesus instead of God. When Jesus was on earth he was emphatic that the authority that he had at that time was strictly from the Father. He also was very clear that he was not omniscient - only the Father knew certain things.

Maybe one of the most mistaught and misleading characteristics of Christ is his divine nature. The most misused quote from Christ may very well be "the Father and I are one". I simply do not understand how anyone with a Bible can read the 4 gospel accounts and pick this single quote out - say Christ and God are exactly the same - and then ignore the MULTIPLE isntances of Christ pointing out that he is LESS than God.

The analogy that I like to use is as follows: my bedroom is 100% part of my house. You cannot be in my bedroom without being in my house. You most definitely can be in my house, without being in my bedroom. So, my bedroom is 100% my house, BUT it is not 100% OF my house...my house is more than my bedroom - but they have the same nature (i.e. they are one).

It is an unfortunate twisting of the Gospels and the lack of study by believers that leads to confusion about Christ - and it's a sad, sad situation.

I have been studying the bible up and down, in and out and through and through, and the fact that Jesus IS God is written ALL OVER the bible. See above post! Valhall, you are right that His authority was given by the Father, and He prayed to Him, but that's because He was living as man as well! Because He was man is why He needed God's authority. He came on BEHALF of God AS God! He NEVER said He was LESSER. Anytime He says something like that, does NOT mean He's saying He's NOT God.

So Guerilla, your uncle is right! And almost ALL christians know that Jesus IS God! Praying in His name is very important, and Jesus deserves that.

Originally posted by SkepticOverlord
Jumping in for the fun-of-it...

1) Why is it that two creation stories can be read within Genesis?
Genesis 1:27
Genesis 2:18-

2) Can a being such as God ever get tired?
Isaiah 40:28
but...
Exodus 31:17

3) We know that dragons never existed... but Isaiah seems to think differently.
Isaiah 30:6




[Edited on 8-3-2004 by SkepticOverlord]

1) I already addressed this earlier in the thread. Please refer to that.

2) God rested on the seventh day. Resting is a simple action. It means the subject is not doing anything. There is nothing in the definition of rest that implies that it HAS to be DUE to the fact that the subject is tired. Think of Newton's 3 laws. One of them speaks of objects at rest, remain at rest until something acts on them. Does this mean they are TIRED? Nope.

3) Dragons were used as a name for reptiles. Even today there ARE dragons, because we have named the monitor lizards, komodo dragons. This simply goes back in history. The NIV lists it as snakes instead because people are ignorant of this fact, and so think the bible is talking about flying fire-breathing lizards the size of a house.

Originally posted by DaTruth
Explain this one SimpleTruth

Also, let us look at Hebrews 11:17 "By faith Abraham, when God tested him, offered Isaac as a sacrifice. He who had received the promises was about to sacrifice his one and only son...." Abraham had two sons: Ishmael and Isaac. Ishmael was 13 years older than Isaac. Yet we see that "his one and only son" expression was used for Isaac. The Bible uses expressions like this to magnify people or to glorify someone on a certain occasion. The Bible in this verse glorifies Isaac for being the chosen sacrifice to God, according to what the Jews and Christians claim in their corrupted Bible. So Jesus being God's "only begotten Son" in John 3:16 doesn't make him God nor the only Son of God.

So why did the bible say that he was going to sacfrice his only son when he had two sons?

Good and fair question. Ishmael was conceived out of wed-lock and an illegitimate child according to marriage. God had promised Abraham and Sarah one son before Ishmael. Isaac was the one INTENDED to be the only son by God. However, Abraham committed adultery (even though it was approved by Sarah), but Ishmael was not his true son promised by God, nor was he from Sarah, but Hagar.

Originally posted by sanctum
SimpleTruth, I am an athiest but, if u could explain
'Noahs Ark', in practical terms that would be cool!
To me, it's impossible due to a lot of factors,
S.

Well, that isn't really an inconsistency, but can you specify what you want to know or what doesn't make sense to you? What do you mean by practical terms? I'll be happy to answer if you elaborate a little more. Sorry if I just seem dumb at the question.

Originally posted by SpittinCobra

Originally posted by sanctum
Si, it's impossible due to a lot of factors.

I agree with you, But alot of the bible is impossible, spliting the sea, talking to god, resurection...... Atleast impossible, to how life is seen now.

I agree, those things like the sea splitting IS impossible. These things would NEVER happen in nature. We know this because we understand physics and such and the laws of reality. But guess what? God created this reality, and assigned the rules. So He may manipulate them when He intervenes. You see? All the reasons we have for explaining why those things couldn't happen don't matter and can't apply when God is in the equation.

Originally posted by Faceless

Originally posted by SimpleTruth

Ok, your first criticism was that God created man just to be a gardener for His garden. Well, God created people for two reasons. The foremost reason was to, yes, serve Him, but not as gardeners, but as to praise and worship Him and to spread His glory.

Genesis never says that. God created Adam then put him to work in the garden, end of. Everthing else you say is just your belief with nothing to back it up. You are just "padding" it out with stuff that isn't there.

Genesis doesn't say that, but it IS said throughout the bible. Genesis ALSO doesn't say what you claim silly! So be consistent with your arguments. It simply says that God gave Adam control of it for himself, along with the animals. You can't take a small part of something and judge it without looking at the whole thing. So by the rest of the bible, we know that they WEREN'T gardeners. To even think so would be absurd. God has no need of a garden OR gardeners.

Secondly, He made us because of His desire to share His love with a creation, and for us to be benefactors of that love. And about the garden, it's funny to consider that God even needed a garden. He doesn't need one, and therefore doesn't need gardeners. If He needed one, well He would be here on earth stuck in one today. No, the purpose of the garden, and of earth in general was to provide humans with a place to live and a means to sustain them. He had them tend to it because He gave Adam domain over Eden. It was his. If you own something, you need to tend it, whether you own your own business or a piece of property or car or what have you. To be able to tend the garden was a privilege because God gave it to Adam to command as his own!! Not as a chore! Unless, you are someone who wants no ownership of anything, you should understand this very well. But you say it gives no reason as to why He created us. These become apparent as you read the bible.

And again, this is nothing more than your opinion (or Christian belief whatever you want to call it). Because none of this is stated. Again you are just twisting what is actually written.

And again, I'm not twisting anything, but it's mentioned in other parts. And again, YOUR opinion about the gardeners is just that, an opinion, but has NO support in the ENTIRE bible.

Your next criticism is of God lying to Adam and Eve about their death. First, realize this. Before they ate the fruit, they had not sinned as of yet. They had intimate contact and communion with God on a level that we cannot experience today. Their spirits were completely pure and not marred at all. However, in the act of sinning, their spirits lost purity and were pulled away from God. Why? Because if God is to be God, He cannot have sin or evil Himself, nor be amongst it, even commune with it on that same intimate level. He is the epitome of purity and love.

So its OK for him to create something that is capable of creating evil? Is he not connected to it by this?

First of all, I suppose it's ok for God to create ANYTHING He wants since He calls all the shots and there is no higher authority to say what's right and wrong, or OK and not OK. But He created us, who are capable of evil so that we would have free will and not be FORCED to follow Him. And He's NOT connected, because He did nothing to initiate sin, but only warned and discouraged it. It was human sovereignty and satan that's connected to evil.

So basically, the sin set a barrier between man and God. THIS is what God refers to as their death.

Care to give me a quote that proves this? The serpent seemed to understand the word "death".

Death originally means to be apart or disconnected from God, so this makes PERFECT sense.

Again, show me a quote that says this to prove thats it not just your belief/opinion.

No problem! Here:
The termination or extinction of something: the death of imperialism.

You must remember that the original language is Hebrew. Death means the termination of something, but more specifically, in Hebrew, to be apart of disconnected from God. So A&E experienced the death of their pure state of spirit and closeness to God. Also, they were doomed to mortality as well. (Genesis 3:22)

Also, Adam and Eve lost their immortality, and so would later die in flesh as well. And no, God didn't want to keep them from eating the fruit to keep them dumb, but so they could remain with Him, because He desires to be with us and love us. So God speaks TRUTH of their death.

Then please explain to me why the only thing that changed was they realised they were naked after eating it.

Tons changed! All that I mentioned above changed. (connection with God, way of life etc) But, they didn't REALIZE they were naked, they simply became ASHAMED as a result of guilt over sin and they felt the need to hide from God. The closest they could do was cover themselves up. They were ALWAYS aware of their bodies and sexual organs. In fact, God tells them to be fruitful and increase in number BEFORE they sin. (Genesis 1:28) So God warning them not to eat the fruit in no way means He was fooling them about their bodies. If He didn't want them to have sex organs, He wouldn't have GIVEN them to them. And they didn't appear AFTER the first sin, because God tells them to have children BEFORE.

Next. The serpent comes along. You say He tells the truth. Only partially. Yes, he's correct when he tells them they will gain certain knowledge. But the knowledge is of what it's like to be apart from God, as satan was.

Who said that this serpent was apart from god? Everything is brand new here, I didn't know Satan had "fallen" yet?

Obvious, by his actions and intent, satan WAS apart from God. He certainly wasn't SIDING with God. And yes, satan had definitely fallen already which is why he was already busy decieving and manipulating. He conscientously rebelled beforehand.

It's knowledge in the sense that now, Adam and Eve realized they didn't HAVE to follow God. But, just because a new option for a course of action appears for you in life, doesn't mean that it's automatically better. Satan decieved Adam and Eve in order to disrupt their relationship before. And as a result, the PARADISE and carefree ways of life were ENDED for Adam and Eve, because of satan's influence and malicious lies.

I personally don't see that as paradise, and im sure there are many other people that don't. I also don't see how it was carefree for Adam and Eve, maybe it would have been if THEY had gardeners to do their work for them. And again you say the word "lies", tell me exactly what was a lie? The serpent never said that they would stay with god, he never said they wouldn't be thrown out and I'm pretty sure both Adam and Eve knew that they would be before they ate the fruit.

So I suppose the way the world is now is paradise then? Is that your preference?Now that we've established they WEREN'T slave gardeners, we know that life was paradise. There was nothing to worry about as long as they didn't eat the fruit. As soon as they listened to satan, life began to royally SUCK! And how exactly did satan lie? He says flat out to Eve that she won't die if she eats the fruit. (Genesis 3:4)

Next, let's look at the criticism about the name of Adam. You are at least partially correct of your translation. I know that Adam implies earth or of the earth. I have not heard of the blood, but that's fine, I give you the benefit of the doubt. You don't think the way God refers to humans is respectful. Well, a couple points on that. First of all, He doesn't refer to Adam as WHO he is, but WHAT he is. You're right there I guess. Well, do you not like it when parents refer to children as kids, or child, or son or daughter? If a dad has a few boys, and calls to one of them, "come here my son", he is not specifying the certain boy. He is using a term that is generalized for all his boys and not by the son's own name.

I find this hard to believe. If this is true then why doesnt god call him "my son" or "child" or whatever like dads do? My dad never said to me "hey come here one made of sperm".

Every name has an origin or meaning to it. You should look up your name sometime. Hardly any names have no original meaning or definition. God named him Adam, because the meaning of the name was significant and special to Adam and how he came to be. The name Rachel means lamb. So, I assume you disagree with that name as well? Go look up the meanings of names sometime. I guess you will be shocked at what many of them mean. But like I said before, I don't think this part is a big deal anyway.

Secondly, earlier in the bible, God says He made man in His own image. So, if God was disrespecting Adam, then He would be disrespecting Himself as well. Third, I just don't think this is a big deal.

Depends what you mean by "image", God wouldnt be disrespecting himself because surely god isnt made from flesh and blood? Obvsiously humans are not identicle to gods image, he is always refered to as "he" so i presume the women here are not created in gods image? If men are the same as god why would god need a penis? There are no other gods are their? He doesnt procreate does he? Maybe im being stupid here but it just doesnt make sense to me. Why would god ever need a physical body anyway? If we were created in gods image then that implies that god himself is a physical biped mamal! It doesn't make sense.

Why would God need a physical body? I think Jesus is your answer. There are three parts or forms of God. The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. He gave us intelligence and domain over the earth which resembles God the Father, a physical body resembling Jesus, and a spirt resembling the Holy Spirit, which is simply His spirit. In this way we are made in His image. And no, God does not procreate through a penis or anything. He doesn't need one to create obviously. It's impossible to know exactly what He looks like, except when He became manifest here on earth as Jesus.

So, let's recap: On one hand we have the all loving God. He created man to share His love with and to have him glorify Him and spread His glory. He granted Adam control over the garden and animals as an amazing privelege, not to be gardeners, because God doesn't care about having a garden other than it was necessary to provide a living place for people. His warning of death was truth and warned because He didn't want His intimate connection with Adam and Eve to be broken. He knew that if they did, they would be cast out and suffering would ensue afterwards. This is evident today as you look at the way of the world. He did not want this for His creation.

Then he messed up big time, this world is just wrong!
So why doesn't he try again?

He did NOT mess up. We chose to do what we did, and still do, by our own free decisions. If you are to receive love from anyone, they must do it because they WANT to, otherwise it's impossible. And guess what? He IS going to restore everything! That's where revelation comes into play. Jesus will return and it will be the last days of earth as it is, but it will be restored after revelation plays out!

AND THIS IS IMPORTANT! : I know this has nothing to do with the bible and christianity but I would like the opinion of a christian on this: why did god mess about making dinosours? Why was this missing from the bible?

Dinosaurs ARE mentioned in the bible. (Job 40:15-24)

So would you have preferred to remain in paradise as God had intended, or do you have preference to suffering of the world by way of satan? God, or satan?

It's people that # this world up, i've never seen Satan do anything and I've never seen god try to help.

Well, I'm glad to see we agree at least partially on something. People are definitely at fault. Satan doesn't run around as a red guy with a pitchfork for all to see. But the results of his influence are everywhere. Where do you think people GET there desires to wanna do something evil or even to just be selfish or lie etc. And God is always helping people out. Do you ever PRAY to God? Do you ignore His existence? How do you ever expect to witness what He does, if you don't believe in Him or acknowledge Him at all? I, personally have had my life saved because of God. Maybe that's for another thread. But if you refuse to see, or believe God, then you WON'T see Him or anything of His work. It's as simple as that. Besides, Jesus is the fundamental example of how God is caring and helping us. Just because Jesus didn't live in your lifetime shouldn't mean you can't trust in Him.

Last comment. Your take on Genesis is very interesting. It's impressive actually because of certain insights you show. But think of this: If satan were the one who cared for us, and God the one who decieved us, why would God in his deception, give us a chance to hear of the "good" thing satan did for us in the very book that describes and glorifies Him? A deceitful God wouldn't. That, perhaps, is the most convincing and simple truth out of all these arguments of why you have it backwards. I hope that helps!

Because its just a historical record thats why its there. It simply tells what happened.

DING DING DING! Exactly. So you believe also that that's what happened? But still, I maintain, that if God was deceptive like you think He is, He wouldn't CARE about history, because He'd rather keep us in the dark. He ESPECIALLY wouldn't include satan in His OWN book if He's so deceptive. He would simply lie or leave satan out of the picture!

BTW who wrote genesis?

The author was Moses, but God wrote through him.

You say you know Hebrew and have been comparing it with translations? I would be very interested to hear your opinion on the translation of Isaiah 14:12.

Also have you started any of those other threads you mentioned yet? I like the sound of them

Sorry if I sound harsh/offensive, I don't mean to.

Well, I'm learning Hebrew, but I'm not advanced at all yet. At least not to help you with Isaiah. My other threads I will start soon I think. It's just that I'm busy and doing this thread takes a lot of time, so I'm waiting for this one to die down and I will move on. And I didn't take any offense to what you said. Lots of your questions were good, except the gardener part lol. Thanks for your post. Hopefully, it helped you to learn more of the bible and God.

[Edited on 11-3-2004 by SimpleTruth]

[Edited on 11-3-2004 by SimpleTruth]

Originally posted by Faceless
A couple more questions about Genesis have just sprung to mind:

1) Is Genesis telling of the creation of Earth or the whole universe?

2) What is gods reason for creating the whole universe if all he created was us humans on Earth?

3) Whats the deal with all the evolution thats been discovered? God created everything as-is didn't he?

4) If god create us to just share his love whats his reasons for angels?

5) An eternity in hell for sinning doesn't sound very forgiving to me, can you explain this?

I may have more questions depending on the answers given here.

Here are a few more answers:

1) Genesis speaks of the creation of everything which would include the universe. But obviously, it focuses on the earth and mankind and is vague about outside our solar neighborhood.

2) Good question. I DOUBT that we are the only people God created in the whole universe. I believe there is life scattered all throughout the universe which would turn out to be an inconceivable number. I would say to you that He created humans in multiple places throughout the cosmos. I say this because if He created in His image then that would be the case. There is scripture to back this up, but I can't remember where. I'll get back to you on that.

3) As a former believer in evolution, I can tell you it's not true. Animals can no doubt change over time, but only according to their kind as it says in the bible. For instance, the finches Darwin observed were very diverse, BUT they were ALL finches. There is no proof of species changing into a completely DIFFERENT species. It's very ridiculous. Trust me, I researched hard on both sides during a time when I didn't know which was right. Evolution doesn't cut it. Remind me with a U2U to show you some good links and sites that really talk about this subject. I think you would definitely get into them. Btw, lots of the points they use to refute evolution has NOTHING to do with the bible.

4) This is a good question. Angels are not mentioned much in the bible. They probably have multiple purposes, but they serve as guardians of God's creation in a sense. They also constantly praise Him and worship Him. I'll actually look into it more and get back to you with more information.

5) I need a break! I'll come back and answer this real soon though, promise.