Teaching Creationism Is Unfair And Here's Why

Originally posted by 5thElement

Originally posted by SpaceBits
2) GOD was before Creation.

Impossible to answer, see 1).

Originally posted by SpaceBits
3) GOD didn't create imperfect creatures. so the second part of this question is invalid.

Everything which exists dies. Perfect ? Far away from it...

Originally posted by SpaceBits
4) We don't. Where does it say GOD will punish all for ones disobedience?

So, what the hell Hell is for ?

Originally posted by SpaceBits
I do agree that both, Creation and Evolution should be tough and that the student should make up there own damn mind instead of trying to push one or the other on them.

How is it that same people who impose their own religion on their kids since day 1 suddenly want them to "make up their own damn mind" ?

Isn't their mind already "made up" or does it need to be "backed up" with science-wannabe when they grow-up just in the case it attempts to change it's own direction under "bad" influence of real science ?

In the book it says that GOD created the Heavens and the Earth, so I would have to say God was before creation. I don't see it as impossible to answer, unless the question is implying GOD as well, which would mean that GOD was created.

Depends on your interpretation of Death. Jesus said that anyone who hears his words shall not taste Death.

Hell is for those who are disobedient not those who are not. Maybe you didn't understand the question? Or perhaps I don't understand the question?

Well considering I was raised a Catholic, and in school I was tough both Creation and Evolution. I was able top make up my own mind. At first I believed in creation, then I believed in evolution and but now I believe in creation, simple because evolution make no sense to me what so ever. No I'm not a religious person, in fact I think religion is nothing but a tool to keep people separated. But I do believe in GOD and Jesus.

Out come the spewing of insults from you like a rabbid dog, (nooo not rabies!) I will, take the liberty of saying you blaspheme Christians with your intolerant, angry, foaming from the mouth rants.


You even would even alienate Christians with your attitude bursting with anger, The exact opposite we are taught in The Book, no matter what religion you are.

You haven't taken the liberty, you have assumed the authority, to judge me, to act as intolerant of MY beliefs by which you asked in deceit knowing not what I believe yet assumed you didn't agree even before I was able to understand your question.

Az please share with us and by all means quote me, before your first post responding to me,,

1.) show us the anger I have "bursting" out of my being towards YOU or any Christian.

2.) Share with us where in this thread I have said anything ABOUT YOU?

3.) Show us my statements which are "spewing insults" like a "rabid dog" towards you?

Can you?

No you can not and before your first post assaulting me for same, I had not spoke to you at all but to an atheist who has decided my belief is unfair to teach in Public Schools where his belief is taught.


When I joined this thread I had not posted a single thing to a Christian yet you seem to insist I am blaspheme Christians? Until you alleged this in your first post to me,, I had no idea what you are talking about if anyone has had there faith called into question it was YOU questioning mine with your presumptuous allegations and disingenuous questions about Genesis.

You didn't ask me for an answer, and as we see now, you already had one of your own. You "dared" me to answer it not that you might learn something,, but so YOU could teach ME a thing or two.

YOU posted to me ME I didn't post anything to you. It is YOU adding the creative embellishments like "rabid" and "anger" that is assuming you know my emotional state merely by seeing the furrowed brow of my fonts. It is YOU who keeps adding presuppositions which only serve to instigate, EXAMPLE: "Is it possible he didn't create us in one day, but continued to mold us until we were of his own image? FOLLOWED BY, Or will we be punished for not believing the exact same way you do?"



Is THAT what you think? is that what I said? is that what you really believe?



You then accuse me of alienating Christians? If I were to ask you , before you typed in the words, "Or will we be punished for not believing the exact same way you do?" do you think adding that to your sentence is going to increase conflict or decrease conflict, what would your answer be?

I think I know what your answer would be.

So who is alienating who

You keep suggesting I am angry about Christians not believing "MY" way but isn't it YOU asking, ME the question because I don't believe what YOU do about God using evolution? Before you answer that, keep in mind, the reason stated indicates by your post that you still don't know what I believe.

Do you?

Then how can you say this?

How can you say I would judge you for believing different than I when it is I asking you NOT ONCE but TWICE what it is you believed, was it not?

Then how can you say this?

This is where we as Christians make our mistakes, people always act as if they are at war with people who believe differently. For instance it is impossible for all of us to come together in fellowship when there's someone like you waiting to cast a stone at anyone who interprets things just a little different than you!

You can interpret anyway you like AZ but it isn't me using adjectives like "Foaming at the mouth" calling me intolerant blaming you as the reason Christians can't come together in fellowship.

As far as angry? I usually get defensive when I am being attacked or set up but only dogs get mad but I don't have much respect for theistic Darwinists who attempt to tie Biology and materialism to the word of God.

theistic evolution contradicts the plain words of the Bible.

In Genesis 1 we are told ten times that God created each kind to reproduce "after its kind," not to change into another kind. Man is set in a class by himself, created in the image of God and placed in dominion over all other creatures.

In Genesis 2 Moses reports that the first man, Adam, was formed of the dust of the earth, that he was alone, and that Eve was formed from tissue taken from his side. Eve was the first clone. You would have us believe they were the two leaders of a tribe Holy Apes or missionary monkymen, who knows.

Your Theistic evolution is by definition a guided process with divinely determined goals and objectives but these are two mutually exclusive theories. Anyone who chooses to believe in theistic evolution should logically reject the Darwinian evolution which is the unguided hand which the secular science community embraces and education teaches and that my posts were directed to!

You said things about Darwin when Darwin was always plagued by his angst of the Christian Religion and hid this fact from his wife. Then you asked about Genesis in a tone that would indicate I did something to hurt your feelings. I sure wasn't aware of it as I had not spoke to you.

Genesis 1:1 Creation of the universe
1:2 Earth is covered with water; story is told from the earth
1:3-5 Light becomes visible; day and night
1:6-8 Clouds and water cycle
1:9-10 Ocean and dry land
1:11-13 Plants
1:14-19 Sun and moon become visible in the sky
1:20-23 Fish and Birds
1:24-25 Animals
1:26 Man

You must discern when "time" was created for much of creation was done outside of time. Then the Hebrew for yom, or period of time in the context it is given.

You will notice after each day is mentioned a sun rise and set.

Except for the last day.

are we are still in the 7th day?

Revelation says he comes back, to create again.

The society and public education system we live in today has been created by the fallen one and this is said in (Ephesians 2:2) "the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the children of disobedience." The theory of evolution is a doctrine of demons they are NOT Christian.

You and I are not being unscientific in the least because we believe that in the beginning God created the kinds of plants and animals, each to reproduce after its own kind. As Christians our faith in the biblical record of creation stands firm, it is testable and observable. I am of a mission a calling to stop the dogmatic teaching of evolution and the persecution of Christians in the tax-funded public schools and universities.

If YOU, or any one else wants to call me close minded,, Ill say I am focused, and reject the addition to scripture that which clearly is not in there and certainly NOT meant for interpretation as there is NOTHING to interpret. You saying, that if the Bible doesn't say it or explain it that way, then it's ok to add it then interpret it that way,, or to be more specific, YOUR WAY.

So it is YOU who are guilty of what you accused me of and by the way, don't ever think you have the right to insult me while bearing false witness imparting your theory about Genesis. If you don't know something so clear that you have to ask questions about it. Than the question better be because you don't know the answer and not to set up another Christian in a strawman argument. How you have the room to suggest discourage fellowship in the same breath you operate your machiavellian manipulative ploys I'll never understand.

If a Christian has a problem with me in a thread and I see they have a genuine concern about something I may be wrong about,, I may be slow to pick up on it but when I do, I leave the thread until I can find out or talk to them in an email. There are other Christians here that will tell you the same thing because I have done so with them.

if you want to accuse me of being angry, than quit trying to undermine my calling with that quasi secular materialist Biblebabble Biology because it isn't in there and only serves to confuse not enlighten. You weren't looking for an answer, you were looking for an argument, then when you get one you accuse me of getting angry with all your abject discriptions casting me in the very part you played as agent provocateur. Then you have the nerve, the unmittigated audacity to accuse me of intolerance regardless of the monumental hipocrisy in that.

If you want to call me intolerant,, let me just say,

so far, all I have done

is tolerate you

- Con












[edit on 30-6-2008 by Conspiriology]

Originally posted by Conspiriology
No you can not and before your first post assaulting me for same, I had not spoke to you at all but to an atheist who has decided my belief is unfair to teach in Public Schools where his belief is taught.

I may be wrong but your respnse was to me at the start. You are calling me an athiest? That's just a plain lie as i stated i'm an agnostic, don't lump me in with atheists, that just shows ignorance.

Originally posted by ImaginaryReality1984

Originally posted by Conspiriology
No you can not and before your first post assaulting me for same, I had not spoke to you at all but to an atheist who has decided my belief is unfair to teach in Public Schools where his belief is taught.

I may be wrong but your respnse was to me at the start. You are calling me an athiest? That's just a plain lie as i stated i'm an agnostic, don't lump me in with atheists, that just shows ignorance.

No,, you are an atheist who just doesn't have the conviction to admit it. You are a coward who wants to sit on the fence waiting to see which position is right with a foot in each pond. You have no belief in one without the other belief cancelling out the other. I don't care what YOU or wikipedia defines agnostic as but I know what the Bible says.

That either one, the lord says he never knew you

The only difference between you and an atheist

is the spelling

- Con

reply to post by Conspiriology

Yes you are correct but let me be BLUNT.

I don't believe in BS merely to seek the approval of others, fearing I will be accused of having a closed mind.


You are damn right it's closed

For a good reason too

evolution is a LIE

That is the definition of the worst kind of ignorance -- willful ignorance. There is nothing he can possibly learn here, or anywhere else, with that attitude. Meaningful dialog is impossible. He already has the ultimate truth, and if anyone questions it, he just flames out with even more grossly excessive, tediously trivial posts. He even replies to his own posts just to build up more points.

He decides who is a Christian. He decides who is an Atheist. He decides What is a myth. He decides what is science. He even decides what God knows.

The stated mission of this website is to deny such outrageous ignorance.

He also knows that I am not an Atheist, yet he uses me to promote his paranoid conspiracy that the very brightest minds spend years studying the most difficult subjects and devote their entire lives, only trying to deceive the entire world.

I had a divine revelation about the secret code of logic the creationists use -- every failure counts as negative proof!

Each one of the hundreds of failed experiments by Thomas Edison and his assistants attempting to make a light bulb, only proved that light bulbs are a myth. Only one showed that it was possible.
Therefore, there is overwhelming proof that light bulbs are a myth!

In over 6,000 years, no one has ever found the skeletons, much less fossils, of a race of giants, The region they are alleged to have lived in has the greatest density of archaeological sites in the world. One would expect something so unusual and of such great reverence to at least have been preserved in a prominent place somewhere.

Only when someone can produce the bones of these alleged giants that have no earthly origin will there be any possible credibility for the Biblical creation myth.

Originally posted by Conspiriology
No,, you are an atheist who just doesn't have the conviction to admit it. You are a coward who wants to sit on the fence waiting to see which position is right with a foot in each pond. You have no belief in one without the other belief cancelling out the other. I don't care what YOU or wikipedia defines agnostic as but I know what the Bible says.

That either one, the lord says he never knew you

The only difference between you and an atheist

is the spelling

- Con

That is an appaling post. I don't say your religion is wrong, i say creationism is wrong but not your religion. How about i call you an Islamist, afterall if you can say my views are something else i can say yours are also. It seems you're not interested in facts afterall.

An atheist says there is no god, i say i accept it's a possibility but i have no idea. So logically there is a clear difference between an atheist and an agnostic. I suppose in your shoes according ot the bible, you could say the lord has the chance of converting us, but an atheist will never be converted.

After seeing such vitriol though i don't think i want to be a part of your "peaceful" religion if such people as you believe in it. You do see how you are far from the billboard attraction of christianity don't you?

reply to post by SpaceBits


So, what is a definition of disobedience ?

Considering that you are raised Catholic that means that you did NOT have a choice. Simple, is it not ?

So, what is the exact choice we are talking about here kids would have to make in school ?

They are raised to believe in God, but, then, they have choice between "God did it" and "God did not do it" teaching in school. Which one are they most likely to choose ? In which case homework is about 10 times fold easier ? What is likely parents are gonna tell the kid, if kid in doubt ? Hey, it's up to you ?

Why raise your kids before school to believe in God in the first place if this is all about CHOICE and freedom of the kids mind ?

Why is that religious people are so afraid to make the choice to NOT to interfere ???

Originally posted by ImaginaryReality1984

Originally posted by Conspiriology
No,, you are an atheist who just doesn't have the conviction to admit it. You are a coward who wants to sit on the fence waiting to see which position is right with a foot in each pond. You have no belief in one without the other belief cancelling out the other. I don't care what YOU or wikipedia defines agnostic as but I know what the Bible says.

That either one, the lord says he never knew you

The only difference between you and an atheist

is the spelling

- Con

That is an appaling post. I don't say your religion is wrong, i say creationism is wrong but not your religion.

Yes you do, if my religion happens to be the very one Atheists and the dover trial have defined creationism.

If my Religion uses the Bible as its standard of truth where creationists site the Book of genesis and you say that is wrong, than what does that say about my religion? You can't disparage one without disparaging the other.

How about i call you an Islamist, afterall if you can say my views are something else i can say yours are also. It seems you're not interested in facts afterall.

Already has been done many times and I am quite accustomed to having been lumped in with all religions many times. You can call me whatever your heart desires but to suggest I don't care about the facts when you believe Darwinian Evolution,, I find that very ironic and most entertaining.

An atheist says there is no god, i say i accept it's a possibility but i have no idea. So logically there is a clear difference between an atheist and an agnostic. I suppose in your shoes according ot the bible, you could say the lord has the chance of converting us, but an atheist will never be converted.

You wouold be putting limits on God saying an atheist will never be converted and I don't neccessarily mean any dis-respect, if you want me to call you agnostic that's fine by me but to say you don't know what you believe is to say no. You either believe in God or you don't, you either know what you are talking about or you don't.

When you believe, you know you do.

You can try to skew the answer with sayings about "possibilities" but that doesn't tell me what you believe that only attempts to avoid self examination until someday someone will persuade you convicingly enough for you to make a bold decision and stand for something rather than fall for ambiguous self concepts and ideas. It takes courage to stand and say I am an atheist or I am a Chistian and is why I have said it is cowardice.

Right now, you can't say with any conviction you believe in God and I know this becaise I was like you and when you ask for him, he hits you like a ton of bricks and you KNOW unequivocally he exists, hell he won;t let you get away from him.

People use all kinds of symantics these days to soften or dilute meanings and we see how it causes so much confusion. This is why many times in a court of law for instance if the asked you do you believe in God yes or no, you saying you are agnostic would be corrected and asked again yes , or no. If you couldn't say yes then it is no. The possibilties have nothing to do with it as there are always possibilities. Hell in a mulitple universe we can say elvis is alive somewhere but would I believe it?

No.

After seeing such vitriol though i don't think i want to be a part of your "peaceful" religion if such people as you believe in it. You do see how you are far from the billboard attraction of christianity don't you?

In the words of Richard Dawkins, I Graciously accept the rebuke lol

Do your enemys, opponents, adversarial colleagues see you on the same billboard your family and friends do?

Mine don't either.

- Con







[edit on 30-6-2008 by Conspiriology]

reply to post by Conspiriology

Yes you do, if my religion happens to be the very one Atheists and the dover trial have defined creationism.

They defined it themselves from the very beginning, long before the trial.
Lying For God

This bone head self-appointed "expert" on creationism, had never even heard of the Wedge document, until I told him about it just last week on another thread.

". . . What we need is for God himself to speak, to give us a secure foundation on which we can build. . . . So it is of the greatest importance that we ask the question: Has God done something to give us a start in the right direction, or has he left us alone and on our own?

When we have reached that point in our questioning, we will inevitably encounter the person of Jesus Christ, the one who has been declared the incarnate Word of God, and through whom all things came into existence. This time he will be asking the question that is recorded in the Gospels: Who do men say that I am? . . .

. . . When the naturalistic understanding of reality finally crashes and burns . . . the great question Jesus posed will come again to the forefront of consciousness. Who should we say that he is? Is he the one who was to come, or should we look for another?"

"Alongside a focus on the influential opinion-makers, we also seek to build up a popular base of support among our natural constituency, namely, Christians. We will do this primarily through apologetics seminars. We intend these to encourage and equip believers with new scientific evidences that support the faith, as well as "popularize" our ideas in the broader culture."

God did speak. He found you guilty in a court of law, after swearing to tell the truth on one of his sacred Bibles

Faith and belief are the opposites of knowledge and certainty. Once you have the knowledge of how the sun rises and sets every day, faith that it will rise and set is irrelevant.
When you have faith, then knowledge is irrelevant. No one has any knowledge about God or an an afterlife. They only exist through faith, so knowledge is irrelevant. Once they had knowledge, there would be no more need for faith.

Let's move on, people. All you can do with someone who believes they own the absolute truth, know the unknowable and admit they have a closed mind is to ignore them.

there is nothing wroung with teaching creationism


evolution, and creationism are not inherently compeating with each other.


X number of years ago, some power(god) could have created what is here on this earth, and over time, small changes could have occured.

Both Creationism, and evolution should be introduced in low level science classes...


However, starting in highschool, if you are actualy going to learn, creationism isnt the most rock solid theroy...

Originally posted by 5thElement
reply to post by SpaceBits

 

So, what is a definition of disobedience ?

Considering that you are raised Catholic that means that you did NOT have a choice. Simple, is it not ?

So, what is the exact choice we are talking about here kids would have to make in school ?

They are raised to believe in God, but, then, they have choice between "God did it" and "God did not do it" teaching in school. Which one are they most likely to choose ? In which case homework is about 10 times fold easier ? What is likely parents are gonna tell the kid, if kid in doubt ? Hey, it's up to you ?

Why raise your kids before school to believe in God in the first place if this is all about CHOICE and freedom of the kids mind ?

Why is that religious people are so afraid to make the choice to NOT to interfere ???

1) Disobedience could be anything that goes against human nature, If you hate someone for no reason, racist towards another, unnecessary murder, stealing because of greed, etc...

2) Why do you think I do not have a choice just because I was raised Catholic? I told my mom at 8 years old that I no longer believed the priest as he seemed to me, a lier. My mom said I could stay home if that was what I wanted, so I did. Is that not choice?
2a) Or I'm not understanding what you mean.

3) Well the choice would be whether they believe in Creation or Evolution based on whatever evidence they have for either. Maybe they will choose to believe both.... EX.. GOD created the rock that Humans evolved from?

4) I agree, I don't think anyone should teach there kids religion until they want to know about it, or they learn it in school. Yes, the parents should leave it up to the kids. Kids are smarter than we give them credit for. They will come to a conclusion sooner or later. I really don't see what the hurry would be for, for them to come to a conclusion. It's not like you have to be a creationist or evolutionist to get a job.

5) See #4

6) I really wish I knew the answer to that one... You got me there Bro.

reply to post by TKainZero


Creationism is not a valid scientific theory. The Dover trial established that and they will not appeal the decision. It is simply an assertion.

This is what happens when a creationist pretends to be a scientist.

Let's just compare how science and religion are taught.

This is how America's most popular preacher, Joel Osteen, opens every one of his sermons.
After he first establishes rapport and makes everyone feel comfy, he holds up a Bible and has them all repeat in unison along him:
"This is my Bible. I am what it says I am, I have what it says I have. I can do what it says I can do."
This is objectivity? Every sermon is an exercise in mass hypnosis and every preacher uses the same, proven style of lilting cadence to lull the audience into acceptance. The best dictators are masters of this same style of public speaking. Yes, religion does indeed rely on science. The science of mass hypnosis.

Has anyone ever sat through a biology lecture, or any other science lecture? Even in high school they are densely packed with highly detailed information, data, big hard words and equations with numbers. You drift off or fall asleep, you flunk the test. The lecturer doesn't care because he only cares about the ones who are interested enough to pay attention.

reply to post by Conspiriology

No,, you are an atheist who just doesn't have the conviction to admit it. You are a coward who wants to sit on the fence waiting to see which position is right with a foot in each pond. You have no belief in one without the other belief cancelling out the other. I don't care what YOU or wikipedia defines agnostic as but I know what the Bible says.

That either one, the lord says he never knew you

The only difference between you and an atheist

is the spelling

- Con

You have done nothing on this forum but accuse all people you have encountered of being an athiest! Your biblical interpretation is worthless if it didn't teach you to deal with people better than this.

I have a hard time understanding how you quote the bible then view other people in a discussion as "opponents". As I said before your lack of understanding and disregard for other people's opinion prevent anyone from having a rational discussion with you at all! How are you even still allowed on this website? What's more your demonstrated lack of understanding and patience display's your "logical" thinking process altogether. This isn't a war, I'm not your enemy, and neither is this other guy.. YOU ARE YOUR OWN ENEMY. You ruin the validity of your arguement with the flame throwing tactics you use.

I try to restrain myself from personal insults, and I believe that's why my computer was struck by lightning a couple of days ago. But, You were congratulating someone earlier for telling an Anonymus ATS poster he didn't have a right to his "opinion", I wish someone actually could take that right away from you!

I am also bothered by the fact you claim if we believe in evolution at all we are athiests. I'm telling you I AM A CHRISTIAN, He is my personal savior, I owe several lives to him with the amount of times he's saved me!
I also believe in evolution~! You judge me and prove what you believe in, The same sin which was used to judge Jesus himself! You are an abomination, in your current beliefs displayed, and claim to have the ability to tell us all we are athiests? That power doesn't belong to you my friend, you think you know everthing but you have everything to learn about the testament of Christ.

No one knows the ways of God without doubt, this includes you! But it's human nature, as proven in the Bible to, purse knowledge of, worldly, fleshly things. This is science, that which we observe.

Spiritual is a belief I share, but still a belief. I know it as fact, but only in the spiritual sense, I walk in the spirit everyday, but I can't show proof of my relationship with him.


The point is there is a difference between the flesh and the spirit, That which is purely scientific will never discover the spiritual, That which is purely spiritual will NEVER discover science, and sometimes, in your case, logic!

[edit on 2-7-2008 by azblack]

[edit on 2-7-2008 by azblack]

Originally posted by azblack

You have done nothing on this forum but accuse all people you have encountered of being an athiest!

I never accused you of being an atheist and maybe if you would judge me NOT how I deal with others in posts that have NOTHING to do with YOU, you could formulate your own opinion rather than put yourself in the shoes of others arguing vicarariously the way you think they would feel.

You have said I insulted you I asked you SHOW ME!

You could not

You have accused me of "accusing" everyone (as it's a crime) of being an atheist but did I accuse YOU! '

No I did not!

Have I accused everyone?

No I have NOT

Could it be I say that a lot to Atheists when I am in threads where Atheists debate Christians

mmmm could be yeah

Have I ever called someone an Atheist who wasn't?

yes but he got over it.

YOU CAN'T even when you were not called an atheist so GET OVER YOURSELF,, for GOD SAKE man I never posted to you YOU posted to ME and Again you are saying a lot of things that NEVER HAPPENED.

Your biblical interpretation is worthless if it didn't teach you to deal with people better than this.

You tell me my biblical interpretation isn't worth squat if I can't deal with people better than this. I ask you better than what?

YOU? as if you are the alternative?

Guffaw!!!

I have a hard time understanding how you quote the bible then view other people in a discussion as "opponents".

Opponent, another word often used in debates or the opposing view. It isn't a "Bad word" ok.

As I said before your lack of understanding and disregard for other people's opinion prevent anyone from having a rational discussion with you at all!

Doesn't seem to stop you moreover, I never said I wanted a discussion with you. I never posted a damn thing to you and have only been responding to your criticism for not being as "good a Christian" as YOU think YOU are.

If you don't like me,

DON'T TALK TO ME! ok?

How are you even still allowed on this website? This isn't a war, I'm not your enemy, and neither is this other guy.. YOU ARE YOUR OWN ENEMY.

Should I not be?

What's more your demonstrated lack of understanding and patience display's your "logical" thinking process altogether.

I take it yours is better than mine

You ruin the validity of your argument with the flame throwing tactics you use.

I never flamed you and Ill ask again

SHOW ME!
Then Ill show you who called who Rabid dog who has no patience no logic no friends and is there own worst enemy! Ill show YOU who has accused me of calling people things I have never called them.

Ill show you who has NO patience and is lucky lightening hit computer otherwise he would have given me what for laden with personal insults

I try to restrain myself from personal insults, and I believe that's why my computer was struck by lightning a couple of days ago

You were congratulating someone earlier for telling an Anonymus ATS poster he didn't have a right to his "opinion", I wish someone actually could take that right away from you!

what right? what the hell are you talking about? I don't have the same right the anonymous poster has? The only reason you can even SAY this is because UNLIKE THE COWARD who has to talk smack anonymously I gave my props to the one who saw it the same way I did. I won't make apologies for my detest of cowardice whether YOU think I have a right to it or NOT.

I am also bothered by the fact you claim if we believe in evolution at all we are atheists.

again,, SHOW ME!

I'm telling you I AM A CHRISTIAN, He is my personal savior, I owe several lives to him with the amount of times he's saved me!
I also believe in evolution~!

Ok then show me where Jesus said we are sp precious the apple of his eye he called the Jews. Tell me where he formed them from the primordial slime! Show me the Prophet Darwin Christian!

You judge me and prove what you believe in, The same sin which was used to judge Jesus himself!

If you want to live a Christian life than quit leading people away from God and start leading them TO him. If you think evolution does that you better pray about it. I am sure the lord will have some Christian cross your path that will help you see the truth. You think you are a seasoned Christian yet you believe the things of this world and its secular satanic Science of evil. Evolution is a LIE!

Believe IT

Don't waste your time with Atheists, they are lost and very rarely will you meet one that has not committed his life to derailing your efforts to lead others to Christ. I don't argue with Atheists to lead them to Christ, I argue with them because I get so any u2u's asking me questions where one of them has a babe in Christ confused wondering if God is real

You have no idea who you are dealing with here and YOU think I don't know what I am talking about and that's ok,, I never sought you damn approval. You don't seek mine so don't give me this crap about me Judging you, you when the only opinion you are so absolutely fond of is YOURS. I understand that I am partial to mine to but stay out of my way when I am talking to an atheist I am talking to THEM.

NOT YOU

That means what I say to them and how I say it is NOT how YOU should take it. If you want to be the Christian on these boards the lurkers and others read where they ask me in a u2u what part of our evolution does God give us a Soul Con? I have YOU to thank for making it that much harder to tell them that isn't what the Bible teaches.

But Az black says it does but now I'm confused.

Yeah I get stuff like that all the time and in spite of what YOU think, I get many that tell me they signed up here because they wanted to learn how to deal with Atheists and liked the way I did. Yeah even I have a fan club.

I bet you do too and I bet both of them are very obsequies for you

all you are doing is making it harder that Christians argue amongst each other. You don't know what I know about them so Back off until you do.

You are an abomination, in your current beliefs displayed, and claim to have the ability to tell us all we are atheists?

I never said you are an atheist and this is the third time I am saying this so ill just say it like it is now

QUIT LYING! Either show me or shut up

That power doesn't belong to you my friend, you think you know everything but you have everything to learn about the testament of Christ.

First of all you have been nothing but combative and adversarial and I could think of a hundred other ways of dealing with a fellow Christian better than this if you got a problem with one. u2u's come to mind and I hinted at this once but you would rather defame me with slanderous lies. so before you go calling me "friend" ,, THINK AGAIN! You have treated me nothing of the kind and I rarely quote scripture. The ONLY reason I quoted any to you is because YOU REQUESTED IT! REMEMBER!


By the way,, calling an agnostic an atheist is NOT calling them a reprobate
Read your Bible, learn to understand it get a concordance, study the Greek, Hebrew and Aramaic and until people start mistaking YOU for Jesus because of your actions is when YOU can tell me you are better than I am at being a Christian GOT IT!

I have always said Ill never be the Christian other Christians want me to be and Ill make damn sure I won't ever be the kind one YOU are.

No one knows the ways of God without doubt, this includes you!

I said I know the ways of god without doubt?

Listen guy, I am obviously talking to someone that has more issues than I am qualified to help you with,, Hell I don't think you are even aware of just how crazy this is getting and fully understand why I ask for quotes I have said any of this and you keep failing to show them but it isn't my problem they never happened. It is YOUR problem you think they have.

I pray you DO get help

somewhere.

- Con





[edit on 2-7-2008 by Conspiriology]

Originally posted by Conspiriology
Furthermore I know when someone is bearing false witness "Christian" and that I am not only judging you for, I am obligated to correct you on it and I doubt you are going to find many Christians willing to agree that Genesis has ANYTHING to say about Darwinian Macro Evolution.


Was I talking to you az! Hell NO but since you bring it up, lets test your Christianity right now. Do you think the man Jesus Christ existed, that he walked this planet as God in the flesh, that he suffered and died to save you and do you now acknowledge him as your personal lord and savior?


What! I "seem" ?? Why because I defend Christianity? Because I don't buy that crap bastardized BS you are spewing as false witness claiming Genesis teaches Darwinism?


Yeah,, I get it that you think that but if you think God is telling you that,, I am here to tell you a petition was made against you and you are being messed with.
then I suggest, that wasn't the master teacher talking to you Christian,,

that was someone else.

- Con


[edit on 30-6-2008 by Conspiriology]

I apologize to you for judging based on the arguements you have displayed here, but I don't have you on ignore, you represent those who will close their mind to all else but the scripture and I understand that.

I would also like to further that wth the fact I had no intentions of trapping you into an arguement or disproving you.

My first question relates to what I believe shows in the Bible humans being changed or altered by God in the Adam and Eve story. After Eve ate from the apple and convinced Adam to do the same God, was angered and altered the way we reproduce, made it harder aquire food for Adam, and hinted he changed other things. I thought you were aware of this arguement, and simply inquired your opinion of it. Sorry?

I wish not to mislead people but this is a valid interpretation of this event, and could be evidence of divinely influenced evolution.
It is no secret I am sort of new to this website and do not yet know everything about quoting so I cannot quote more than one post at a time or I would show you where you have accused everyone you have argued with so far of being athiest, I am working on it though. You should make it easier on me and just look back at your own posts and see where you commented anyone who believed in evolution was an athiest.

I also am unfamiliar with how to send u2us so if you want to speak in that manner I know how to check and respond, but not generate and send.
sounds like ignorance on my part, but I don't get the chance to use it often, As you said so elequently, I have no friends, and you can see why, thanks again for your kind words.

They are a bunch a thugs all the way to the higest ranking members of the Darwinian Theology

These type words make me think you have not really evaluated evolution, Darwin didn't include the Big Bang theory, Darwin only represented micro-evolution. Also reason for my thoughts to your judgmental nature.

TextThe Big Bang is the cosmological model of the universe that is supported by several lines of scientific evidence and observation. The essential idea is that the universe has expanded from a primordial hot and dense initial condition at some finite time in the past and continues to expand to this day. Georges Lemaître proposed what became known as the Big Bang theory of the origin of the Universe, although he called it his 'hypothesis of the primeval atom'. The framework for the model relies on Albert Einstein's General Relativity as formulated by Alexander Friedmann

I'm not trying to provoke you, just logical debate, I'm not your enemy and you aren't mine.

The fact I responded to post from you to another poster proves nothing, this isn't an A B conversation where I C my way out of it , we are all debating together, hence the term "Forum", and I'm sorry I don't view the people here with difference of opinion as opponents, this results in a hostile environment, and I condone nothing puposefully intended to be hostile.

In considering the Origin of Species, it is quite conceivable that a naturalist, reflecting on the mutual affinities of organic beings, on their embryological relations, their geographical distribution, geological succession, and other such facts, might come to the conclusion that each species had not been independently created, but had descended, like varieties, from other species. Nevertheless, such a conclusion, even if well founded, would be unsatisfactory, until it could be shown how the innumerable species inhabiting this world have been modified so as to acquire that perfection of structure and co-adaptation which most justly excites our admiration.
CHARLES DARWIN (prelude to the origin of species)

Here Darwin isn't saying no species were created, only some of the one's we see today are desendants of those creatures created. I believe science proves and presents biblical truths, so I remain unthreatened by it, it's no doubt you view these scientific things as a threat, Nothing is a threat to our Lord, and these facts were revealed by him for a reason! You attempt to deny the knowledge he has revealed to us?


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[edit on 2-7-2008 by azblack] That's alot of edits, I told you I was a newbie!

[edit on 2-7-2008 by azblack]

[edit on 2-7-2008 by azblack]

Originally posted by azblack


My first question relates to what I believe shows in the Bible humans being changed or altered by God in the Adam and Eve story. After Eve ate from the apple and convinced Adam to do the same God, was angered and altered the way we reproduce, made it harder aquire food for Adam, and hinted he changed other things. I thought you were aware of this arguement, and simply inquired your opinion of it. Sorry?

So you are saying that from that moment of change we became another species? We Macro evolved? we were created in his image and we macro evolved out of it? were we like an ape after that? or was that before?
I don't mean so sound flip but this is curious to me because I have seen you post to another Christian friend of mine and you jumped to conclusions with him also and are making another here again with me. The one about the big bang.

What is up with that all of a sudden? I never mentioned anything about the big bang and neither did my friend Bigwhammy but you say we did. I rarely talk cosmology or is the genesis account to you = big bang?

I wish not to mislead people but this is a valid interpretation of this event, and could be evidence of divinely influenced evolution.

I dunno guy the Bible is pretty explicit about it and here again you accuse me and BW of mis-representing Darwin. Do you have any idea how many books he and I have read on darwin in the last 6 months? I think I am certain I never said Darwin invented the big bang and I know whammy never said that either. I know for a fact his theory includes macro evolution and YOU say he never said anything like that?

It seems you have been tracking me or something if you have been that obsessed with my posts. Not that it matters it's just that I don't like feeding the trolls and usually won't so I hope that isn't what this is about. I got one named magistus on ignore and whammy has another tolling him too named gigantus or somethng another greek name thing, friends of rileys if you know them. Riley I don't have a problem with but some of my friends do.

I have no friends, and you can see why, thanks again for your kind words.

Awe man,, don't be like that,, I feel bad now if that was what you intended well it worked. I am not mad at you and I don't mean to be mean to you.

If someone wants to be friends Im ok with that. I wouldnt mind hearing more about this idea you have.

I might not agree but here on these boards ,, maybe I been at it too long,, ya know the debates arguing with atheists.

I don't have anyting against science and just because I don't agree with macro evolution, does not mean I am anti science or Asience lol

The rest of your post has to do with Big Bang cosmology and I pretty much have read all that stuff before, don't have a problem with you on it other than you saying I said anything about it. I don't get into discusiion on that much. I have a hard enough time keeping up with Darwinists.

Well,, hope we can get off on the right foot this time

Ill let bygones be bygones

take care

- Con


[edit on 3-7-2008 by Conspiriology]

reply to post by Conspiriology
I was afraid you would make that connection with the Whammy and assume i was tracking you or something, no, I have taken alot of interest in the evolution -vs- creation debate and, I, duke it out with posters from both sides. I'm a newbie, what do you expect? Thanks for forgiveness I can admire that! I admit I have felt persecuted by my own church regarding evolution, even for just asking questions! This leads to the quick responses, probably the same you have from arguing with evolutionists!

The response to whammy was indeed not one of my strong points as I misinterpreted what his meaning of a certain video was, just so happens, I kind of had our rantings on my mind and some of the same evidence, I thought, applied to him!?

As for Darwin, I want you to understand first I do not view his books and such as religion, nor a replacement. The term macro- evolution was never mentioned by Darwin, It was termed in 1929 as I replied to him and you I believe. It became popular during a scientific movement that was based on his observations, Neo-Darwinism, but he never brought his theories that far without arguing with himself and proving himself wrong. I don't even consider him a scientist I would term him naturalist. I posted this for Whammy too:

history of the concept of macroevolution

In the "modern synthesis" of neo-Darwinism, which developed in the period from 1930 to 1950 with the reconciliation of evolution by natural selection and modern genetics, macroevolution is thought to be the combined effects of microevolutionary processes. In theories proposing "orthogenetic evolution" (literally, straight line evolution), macroevolution is thought to be of a different caliber and process than microevolution. Nobody has been able to make a good case for orthogenesis since the 1950s, especially since the uncovering of molecular genetics between 1952 and the late 1960s.

Antievolutionists argue that there has been no proof of macroevolutionary processes. However, synthesists claim that the same processes that cause within-species changes of the frequencies of alleles can be extrapolated to between species changes, so this argument fails unless some mechanism for preventing microevolution causing macroevolution is discovered. Since every step of the process has been demonstrated in genetics and the rest of biology, the argument against macroevolution fails

As for the Genesis arguement you have been kind enough to endure:
I wouldn't go as far to say Adam and Eve were apes before the apple, But I would feel comfortable in stating a change did occur here in his creations animal, plant, and human; a quote if I can figure this thing out:

Gen3:14And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:

Gen3:15And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

17And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;

22And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

I mean to show only the possibility of a change from animalistic, or even wholly animal, to what we are today. It seems to point out, we spoke to animals possibly, and that we did not know good from evil, like the animals, nor did we eat food the same as we do now. Also the serpent seem to make some changes too. This type of instance is one of a few others I see pointing to divine evolution. Only used as a tool from god, not as we distort and use it for our own means today, which to me,is where the poblem with it starts,but doesn't end!

P.S.: Iwas not tracking you until we got in this discussion, and I checked some of your other posts, only to see if I was drawing the right conclusions about you, Hope that doesn't make me a troller, whatever that means, Truth be told, I'm starting to warm up to your bluntness. I'm kind of a confusing guy to start with if you didn't notice! I think were all weird that's what makes us individual!

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a sad thread to be sure. I am glad I missed it.

reply to post by TrailGator


Yet you felt the need to post that comment

My stance is that creation theorists have absolutely no proof, non, zilch, zip. The closest they can come to proof is the arguement about the universal constants, however if we accept the current model of physics and that there are possibly infinite universes, then the odds of one having the constants increases greatly.

Sorry i think teaching a religious doctrine is wrong, and that's what creation is, a religious doctrine centered on christianity. If you want to teach creatin then you better be equal about it and teach all of the creation myths, from the norse to the mysticism of asia. If you refuse to accept that all of these beliefs are wrong except the christianone, then you show you aren't interested in education, only pushing your religion on a population.

Science for the school, religion for the home.

[edit on 19-7-2008 by ImaginaryReality1984]

Originally posted by Anonymous ATS
Hate to tell you, but evolution is fact. The controversy in the scientific community is its SCALE

Hilarious.

Show me one inkling of proof that Evolution is real.
Do you have a missing link?

Any fossil records?

or just THEORIES?

See. Scientific facts cannot be theoretical, because a theory has to go through the scientific method in order to become fact.

As evolution is not a fact, and only a theory - your argument is moot.

Evolution is no different than creationism as it pertains to public school curriculum.
They are both theories. One is of faith, the other is of "educated guess", neither of which are provable.