Originally posted by Faceless
Originally posted by SimpleTruth
Ok, your first criticism was that God created man just to be a gardener for His garden. Well, God created people for two reasons. The foremost
reason was to, yes, serve Him, but not as gardeners, but as to praise and worship Him and to spread His glory.
Genesis never says that. God created Adam then put him to work in the garden, end of. Everthing else you say is just your belief with nothing to back
it up. You are just "padding" it out with stuff that isn't there.
Genesis doesn't say that, but it IS said throughout the bible. Genesis ALSO doesn't say what you claim silly! So be consistent with your
arguments. It simply says that God gave Adam control of it for himself, along with the animals. You can't take a small part of something and judge
it without looking at the whole thing. So by the rest of the bible, we know that they WEREN'T gardeners. To even think so would be absurd. God has
no need of a garden OR gardeners.
Secondly, He made us because of His desire to share His love with a creation, and for us to be benefactors of that love. And about the
garden, it's funny to consider that God even needed a garden. He doesn't need one, and therefore doesn't need gardeners. If He needed one, well
He would be here on earth stuck in one today. No, the purpose of the garden, and of earth in general was to provide humans with a place to live and a
means to sustain them. He had them tend to it because He gave Adam domain over Eden. It was his. If you own something, you need to tend it, whether
you own your own business or a piece of property or car or what have you. To be able to tend the garden was a privilege because God gave it to Adam
to command as his own!! Not as a chore! Unless, you are someone who wants no ownership of anything, you should understand this very well. But you
say it gives no reason as to why He created us. These become apparent as you read the bible.
And again, this is nothing more than your opinion (or Christian belief whatever you want to call it). Because none of this is stated. Again you are
just twisting what is actually written.
And again, I'm not twisting anything, but it's mentioned in other parts. And again, YOUR opinion about the gardeners is just that, an opinion, but
has NO support in the ENTIRE bible.
Your next criticism is of God lying to Adam and Eve about their death. First, realize this. Before they ate the fruit, they had not
sinned as of yet. They had intimate contact and communion with God on a level that we cannot experience today. Their spirits were completely pure
and not marred at all. However, in the act of sinning, their spirits lost purity and were pulled away from God. Why? Because if God is to be God,
He cannot have sin or evil Himself, nor be amongst it, even commune with it on that same intimate level. He is the epitome of purity and love.
So its OK for him to create something that is capable of creating evil? Is he not connected to it by this?
First of all, I suppose it's ok for God to create ANYTHING He wants since He calls all the shots and there is no higher authority to say what's
right and wrong, or OK and not OK. But He created us, who are capable of evil so that we would have free will and not be FORCED to follow Him. And
He's NOT connected, because He did nothing to initiate sin, but only warned and discouraged it. It was human sovereignty and satan that's connected
So basically, the sin set a barrier between man and God. THIS is what God refers to as their death.
Care to give me a quote that proves this? The serpent seemed to understand the word "death".
Death originally means to be apart or disconnected from God, so this makes PERFECT sense.
Again, show me a quote that says this to prove thats it not just your belief/opinion.
No problem! Here:
The termination or extinction of something: the death of imperialism.
You must remember that the original language is Hebrew. Death means the termination of something, but more specifically, in Hebrew, to be apart of
disconnected from God. So A&E experienced the death of their pure state of spirit and closeness to God. Also, they were doomed to mortality as well.
Also, Adam and Eve lost their immortality, and so would later die in flesh as well. And no, God didn't want to keep them from eating
the fruit to keep them dumb, but so they could remain with Him, because He desires to be with us and love us. So God speaks TRUTH of their death.
Then please explain to me why the only thing that changed was they realised they were naked after eating it.
Tons changed! All that I mentioned above changed. (connection with God, way of life etc) But, they didn't REALIZE they were naked, they simply
became ASHAMED as a result of guilt over sin and they felt the need to hide from God. The closest they could do was cover themselves up. They were
ALWAYS aware of their bodies and sexual organs. In fact, God tells them to be fruitful and increase in number BEFORE they sin. (Genesis 1:28) So God
warning them not to eat the fruit in no way means He was fooling them about their bodies. If He didn't want them to have sex organs, He wouldn't
have GIVEN them to them. And they didn't appear AFTER the first sin, because God tells them to have children BEFORE.
Next. The serpent comes along. You say He tells the truth. Only partially. Yes, he's correct when he tells them they will gain
certain knowledge. But the knowledge is of what it's like to be apart from God, as satan was.
Who said that this serpent was apart from god? Everything is brand new here, I didn't know Satan had "fallen" yet?
Obvious, by his actions and intent, satan WAS apart from God. He certainly wasn't SIDING with God. And yes, satan had definitely fallen already
which is why he was already busy decieving and manipulating. He conscientously rebelled beforehand.
It's knowledge in the sense that now, Adam and Eve realized they didn't HAVE to follow God. But, just because a new option for a
course of action appears for you in life, doesn't mean that it's automatically better. Satan decieved Adam and Eve in order to disrupt their
relationship before. And as a result, the PARADISE and carefree ways of life were ENDED for Adam and Eve, because of satan's influence and malicious
I personally don't see that as paradise, and im sure there are many other people that don't. I also don't see how it was carefree for Adam and Eve,
maybe it would have been if THEY had gardeners to do their work for them. And again you say the word "lies", tell me exactly what was a lie? The
serpent never said that they would stay with god, he never said they wouldn't be thrown out and I'm pretty sure both Adam and Eve knew that they
would be before they ate the fruit.
So I suppose the way the world is now is paradise then? Is that your preference?Now that we've established they WEREN'T slave gardeners, we know
that life was paradise. There was nothing to worry about as long as they didn't eat the fruit. As soon as they listened to satan, life began to
royally SUCK! And how exactly did satan lie? He says flat out to Eve that she won't die if she eats the fruit. (Genesis 3:4)
Next, let's look at the criticism about the name of Adam. You are at least partially correct of your translation. I know that Adam
implies earth or of the earth. I have not heard of the blood, but that's fine, I give you the benefit of the doubt. You don't think the way God
refers to humans is respectful. Well, a couple points on that. First of all, He doesn't refer to Adam as WHO he is, but WHAT he is. You're right
there I guess. Well, do you not like it when parents refer to children as kids, or child, or son or daughter? If a dad has a few boys, and calls to
one of them, "come here my son", he is not specifying the certain boy. He is using a term that is generalized for all his boys and not by the
son's own name.
I find this hard to believe. If this is true then why doesnt god call him "my son" or "child" or whatever like dads do? My dad never said to me
"hey come here one made of sperm".
Every name has an origin or meaning to it. You should look up your name sometime. Hardly any names have no original meaning or definition. God
named him Adam, because the meaning of the name was significant and special to Adam and how he came to be. The name Rachel means lamb. So, I assume
you disagree with that name as well? Go look up the meanings of names sometime. I guess you will be shocked at what many of them mean. But like I
said before, I don't think this part is a big deal anyway.
Secondly, earlier in the bible, God says He made man in His own image. So, if God was disrespecting Adam, then He would be
disrespecting Himself as well. Third, I just don't think this is a big deal.
Depends what you mean by "image", God wouldnt be disrespecting himself because surely god isnt made from flesh and blood? Obvsiously humans are not
identicle to gods image, he is always refered to as "he" so i presume the women here are not created in gods image? If men are the same as god why
would god need a penis? There are no other gods are their? He doesnt procreate does he? Maybe im being stupid here but it just doesnt make sense to
me. Why would god ever need a physical body anyway? If we were created in gods image then that implies that god himself is a physical biped mamal! It
doesn't make sense.
Why would God need a physical body? I think Jesus is your answer. There are three parts or forms of God. The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.
He gave us intelligence and domain over the earth which resembles God the Father, a physical body resembling Jesus, and a spirt resembling the Holy
Spirit, which is simply His spirit. In this way we are made in His image. And no, God does not procreate through a penis or anything. He doesn't
need one to create obviously. It's impossible to know exactly what He looks like, except when He became manifest here on earth as Jesus.
So, let's recap: On one hand we have the all loving God. He created man to share His love with and to have him glorify Him and
spread His glory. He granted Adam control over the garden and animals as an amazing privelege, not to be gardeners, because God doesn't care about
having a garden other than it was necessary to provide a living place for people. His warning of death was truth and warned because He didn't want
His intimate connection with Adam and Eve to be broken. He knew that if they did, they would be cast out and suffering would ensue afterwards. This
is evident today as you look at the way of the world. He did not want this for His creation.
Then he messed up big time, this world is just wrong!
So why doesn't he try again?
He did NOT mess up. We chose to do what we did, and still do, by our own free decisions. If you are to receive love from anyone, they must do it
because they WANT to, otherwise it's impossible. And guess what? He IS going to restore everything! That's where revelation comes into play.
Jesus will return and it will be the last days of earth as it is, but it will be restored after revelation plays out!
AND THIS IS IMPORTANT! : I know this has nothing to do with the bible and christianity but I would like the opinion of a christian on this: why
did god mess about making dinosours? Why was this missing from the bible?
Dinosaurs ARE mentioned in the bible. (Job 40:15-24)
So would you have preferred to remain in paradise as God had intended, or do you have preference to suffering of the world by way of
satan? God, or satan?
It's people that # this world up, i've never seen Satan do anything and I've never seen god try to help.
Well, I'm glad to see we agree at least partially on something. People are definitely at fault. Satan doesn't run around as a red guy with a
pitchfork for all to see. But the results of his influence are everywhere. Where do you think people GET there desires to wanna do something evil or
even to just be selfish or lie etc. And God is always helping people out. Do you ever PRAY to God? Do you ignore His existence? How do you ever
expect to witness what He does, if you don't believe in Him or acknowledge Him at all? I, personally have had my life saved because of God. Maybe
that's for another thread. But if you refuse to see, or believe God, then you WON'T see Him or anything of His work. It's as simple as that.
Besides, Jesus is the fundamental example of how God is caring and helping us. Just because Jesus didn't live in your lifetime shouldn't mean you
can't trust in Him.
Last comment. Your take on Genesis is very interesting. It's impressive actually because of certain insights you show. But think of
this: If satan were the one who cared for us, and God the one who decieved us, why would God in his deception, give us a chance to hear of the
"good" thing satan did for us in the very book that describes and glorifies Him? A deceitful God wouldn't. That, perhaps, is the most convincing
and simple truth out of all these arguments of why you have it backwards. I hope that helps!
Because its just a historical record thats why its there. It simply tells what happened.
DING DING DING! Exactly. So you believe also that that's what happened? But still, I maintain, that if God was deceptive like you think He is, He
wouldn't CARE about history, because He'd rather keep us in the dark. He ESPECIALLY wouldn't include satan in His OWN book if He's so deceptive.
He would simply lie or leave satan out of the picture!
BTW who wrote genesis?
The author was Moses, but God wrote through him.
You say you know Hebrew and have been comparing it with translations? I would be very interested to hear your opinion on the translation of
Also have you started any of those other threads you mentioned yet? I like the sound of them
Sorry if I sound harsh/offensive, I don't mean to.
Well, I'm learning Hebrew, but I'm not advanced at all yet. At least not to help you with Isaiah. My other threads I will start soon I think.
It's just that I'm busy and doing this thread takes a lot of time, so I'm waiting for this one to die down and I will move on. And I didn't take
any offense to what you said. Lots of your questions were good, except the gardener part lol. Thanks for your post. Hopefully, it helped you to
learn more of the bible and God.
[Edited on 11-3-2004 by SimpleTruth]
[Edited on 11-3-2004 by SimpleTruth]