Originally posted by Anonymous ATS
Hate to tell you, but evolution is fact. The controversy in the scientific community is its SCALE, not whether it happens or not.
One theory says it happens quickly, every now and then, while another says it happens slowly and constantly over time. And don't give me any of that "evolution is a theory" crap, as basically everything in science is theory. And creationism and ID are classed as mythology at best, and honestly, I'd rather have a theory taught to my children as fact than a myth.

unless your going to make an ats account, please don't voice your haughty personal opinions. Especially since they are logically unsound.

Originally posted by JPhish
unless your going to make an ats account, please don't voice your haughty personal opinions. Especially since they are logically unsound.

Firstly why does he have to make an account to voice an opinion? Surely that's what the ability to post anonymously is for. Although personally i dislike the anonymous posts they are part of ATS for a reason.

Secondly whilst i disliked his tone i see nothing wrong with what he said in the factual area, please tell me where he was logically unsound. Do so with logical arguements, evidence and not bible quotes and i'll give your answer serious thought i promise.

Originally posted by ImaginaryReality1984


Nope i sighed heavily because you missed what i was saying, creation does not have any evidence to support itself. All of the evidence is debunked by scientists and when all these flaws are pointed out the creationists just say "Well it's true because god exists".

Oh sure it does IR, and THAT is why evolutionists don't want the competition but more than that, ATHEISTS don't want anyone else believing in God, They hate it they call it child abuse they blame every ill that has ever occurred in history on something they themselves say has no power because it doesn't exist. Well then what is it the are afraid of? If God doesn't really exist, then Christians are no different then Atheists because whether we think God exists or not doesn't matter the fact would be that God is only as powerful as he is REAL and if he is NOT then we really have no deity do we? So then maybe it is religion they hate?

Well if it is religion, what religion is creationism? The Bible talks a pretty good game about this and contrary to what Atheists say, that book gets more impressive as time goes. We read it BECAUSE of its ancient texts not in spite of them. They happen to be correct about so many things Science is just now starting to admit. If you have a problem with things that happened a long time ago then why do you not have a problem with the subjective opinions of conjecture by Scientists who are also men writing books? Not only that but books about things they can ONLY SPECULATE that happened not thousands of years ago but MILLIONS of years ago by having no eye witnesses, no corroborating texts that were predicting same events to happen with the corroborating texts written hundreds of years later to prove they happened down to the last detail.

Because i say it, no. Because in schools facts are supposed to be taught, theories based on facts, not a very old book, written by men, without any evidentiary support.

Yet that is exactly what you are getting with Darwinian Atheism, a religion wrapped in the guise of a Science the same way creationism used to be taught. You wouldn't have a problem with Religions wanting evolution out of schools if they knew Atheism was not behind it, but they do know it and Atheism IS behind it and have admitted they are using evolution to advance Atheism. Christians see this for what it is and the threat of a two or three godless generations changing the moral fabric of America is happening before our eyes everyday.

The point of this thread was to say it's unfair teaching creationism when it's not based on any firm evidence. Even if god existed then god seems to have setup evolution. So even if we accept god as a fact right this second, then we'd still have to teach evolution rather than creation.

No, you are wrong and insisting that evolution is the way God did it is no consolation to creationists because evolution isn't the way it was done and the fossil record proves it. We don't show signs of a common ancestor we show signs of a common designer and that is OBVIOUS but it isn't to them. So you see how evidence works or is in the eye of the beholder.

If god exists then god set up evolution, it's the best way for it to be done, makes perfect sense god wouldn't want to be hanging around making everything all day. Like when humans set up virtual environments, we tend to make them so that they can regulate themselves without interference.

Exactly what God has done guy, he doesn't interfere, even if you want to test him he doesn't show up to you just because you tell him to or you won't believe in it. He laughs at that and calls those people fools.

What would you expect if you were God? You'd say "Hey I don't need you pal, YOU need me and if you want proof of my existence then you do what I say to get it, I sent my only begotten son to die for you to stay connected so I think I have that much coming to me." I imagine you'd say something like that. For a person who doesn't want God in Science, you sure seem to have an intimate knowledge for what you think he would do. How the hell do YOU know he would use evolution when what we DO know is just what the Bible taught and can be tested and is observable in every hospital with a pediatric Physician. As long as humans have been on this planet from the time they were created we have been giving birth of our own kind just like Genesis says and we always will. If evolution wants to trace back ancestors then they better do it all the way back to how LIFE just started from nothing but they won't go there because they don't have an answer and won't accept God did it as an answer but WHAT IF HE DID! Wouldn't Science want to know how he did it? Just because we think he did doesn't mean we are stupid because we can't explain the same thing they can't explain.

It only means we have a direction to go not a method to falsify and until we have the technology to test such a hypothesis we are at least honest in saying we can't PROVE it but we have as much faith in it as Science MUST require to believe what they do and they have no IDEA about that.

Ironically, one of the reasons the anti Christ gets by fooling man in the end times is because he has the perfect excuse to reject the Scientists of the day from being put to their scrutiny by saying hey you didn't want me in your class rooms and now you want a VIP pass to test and examine me like a lab rat? They get rebuffed with the worlds approval who are taken in by miracles he performs that Science can't explain because Science didn't want to have anything to do with such a thing, so they won't have access. When the REAL lord comes it will be too late for them and everyone else that has taken the mark but their will be no doubt on that one.

He says every knee will bend every head will bow.

No sorry, whilst you should have the right to teach your children whatever you decide to, why do you need to drag it into schools? Schools should be places where facts are learnt, not places to indoctrinate youngsters into religion. I don't see why you have such a big issue with keeping it out of school and teaching your children on your own time.

would want religion forced on youngsters in schools where they should be learning things we can verify. No one forces evolution on children, they are sat in a class, presented facts which can be backed up by evidence and then they choose to accept the facts or ignore them.

No you just don't want a science that has religious implications because your agnosticism isn't agnostic at all it is Atheist. At least to Religion it is and to Atheists it is cowardice keeping one foot in each so to speak as if this keeps your options open. If you want to keep an open mind about the possibility there is a God than why be so against the scientific avenues that may substantiate the fact and then you won't be agnostic anymore.

Creationists have no facts that are true, they have things they claim are true but unravel under scrutiny. Like saying that the eye is proof of creation because it's so complex, well i'm sorry but that isn't proof, that's just an opinion. However they present that as a fact and that is why creationism is unfair to teach to children, presenting them with lies isn't right.

saying it wasn't is an opinion. I guess we can remove some of the complexity of the eye and use it as a paper weight so that it will support evolution huh? Everything we do that to becomes a perfect paper weight so that means nothing was made to do just what it happens to do by accident. Tell that to any designer who uses their intellect to invent such items as say the airplane stolen intellectual property from the Bird but does God get any credit? NOPE the Bird can fly because it just was lucky!

We make computers that we marvel at the genius behind the inventor but they can not compare to the human brain where the ideas for all invention take place but does God get the credit? NOPE the Brain is is just an accident and but the creations it comes up with are not.

seems pretty academic if you ask me.

Ahh the classic creation arguement, it cannot be proven, yo ucannot prove god exists and so it should not be taught as a science.

How do you know? I mean something has to be behind all this. Don't you think science has an obligation to investigate such a thing or does everything having to do with God a religion? I don't think God is a respecter of Religion but that's just me. God is NOT religion but Religion makes many claims about God. Well Science makes claims about a God they say doesn't exist and any evidence supporting God is discarded as "Bad evidence" because Science says "we can not allow a divine foot in the door"

Creationism is hollow, lots of fancy words, false arguments and once you wade through it, it comes down to belief in a god. Therefore it's not a science and should not be taught in science classes.

See what I mean. You know NOTHING about it because but why would you when yu have a Bias so thick you can cut it with a chain saw.

to teach to children, presenting them with lies isn't right.

Yet 99% of the evolution they taught just ten years ago is all baloney now, all bunk,. like the lies they are teaching about it now will be. So who is lieing. You don't see creationists getting caught manufacturing evidence like piltdown an or have Scientists like haekel fabricating phony embryos to help Darwin's theory fro being falsified as they have done so many times again and again to protect it.

I am quick to throw out anything that doesn't have evidence to support it. You are quick to believe a book which was written and edited by men. Nice to know the religious leaders were able to edit the word of god huh

Again,, aren't all books written that way? Why is it Science is allowed to change its theory continuously saying Science is self correcting LOL then coming out with another model to explain away the lack of proof in the fossil record they invent some crap called punctuated equilibrium. C'mon guy the whole idea is baseless and all speculation with Scientists of Evolution calling it a fact when facts used to have a truthful definition as being that which needs no further explanation. Trouble is their so called facts are all the kind that wouldn't qualify as facts in a court of law.

I am not asking for evolution to be forced on children, i am asking that because evolution is fact based, that it be taught in schools. I am asking that creation isn't taught until they can provide proof of their claims. If all it takes is something that cannot be disproven, then i want it taught in schools about my hypothesis that theres a planet made of candyfloss. You cannot prove me wrong so i want it taught! How dare you force the ignorant idea on children that my candfloss world doesn't exist!

yet that is exactly the way Darwinian Atheism is taught in Schools with just as much faith in there Dogmatic theology known as Darwin's Theory of evolution and you are proving that point because you can't show me an IOTA of proof species evolve to new species.

350 million year old Bat looks like what today?

BATS

55 million year old cock roach fossil looks exactly the same as what today?

Roaches

60 million year old hammerhead shark looks like what today?

You guessed it, hammerhead shark.

250 million year old alligator fossil looks just like what today

Gators

Horseshoe crab fossil 125 million years ago looked like what?

Horseshoe crabs

Bipedal man looks like what

MAN!

Ya know what Bipedal man will look like 200 million years from now without blowing ourselves to kingdom come?

MAN!

China the best place to get any fossilized transitional dinosaurs to birds forms. Trouble is they got busted numerous times having sold them to Scientists who could not or did not make the distinction they were false.

25 years of e-coli experiments where they were starved with nothing but citrate , something they did not eat. One colony developed a taste for citrate and the genes of that acquired taste went on to their offspring and they make a big deal out of it but ya know what,,,

it is still e-coli and the guy conducting the experiment quit there knowing he couldn't get a true macro evolutionary new species out of it and settled for this surviving mutation celebrated as proof of evolution.

Java man a HOAX

Piltdown man a HOAX

Lucy a HOAX

the haekel embryos a HOAX

Darwin's finches, turned out to be nothing but micro evolution like getting a tan when laying in the sun.

Peppered Moths a HOAX

Colorado man a HOAX

Darwin's Theory of evolution a HOAX

and is still being taught as Science to this day and if anything is a tragedy in our public schools it is that people allow these crooks to get away with this garbage this long and either they get rid of it or we want our own in there and THAT,,

is the crux of the matter.


- Con




[edit on 29-6-2008 by Conspiriology]

Originally posted by JPhish

Originally posted by Anonymous ATS
Hate to tell you, but evolution is fact. The controversy in the scientific community is its SCALE, not whether it happens or not.
One theory says it happens quickly, every now and then, while another says it happens slowly and constantly over time. And don't give me any of that "evolution is a theory" crap, as basically everything in science is theory. And creationism and ID are classed as mythology at best, and honestly, I'd rather have a theory taught to my children as fact than a myth.

unless your going to make an ats account, please don't voice your haughty personal opinions. Especially since they are logically unsound.

Hi there, I don't think we have been introduced, I'm conspiriology. I have been following many of your posts and have become a big fan of them and you. You have literally had me cracking up in laughter on many of them. I have often had my posts compared to yours, not in so far as the content but the same thing I find so interesting about your posts.

Their is a bluntness to your posts that cuts right through all the BS that is refreshing. Sometimes this hurts the opponents feelings and you may or may not get told to "modify" your posting "style". I know I have but was fortunate enough have had others in a position to appreciate my not compromising what I was told is a unique position.

I never really understood that as I don't see me standing for anything unique but rather pretty conventional and to some downright old fashioned.

You always put forth an intelligent post supported by sound factual data delivered without fanfare without sugar coated diplomacy but the blunt truth that hurts.

I think what many have a problem reconciling is just that. For someone who is blunt, you do it without resorting to getting personal.

Yet that blunt force trauma of truth, still cuts,,

right to the bone.

- Con

Originally posted by Conspiriology

Oh sure it does IR, and THAT is why evolutionists don't want the competition but more than that, ATHEISTS don't want anyone else believing in God,

Evolution isn't some atheist conspiracy. Evolution doesn't have any say whether god exists or not. It is simply the theory with the most evidence supporting it. If that wasn't the case then people who support young earth creationism wouldn't have to resort to the same old addage "because god did it" everytime they faced evidence that directly countered their belief system. If there was solid evidence in favor of creationism or ID (imo they are the same but thats another arguement for another time) and directly countered evolution then most scientists would support the improved theory. As of right now there is none.

Well if it is religion, what religion is creationism? The Bible talks a pretty good game about this and contrary to what Atheists say, that book gets more impressive as time goes. We read it BECAUSE of its ancient texts not in spite of them. They happen to be correct about so many things Science is just now starting to admit.

As a historical text, yes the bible serves that purpose, as do all anchient writings. As a scientific work, nope it won't work. There are anchient writings that dealt with solving everyday problems and which incorporated very complicated mathmatics however, the bible is a social and political reflection of the times in which the gospels were written, not a scientific work.

Yet that is exactly what you are getting with Darwinian Atheism, a religion wrapped in the guise of a Science the same way creationism used to be taught. You wouldn't have a problem with Religions wanting evolution out of schools if they knew Atheism was not behind it, but they do know it and Atheism IS behind it and have admitted they are using evolution to advance Atheism. Christians see this for what it is and the threat of a two or three godless generations changing the moral fabric of America is happening before our eyes everyday.

The only ones spouting that atheism is behind evolution are the extreme christian right crackpots like Pat Robertson and Kent Horvind. The scientific community is full of christians that support Evolution. The truth of the conspiracy is that creationism is being pushed by those extreme fundamental right groups, not atheists pushing evolution.

Also how does evolution have anything to do with wether you believe in god or not and destroying the moral fabric of the country?

No, you are wrong and insisting that evolution is the way God did it is no consolation to creationists because evolution isn't the way it was done and the fossil record proves it. We don't show signs of a common ancestor we show signs of a common designer and that is OBVIOUS but it isn't to them. So you see how evidence works or is in the eye of the beholder.

If it was so obvious, the majority of those actually studying the evidence, Anthropologists, biologists, geologists, archeologists, paleontologists, etc. would agree with you but frankly, they don't.

Originally posted by Cyprus


Also, you claim that creationists never provided hoaxes or other lies pushing forward creationism. Unlike you i will provide evidence to prove that wrong.

Well let me introduce you to one right here. LOL i hate to bring him up but He cracks me up every time I read his stuff, its just so full or garbage.
(don't hit me for bringing him up )

Unlike me? You haven't proven anything and Pat Robertson isn't a scientist.

There are always gonna be people that are frauds and scam artists but notice some of those "hoaxes" you pointed out haven't been used in decades because they are known hoaxes. Darwin btw wasn't a hoax, and i would love to see some links or be directed to some where that can prove that wrong.

Most of them have been used as recently as this year

Also have you studied anthropolgy or paleontology to say that what your are seeing in the animals of today are the same as those that are present in millions of old fossils? I highly doubt it. There are differences between them, its not just a simple "thats a chimp fossil force to look like a small version of a human to support atheists beliefs".

Oh really ?? ya know what they call a Bat showing some differnces over the modern ones of today?

BATS THATS WHAT!

Ya know what they call an Alligator showing a 60 ft length back in the prehistoric days?

GATORS THAT'S WHAT!

Quit splitting hairs on such silly equivocations such as using micro evolution to substantiate macro evolution.

sure there a crack pots in every group and no one knows better than I do how much Atheists enjoy making fun of them but when it comes to the Science of evolution??

They are a bunch a thugs all the way to the higest ranking members of the Darwinian Theology

- Con

The problem with majority of scientists is that they belive in magic and something what is impossible. We know that constant genetic mutation happens and we can prove it so yes, it's a fact, but then when it comes to macro evolution they think new information to genes can appear magically from nothing. The fact is that the information must already exist in order to corrupt or move elsewhere. No macro evolution can ever be proven. Micro evolution is totally a different thing. I think only the facts should be taught and let people freely choose their beliefs, and not to lead them wrong way with lies.

Originally posted by azblack


Answer the question about Adam and Eve con.? I want to know why christians ignore the fact man was created, then in the Adam and Eve story, we were clearly changed to what we are now. This couldn't be interpreted as divine evolution? If not, why?

You are going to have to be more specific. I have a problem with you saying Christians ignore the fact man was created? No we don't.
Then you say we clearly changed to what we are now?
What are you saying ? we were something else before? If that is what you are saying without telling me what we were before, then THAT is why Christians ignore it. I can't say that I blame them.

The point is Evolution doesn't conflit with creation theories, the Big Bang does, So why judge and blaspheme other christians who see the difference between a worldly existance(evolution), and a spiritual existance(religion)? Are you aware Darwin was going to a school for ministry before his experiments in nature and other observable things. Most scientists, especially from that time period, believed they were learning God's ways and considered themselves Christian.

Evolution is incompatible with the bible and with Science and you obviously don't know what a Christian is if you think Darwin was one.

The sprinkling of God water (holy water) over a baby's head after birth by a Roman Catholic Priest a Christian does NOT make.

- Con

Originally posted by Gazrok

"Who made God?"
"What was there before Creation?"
"How can a perfect being make imperfect creatures? Wouldn't he no longer be "perfect"?
"Why do WE have to suffer for one idiot's disobedience to God?"
"If Noah had two of each animal on the Ark, what did he do to feed the carnivores, for all of those days?" Wouldn't the "food" animals then go extinct?

1) Well considering no one really know who/what GOD truly is, I would have to say that impossible to answer by anyone.

2) GOD was before Creation.

3) GOD didn't create imperfect creatures. so the second part of this question is invalid.

4) We don't. Where does it say GOD will punish all for ones disobedience?

5) Only 40 days worth of chickens and pigs was needed to feed the carnivores.

As for my answer to #3 if you need more detail see my thread "A Message In A Bottle To Oneself". It also explains why evolution is impossible.

I do agree that both, Creation and Evolution should be tough and that the student should make up there own damn mind instead of trying to push one or the other on them.

[edit on 29-6-2008 by SpaceBits]

Originally posted by SpaceBits
1) Well considering no one really know who/what GOD truly is, I would have to say that impossible to answer by anyone.

True.

Originally posted by SpaceBits
2) GOD was before Creation.

Impossible to answer, see 1).

Originally posted by SpaceBits
3) GOD didn't create imperfect creatures. so the second part of this question is invalid.

Everything which exists dies. Perfect ? Far away from it...

Originally posted by SpaceBits
4) We don't. Where does it say GOD will punish all for ones disobedience?

So, what the hell Hell is for ?

Originally posted by SpaceBits
I do agree that both, Creation and Evolution should be tough and that the student should make up there own damn mind instead of trying to push one or the other on them.

How is it that same people who impose their own religion on their kids since day 1 suddenly want them to "make up their own damn mind" ?

Isn't their mind already "made up" or does it need to be "backed up" with science-wannabe when they grow-up just in the case it attempts to change it's own direction under "bad" influence of real science ?

Originally posted by Conspiriology

You are going to have to be more specific. I have a problem with you saying Christians ignore the fact man was created? No we don't.
Then you say we clearly changed to what we are now?
What are you saying ? we were something else before? If that is what you are saying without telling me what we were before, then THAT is why Christians ignore it. I can't say that I blame them.

In begining god created every thing in 6 days rested on the 7th, then , the bible says, god created man. Man was then around long enough for Adam to name all the animals and plants, it wasn't until after that it says Eve was created because it was decided Adam didn't have a suitable mate. After a while Eve ate from the tree God changes both Adam and Eve this time and also says we would continue to be molded in his image, or his likeness.

What I meant was Adam or, man, was created then changed in the Bible? To me I see at least two instance where God used evolution to change man. Of course this is my interpretation of it , not someone else's opinion.

Evolution is incompatible with the bible and with Science and you obviously don't know what a Christian is if you think Darwin was one.

The sprinkling of God water (holy water) over a baby's head after birth by a Roman Catholic Priest a Christian does NOT make.

- Con

Who is playing God, scientists, or you who would twist an honest inquiry into your beliefs and pass judgement of my Christianity? Should we pray to you since we could just bypass God and you can tell us all what's compatible with God's word? I have my own personal relationship with him as I'm sure you do, and he tells me something different!

My interpretation of the Bilble also led me to believe the biggest message in it was the judgement of Jesus and crucifiction, You seem as if you would be the judge; as he was judged? Are you one of those Christians who say one thing and do another?

[edit on 29-6-2008 by azblack]

Originally posted by azblack

In begining god created every thing in 6 days rested on the 7th, then , the bible says, god created man. Man was then around long enough for Adam to name all the animals and plants, it wasn't until after that it says Eve was created because it was decided Adam didn't have a suitable mate. After a while Eve ate from the tree God changes both Adam and Eve this time and also says we would continue to be molded in his image, or his likeness.

Yeah I know what Genesis says and the reason I asked you to be specific is because you weren't then and you are still not being specific. Hell all you did was paraphrase the entire Genesis account to the seventh day in one paragraph! You SAY you are a Christian what is the stable datum for Christians? The Bible is it NOT? I don't care what religion you are and it doesn't matter what religion I am. So lets use our standard of truth ok AZ? What DOES the BIBLE say about it.

That means I need Book passage and verse because I have no idea what your interpretation is but I can tell you this much, Darwinian Macro Evolution is NOT the method of "change" the Bible is talking about, as a matter of fact, forget it. YOU DON'T KNOW where it says that and THAT is why you can't be specific. Furthermore I know when someone is bearing false witness "Christian" and that I am not only judging you for, I am obligated to correct you on it and I doubt you are going to find many Christians willing to agree that Genesis has ANYTHING to say about Darwinian Macro Evolution.

Let me ask you something "Christian" Do YOU think I have all these arguments with Atheists because Darwinian evolution is in THE BIBLE!

Is it JUST a COINCIDENCE that the argument is always between Religion and Science and that Science means what ? KNOWLEDGE and what was the serpent tempting eve to partake of what tree?

The tree of Knowledge!

Do YOU really believe what they say is SCIENCE! I am talking to an Atheist guy, they are not unbelievers they are DIS BELIEVERS. That means they believe it, they just deny it!

You tell me I am blaspheme other Christians when they are the same people that gave us the blaspheme challenge on youtube!

Who is playing God, scientists, or you who would twist an honest inquiry into your beliefs and pass judgement of my Christianity? Should we pray to you since we could just bypass God and you can tell us all what's compatible with God's word?

Was I talking to you az! Hell NO but since you bring it up, lets test your Christianity right now. Do you think the man Jesus Christ existed, that he walked this planet as God in the flesh, that he suffered and died to save you and do you now acknowledge him as your personal lord and savior?

My interpretation of the Bilble also led me to believe the biggest message in it was the judgement of Jesus and crucifiction, You seem as if you would be the judge; as he was judged? Are you one of those Christians who say one thing and do another?

What! I "seem" ?? Why because I defend Christianity? Because I don't buy that crap bastardized BS you are spewing as false witness claiming Genesis teaches Darwinism?

I have my own personal relationship with him as I'm sure you do, and he tells me something different!

Yeah,, I get it that you think that but if you think God is telling you that,, I am here to tell you a petition was made against you and you are being messed with. Unless you can come up with another species of animal that could have named all the other kinds of animal besides homo sapiene bipedal human. If you can't explain what YOU say God led you to believe in the book of genesis as Adam evolving into some other "thing", better than what you have so far,,

then I suggest, that wasn't the master teacher talking to you Christian,,

that was someone else.

- Con


[edit on 30-6-2008 by Conspiriology]