Can I grow a vegetable garden over my septic tank?

reply to post by St Udio
I'm assuming this is a reply to my post; forgive me if it is not.

As I reread my post, I realized it might have been worded a bit harsh, but in essence, everything is correct. I felt this statement necessary. The change to more sterilized ways of producing food is one of my pet peeves.

My techniques have changed to a large degree, only the principles remain the same. We use tractors and tillers, we do occasionally fertilize (Miracle-gro is a favorite of mine), and we do have medicines in the household, as well as cleaners and other toxic substances. I do not live like the Amish.

Your post brings up a good point though, about the tolerance to different toxins being higher. I submit to you that this is a good thing, and something that society in general should be trying to accomplish, not avoid. As we live in a more and more sterile society, we weaken our bodies by not allowing natural immunity to build. I saw a front-page article a couple of years ago in USA Today that dealt with this same subject, specifically the rise in childhood allergies due to (according to that article) the scarcity of natural irritants in the average household.

A common running joke with my son is that he has to be careful playing with his friends, "because they're more fragile than you are". Yes, it is intended to be humorous, but it also indicates a reality; most people are becoming weaker and more susceptible to health problems. We are not.

I do not advocate taking medication or intravenous injections to combat this; such have historically been very ineffective compared to more natural means of simply slowly exposing oneself to the irritants that will be encountered. I am really not sure what I advocate as a counter for society's immunological demise. I simply know that I have found my answer, and it lies in not buying fertilizer from the store, but using what is naturally available. It lies in not relying on modern technology as a necessity, but as a luxury. It lies in enjoying nature, real nature, complete with the ticks and fleas and spiders and scorpions mixed in with the fireflies and butterflies and grasshoppers and ladybugs. It lies in avoiding medication and using more natural remedies for any ailments that occur.

In short, I am in harmony with nature, and it works for me. If living outside of nature in some sterilized environment, afraid of the smallest viral irritant works for other, more power to them. I would rather die alone in my mountain and let my body rot to become food for the next mighty oak.

(Come to think of it. those are my last wishes. To be cremated and my ashes scattered by plane across this mountain. If anyone wants, they can stick up a tombstone at the edge somewhere. I don't think that will affect me one way or the other. )

TheRedneck

Originally posted by TheRedneck
Somewhere down the line, we have forgotten the basics of nature, instead opting to overanalyze chemical reactions we do not comprehend fully.


I'm sorry, folks, waste is called F E R T I L I Z E R out here. There is no E.Coli bacteria swimming around in the ground, sneaking into a root, climbing the stalk, and sitting there waiting inside that juicy tomato for you, all the while laughing evilly. mwa-ha-ha! The E.Coli and other bacteria die and are broken down by the soil into their individual pieces, which then get sucked up by the roots and turned into food. It's not like a jigsaw puzzle or a lego set; a human, a plant, or an animal is not just a building made of little chunks of the things they eat. Food is broken down into chemical components, no longer alive, before it can be used.

The dangers come from E.Coli and other bacteria/viruses getting into your digestive tract alive. Wash your hands before you pick the lettuce, then wash the lettuce. You'll be fine. If you're wiping your butt with one hand and and picking with the other, rotating every ten minutes, then you deserve to get sick, just so the evolutionists can be happy. That's where the dangerous stuff comes from, not from plants growing in 'contaminated' soil.


I know some of you are young, and you have these ideas on how to make things safer and better, but... take a look at what has been known and successfully used for the last couple of centuries, then figure out how to make it better. Don't listen to those idiots on the 6 O'clock news; they're just there for the paycheck. [/rant]

TheRedneck

With all due respect, E- coli is used in Microbiology to measure the uptake of Potassium and Iron into plants, as the E- coli will bind with both , and the actual uptake of each can be measured in a controlled environment.

On top of that, the E- coli itself it up-taken into the plants roots and leaves, including the fruit, where it cannot be wahed off. The contamination is actually from the soil and the uptake of nutrients, as well as from external sources, such as pooping in the field, or handling the fruit with contaminated hands.

Here is a Study done by the Ohio State University, and a brief quote:

extension.osu.edu...

Regardless of the source of contamination in the field, LeJeune explained, E. coli finds a way to survive and reproduce on the surface of vegetables -- and even worse, inside the plant tissue, where it cannot be washed off or killed by disinfectants. LeJeune and colleagues propose that the interaction between E. coli O157 and plant pathogens results in increased E. coli uptake, proliferation, exchange of antibiotic resistance genes, and protection from post-harvest disinfection.

In other words, if vegetables are under siege by plant diseases and become tainted with E. coli, the nasty foodborne bacteria will have a better chance of surviving and multiplying in our next fresh salad -- and it will be harder, if not impossible, to get rid of it.



Keep in mind that this is a single Bacterium, and in a septic system, we are dealing with hundreds of Bacteria, Viruses and Chemicals which multiply on a Logarithmic scale when combined together.

Best Regards,

Blitzkreigen


PS. You are correct, some of us are "younger" and we are just trying to make this world a better place. This is my contribution for today.

Please keep in mind that E- coli is mutating constantly as well, and it currently IS a problem, and can only get worse.


I'm with 'ya on the "Ashes across the Mountain Top", as thats Exactly what I did for my Father, on top of Guadalupe Peak in Texas, the beginning of the Rocky Mountian Chain. The Highest Mountain in Texas, I really hope your Son will have the respect for you that I do, and will honor your wishes.

I really do suggest planting Shrubs and Greenery on top of the Septic and Leach Field, instead of edibles.

With ALL DUE RESPECT.


[edit on 26-6-2008 by Blitzkreigen]

I condition my soil at the end of the season I turn over all the left over plant material and the straw I used for mulch. I add vegetable peels and blood meal in winter. In spring I add earthworm castings and peat. I do like the miracle grow shake and feed. I've used fish emulsion with good results but prefer the earthworm castings.

reply to post by Morningglory


No afraid not. You can be the healthiest people on the planet but there is still e.coli in a septic system. In fact, if the grass is growing really well there, there may be some leaking going on.
If you are going to use that soil, you risk actually absorbing the e.coli and other nasties right into the veggies.

reply to post by Morningglory


How do you think manure is produced...?

As others said: of course you can.
It's probably the best spot.

This thread is turning into a good example of the old adage that "a little knowledge is a dangerous thing". :shk:

You people do know that there is already about 100 million to 3 billion bacteria in each gram of soil regardless of where you find it or what you add to it right? That there is almost an endless variety of microscopic nasties living everywhere including the air you breath and no matter how much you try to "clean" right?

Soil life

It sounds like some of you want to hide in a can of antiseptic with an unlimited supply of anti-bacterial soap and purrel for fear of those evil nasties. Like that will give you eternal life or something. You've obviously never visited a farm, you know, where food actually comes from!!!

Sad what our education system (or lack of it) has done to this world. :shk:
.

edit: speelin'

[edit on 6/27/2008 by Gools]

reply to post by TheRedneck



nice reply post..
i am from the old world, born in a German Displaced Person Camp, raised on a dairy farm in Pennsylvania.
whatever doesn't kill you makes you stronger is my philosophy also.

and i'm not a fastideous clean-freak that is disagreeing with your premis...

but for those people who aren't aware of the boundaries and limitations, thats why rules like 'don't eat the grass above the septic tank' are made.
(i think i'm trying to paraphrase an Erma Bombeck quip) ? ~google it~ ?

reply to post by Blitzkreigen

You are correct, some of us are "younger" and we are just trying to make this world a better place. This is my contribution for today.

Please keep in mind that E- coli is mutating constantly as well, and it currently IS a problem, and can only get worse.

Nothing wrong with being young, I was once too (although it seems like it was in the stone age now ).

The whole point of my little outrage was that some people, no one in particular, most in general, have this conception that all bacteria are death sentences and quite a few would be horrified to eat a potato if they knew it came out of the dirt. I'm not exaggerating; I have known people who did that!

E.Coli is a dangerous bacteria, but it is not a death sentence and apparently all these attempts we have to eradicate the little buggers are not working. The tomato recall, the spinach recall from a few years back, I think there was a lettuce problem... all occurred in the face of attempts to sanitize and sterilize every aspect of food production, distribution, and supply.

Would it not be better to disable the little buggers? That's easily done, but it requires that our environments are not sterilized. The human body has an awesome immunity system to fight off invaders, and properly motivated, all E.Coli is is a bit of protein in the diet.

The reason E.Coli cannot be eradicated is because it lives on animal waste. Animal waste is recycled by nature into tomatos, potatos, spinach, cucumbers, radishes, okra, corn, beans, peas, and all of the things we eat. We are not above nature, we are part of nature, and the only time we have the problems we see around us is when we try to seceed from nature.

All soil is waste. When you walk through a park, you are walking through nature's landfill. Unlike ours, nature's landfill produces food and oxygen. Soil is s###, period. It comes from animals, insects, and even bacteria that eat the dead plants and animals that fall there. It is simply not as offensive or worthless as what we as humans produce without observing nature's way first.

All I am saying is that we should quit worrying about whether a bacterium might somehow get into our bellies and instead concern ourselves with our own hardiness and true health. Otherwise, we will someday be nothing more than medical patients living in hospital beds while we wait to die a nice clean death. Not a pretty thought for me; I'll go on living and experiencing the wonders of this planet as it has always been... dirty, nasty, full of death and rebirth and recycling and danger, and a glorious place to live.

Respect right back 'atcha

reply to post by St Udio

I do believe you got it. As stated above, neither post was an attack on you personally, but rather on those who just seem to have trouble with the concepts we both ascribe to. What does not kill us does indeed make us stronger, and it makes us able to better withstand the turmoils that life always seems to have in store for us. Not every challenge will be as simple as some little E.Coli bacteria.

TheRedneck

P.S.: I had some of those 'dangerous tomatos' on this last run. They were delicious!


[edit on 28-6-2008 by TheRedneck]

From what I’ve read, there seems to be a greater danger with root crops being contaminated from such circumstances. You might want to avoid potatoes, etc. in the area.

As to the Erma Bombeck thing, I believe you’re thinking of her book, ‘The Grass is Always Greener Over the Septic Tank’.

What a great response from everyone. If we were the only two eating the vegetables I would not be so concerned. I give quite a bit away and want to be safe with children and the elderly.

reply to post by Morningglory


There is a reason that you cannot put a septic system within 100 feet of a water well.

Ours is 'downhill' from the well, at about that limit.

There was on old house there at one time that burnt down.

All the ash and charcoal from the fire, after the house was bulldozed, made everything grow really good where the house was, much better than whats above the septic even now.

In a survival situation, everything you can do to keep yourself healthy will only help. Lack of proper Medical care, insufficient food supply, possibly contaminated water, and air and lets throw in A Bird flu or similar, or just being weak and stressed out for weeks on end.

The LAST thing I want is to be "sick to my stomach" and dehydrating from eating out of my 'Victory' garden, in an Emergency scenario.

If Space is a problem, I think I would still do 'only' elevated beds, seperated from the topsoil with wood frames and plastic mesh landscaping fabric.

Believe me, it would have been Very easy for us to pump "well water" onto a garden on top of the septic, downhill and where all the living structures are.

Instead we are 1000 feet away, down in a shallow "valley", next to a stock tank that we use for the garden irrigation.

It was a lot more labor as well as more expense, and running both city POWER and 12 volt battery banks to that remote location was not easy.

We tested the Soil and the Water for bacteria, pesticides ( about 20 individual tests ), hardness, alkilinity, pH, copper, iron, etc... to be sure we were as safe as possible. We dont allow livestock to roam the property anymore, as we used to for a couple of neighbors.

We did all this extra effort to avoid contaminating our crops.

Cryptosporidium and CycloSpora are relatively new bacterium, caused by Human effects on Nature, and unhealthy personal practices. It always seems like the HUMANS are the ones screwing everything up, not Nature.

E- Coli is constantly mutating and getting resistant to disinfectants, antibiotics and normal sanitation. Nature is building a Supe E- Coli Bacterium right now. I dont know why. Perhaps to ensure the Survival of the Bacteria, through experimental mutations.

Many new Bacterium are being "discovered" or are apprearing at an alarming rate. Some cant be killed by boiling, and laugh at 700 degree water temperatures, for example.

We still didnt discuss chemicals, viruses and pharmaceuticals, detergents and degreasers, bleach, color brighteners and UV protectants, fabric dyes, drain cleaners, or anything else someone might want to wash off in the sink or flush away. Toxicity "multiplies" when chemicals are combined, not "adds" together.... multiplies.

I'm personally not taking any chances. There is just too much out there to blow it off nonchallantly, and say it grows hair on your chest.

My Dad and Uncle used to play in the "Mosquitoe Fog" that the trucks would spray in the 50's... It was DDT.... All the Kids did it. It was the Cool thing to run after the truck, and play in the smoke.



We do intentionally ADD Beneficial Bacteria to the Septic to destroy the waste sludge and organisms, and occasionally add a naturaly enzyme , to digest the oils and other waste and odor products and particles.

Acidophillus and Bifidus are beneficial bacteria necessary for proper Digestion, along with 5 others. The other 50 + ( normally found in the digestive tract) are DETRIMENTAL.

I cant count E- coli, or anything else above as "beneficial" to eat out of the garden. Just my opinion I guess.

Some of the Old Timers around here still drink "right out" of the ponds.
I guess if you have done that "all your life", you develop an immunity, or you just live with it unknowingly, hosting it for a while and passing it on.

We filter to 0.1 microns and use charcoal. ( Bacteria are 4 microns across, but they have LEARNED to turn sideways and fit through a 1 micron filter pore. Are they getting smart? or just Lucky?)

I cant drink water in Mexico either. Tens of MILLIONS of Mexicans do everyday. I Got Giardia In Colorado 15 years ago above 10'000 feet, 35 miles "hiking in". Used iodine, and the proper contact time too. Simply from an animal pooping in the stream somewhere. Good thing I made it back to civilization before it hit with a vengence.

Ya'll go ahead. I dont want a replay of that, or even close.

I could probably handle getting sick right now for weeks, with support from others, but not when I NEED to count on my garden for a primary food source, and everyone is counting on me to make it all work.

I think we will just have to agree to disagree.

If I was starving, I'd eat your septic field grown vegetables without a third thought, and would humbly thank you for the nice meal.

I'm planning on not having to ask, or become a burden on others, using every possible means at my disposal NOW to ensure long term viability.

I'll just have to deal with what comes along after that, but I wont stop washing my hands then either.


Best Regards,

Blitzkreigen








[edit on 30-6-2008 by Blitzkreigen]

[edit on 30-6-2008 by Blitzkreigen]

reply to post by resistor


Ermas book, Yeah, you've got it... "The Grass is Always Greener...."
thanks,



reply to post by Blitzkreigen


your post shows that your aware and enlightened on the intrincices of soil/water/food contaminations...healthful operations. bravo.



i'd like to point out a related item...but a not so direct link to potential contaminations that don't show up till its too late.

It seems that a chemical giant sells a herbicide having Aminopyralid in it.... farmers use it on their grazing pastures that the animals use.

Well, the animals eat the grass
and their manure which is turned into commercial fertilizer and sold to the public has been found to be the cause of rotton potatoes, wilted salads, and deformed tomatoes over in the UK...
because the toxic herbicide that was tinctured by the rain & soil, then filtered through the vegetation, then processed through the bovines' stomachs & intestines, further sterilized through the commercial fertilizer process- which was marketed to the unsuspecting part-time/casual gardner !

Lesson: even the beneficial microbes and bacteria agents one puts into a septic maintenance process may be harmful, but as yet undiscovered.



i learned of this 'Aminopyralid' agent from this source www.opednews.com...
and by extension it may be appropriate for this thread,,,,




nature is a seperate system from the man-made agri-business system,
and i'd be leery of theinteraction between them both & particularly the intrusive-for-profit agri-business models that lull one to think everythings OK afterall.




enjoy living

Originally posted by St Udio
[


i'd like to point out a related item...but a not so direct link to potential contaminations that don't show up till its too late.

It seems that a chemical giant sells a herbicide having Aminopyralid in it.... farmers use it on their grazing pastures that the animals use.

Well, the animals eat the grass
and their manure which is turned into commercial fertilizer and sold to the public has been found to be the cause of rotton potatoes, wilted salads, and deformed tomatoes over in the UK...
because the toxic herbicide that was tinctured by the rain & soil, then filtered through the vegetation, then processed through the bovines' stomachs & intestines, further sterilized through the commercial fertilizer process- which was marketed to the unsuspecting part-time/casual gardner !

Lesson: even the beneficial microbes and bacteria agents one puts into a septic maintenance process may be harmful, but as yet undiscovered.



i learned of this 'Aminopyralid' agent from this source www.opednews.com...
and by extension it may be appropriate for this thread,,,,




nature is a seperate system from the man-made agri-business system,
and i'd be leery of theinteraction between them both & particularly the intrusive-for-profit agri-business models that lull one to think everythings OK afterall.




enjoy living

Your exactly right.

The funny thing is the MSDS sheet for the pesticide does not show the long term results that you have discovered with your op-ed link.

I dont think they though this far forward, and I know this is just one of a thousand examples.

here is the link to the MSDS: in PDF form.
www.epa.gov...

It just goes to show you that you should try to be a 'pure' as possible with gardens, crops and livestock, and lets include water in there too.

Thank you for the information. I printed and filed the data for further research, and possible testing proceedures ( besides asking local farmers and cattlemen if they use it or ever have used it ).

Luckily, there is only 1 farmer uphill from us, but we have the options to get cow manure for fertilizer ( and fuel ) from serveral other sources as well.

So far we have used NONE, only pond water and natural dirt, undisturbed for over 100 years. So far, excellent results that have surprized the Local "old timers". Some of our crops are doing a lot better than theirs.

We dont seem to have a bug issue either for some reason... nothing used.. just nature... we are ready with Cayenne Pepper and orange oil.

Thanks again and

Best regards,

Blitzkreigen


Of course they say its fine for Humans...... same link as above..

" PUBLIC INTEREST FINDING "

Aminopyralid is a Reduced Risk herbicide that provides reliable control of a broad
spectrum of difficult-to control noxious weeds and invasive plants on rangeland and
pastures, rights-of-way, and wildlife habitat areas. Aminopyralid is particularly effective0
for the control of tropical soda apple, musk thistle, Canada thistle, spotted knapweed,
diffuse knapweed, yellow starthistle and Russian knapweed. Aminopyralid has a
favorable human health toxicity profile when compared to the registered alternatives for
these use sites and will be applied at a lower rate. Its residual action should alleviate
the need for repeat applications, resulting in a reduction in the amount of herbicides
applied to the environment for the control of these weeds. Aminopyralid has been
determined to be practically non-toxic to non-target animals at the registered application
rates, compared to the alternatives, and is less likely to impact both terrestrial and
aquatic plants.
GOVERNMENT PERFORMANCE AND RESULTS ACT (GPRA)
Registration of aminopyralid will meet the objectives of GRPA title 3.1.1 by assuring
new pesticides that enter the market are safe for humans and the environment and title
4.1.2 by reducing environmental exposure to herbicides.
CONTACT PERSON AT EPA
Joanne Miller,
Project Manager, Team 23
Herbicide Branch"


[edit on 1-7-2008 by Blitzkreigen]

I would consider not growing certain foods that hold high amounts of the water and could potentially pass on harmful contaminants. Plants such as Lettuce or other leafy greens, but that would be the extent of my caution, and I am not even sure I would go that far.

While I don't want to enter directly into the septic tank gardening debate...

I would like to interject that a disregard for mycoculture is a tremendous issue for soil health and crop productivity.

I suggest visiting the Paul Stamets website: www.fungi.com...

Stamets is a USAmerican, but what he has to say is replicable and just as important all over the world.

Here is his talk at TED that opened so many eyes:


[edit on 1/7/08 by Pellevoisin]

Thank you for the link.

And the ideas.

I'm all for growing mushrooms, and a thick Portabello Steak would be great.

I would also like to grow Spirulina Algae, but the chemistry is way alkaline, and it would need to be in an individual tank or pond with nothing else growing in it. Seeding it would be an issue as well.

We do use the "seaweed" from the pond as a mulch.

Mushrooms would be a nice addition. Thank you!

Blitzkreigen

reply to post by Gools


A little knowledge IS a dangerous thing and very little knowledge is even worse!

Yes soil and many other 'natural' substances are filled with bacteria, and a host of other hostile things that don't seem to harm most of us most of the time however, that doesn't suggest that you should drink from your toilet . Cow poop does make decent fertilizer and most folks will use it on their lawn rather than summer squash - and for good reason. I am a big fan of allowing exposure to reasonable quantities of various micro-organisms as a way to maintain a healthy resistance, but one needs to let common sense prevail. Not everything that is 'natural' is good for you - even water. Given enough, you can drown. Quantity IS important. Growing vegetables for consumption over a leach field is probably getting a little bit too close to nature. I would recommend avoiding it...

Ok lets just say my profession deals directly with these things. Tell me this why do you wash your hands before you eat? Why do you wash your hands after you go to the toilet? With soap im hoping.

Once you answer that question im pretty sure the growing food over my septic tank question is answered.

reply to post by Blitzkreigen


That's kind of amazing to think about plants taking E coli up from the soil into its body. I am still not sold. As I learned it it was the mychorrhizae of the fungi that traded sugars and carbon with a lot of plants (maybe all woody plants except blueberry and other vaccinium species. I am rusty on the plant science but do non-woody plants have a mycorrhizal relationship with fungi in the field?

Most of the locals have advised me against the idea. We are still going ahead with the greenhouse just not over the leach field.

We will be making it hail-proof as I lost my entire garden to a 45 minute long hail storm this past summer. I've seen bad hail storms but never one that lasted so long. It looked like snow on the ground when it was finally over.

You all have made good points on both sides but we have decided hail protection is more important the leach field is too exposed.

Conserving water was the only reason I was considering the leach field. The greenhouse will help hold in moisture and I will be using a drip system for watering this should help conserve water. I'm just so sad about my beautiful garden. I even had a happy little frog family taking care of bugs.