Originally posted by azblack
It's funny when you start to see people argueing over such small differences, when it's painfully obvious both can be right. If you can't realize that, all involved in this conversation are truely close minded!!

*sighs heavily*

Whislt i accept that there is a possibility of there being a god (i'm agnostic), that doesn't mean it should be taught in a school, that's what churches are for. If there were a god i reckon he/she/it would make evolution happen as it would be the most efficient way of doing things, imagine god creating every little thing, don't think god would enjoy it.

So if we accept evolution as fact even if god started it, then evolution should be taught in schools and god left out of the equation, god should be taught in church, where it belongs. Afterall the church is gods house, so go and ring the doorbell there.

Originally posted by ImaginaryReality1984

*sighs heavily*

Whislt i accept that there is a possibility of there being a god (i'm agnostic), that doesn't mean it should be taught in a school, that's what churches are for. If there were a god i reckon he/she/it would make evolution happen as it would be the most efficient way of doing things, imagine god creating every little thing, don't think god would enjoy it.

So if we accept evolution as fact even if god started it, then evolution should be taught in schools and god left out of the equation, god should be taught in church, where it belongs. Afterall the church is gods house, so go and ring the doorbell there.

I take it to reason you sigh heavily before making a reply is because you don't have an answer that isn't going to be torn apart..


Just because you believe god should only be taught in churches everyone else has to abide by that?

The point of this whole conversation was whether or not teaching creationism is unfair,, The answer is no, if taught, and regulated properly..

The issue is people want god in schools. It's possible, if people ignore their differences, to have all religions taught, not the whole spill, but a basic history of, or as philosophy, spiritual type class, being fair to everyone.

If the majority of the people in my area believe we should -fairly- implement some religious influence into our childrens lives. We should have that right.

I don't believe you should remove logically proven scientific fact, or evolution, from schools simply because some religious people don't want their kids exposed to it, and they don't, but it's forced upon them.

What if they forced what they believed religiously on your kids??
I find it hard to believe someone would believe it's impossible to just, include religion somewhere in schools.

I personally believe divine influence started evolution, or A.I., or the big bang, my point; evidence right now doesn't indicate for sure either way, so why wouldn't they be included as possible creation theories. To exclude a theory because you or anyone else -believes- differently is what is unfair.

These theories or religions you are bent on excluding have been around longer than our country has, have never been disproven. In true science, or logical thought, no theory is excluded unless completely disproved, until then they are all possibilities.

You seem quick to throw out century old theories as to our creation, with no evidence they didn't occur.. Just because YOU don't believe them for no reason doesn't mean YOU can force ignorance on MY children!

[edit on 26-6-2008 by azblack]

Originally posted by azblack
I take it to reason you sigh heavily before making a reply is because you don't have an answer that isn't going to be torn apart..

Nope i sighed heavily because you missed what i was saying, creation does not have any evidence to support itself. All of the evidence is debunked by scientists and when all these flaws are pointed out the creatinists just say "Well it's true because god exists".

Originally posted by azblack
Just because you believe god should only be taught in churches everyone else has to abide by that?

Because i say it, no. Because in schools facts are supposed to be taught, theories based on facts, not a very old book, written by men, without any evidentiary support.

Originally posted by azblack
The point of this whole conversation was whether or not teaching creationism is unfair,, The answer is no, if taught, and regulated properly..

The point of this thread was to say it's unfair teaching creationism when it's not based on any firm evidence. Even if god existed then god seems to have setup evolution. So even if we accept god as a fact right this second, then we'd still have to teach eovlution rather than creation.

If god exists then god set up evolution, it's the best way for it to be done, makes perfect sense god wouldn't want to be hanging around making everything all day. Like when humans set up virtual enviroments, we tend to make them so that they can regulate themselves without interference.

Originally posted by azblack
The issue is people want god in schools. It's possible, if people ignore their differences, to have all religions taught, not the whole spill, but a basic history of, or as philosophy, spiritual type class, being fair to everyone.

I don't know what it's like where you are but the UK still has religious education lessons in a lot of schools. They teach all the religions, what they believe, a basic history etc. I have no issue with teaching all religions and that's where creation fails again. In fact if you want all religions taught then you cannot just teach creationism, you would have to teach all of the creation stories.

If you teach creation you favour one religion, whereas if you teach evolution, which is backed by facts, then you treat all religions the same.

Originally posted by azblack
If the majority of the people in my area believe we should -fairly- implement some religious influence into our childrens lives. We should have that right.

No sorry, whilst you should have the right to teach your children whatever you decide to, why do you need to drag it into schools? Schools should be places where facts are learnt, not places to indoctrinate youngsters into religion. I don't see why you have such a big issue with keeping it out of school and teaching your children on your own time.

Originally posted by azblack
What if they forced what they believed religiously on your kids??
I find it hard to believe someone would believe it's impossible to just, include religion somewhere in schools.

Again we teach R.E in UK schools where all religions are taught about. However they are not presented in a way that people should believe them, i remember the lessons well. We were just told about each religion, we were not presented false evidence as to the existence of god.

I find it hard to believe someone would want religion forced on youngsters in schools where they should be learning things we can verify. No one forces evolution on children, they are sat in a class, presented facts which can be backed up by evidence and then they choose to accept the facts or ignore them.

Creationists have no facts that are true, they have things they claim are true but unravel under scrutiny. Like saying that the eye is proof of creation because it's so complex, well i'm sorry but that isn't proof, that's just an opinion. However they present that as a fact and that is why creationism is unfair to teach to children, presenting them with lies isn't right.

Originally posted by azblack
I personally believe divine influence started evolution, or A.I., or the big bang, my point; evidence right now doesn't indicate for sure either way, so why wouldn't they be included as possible creation theories. To exclude a theory because you or anyone else -believes- differently is what is unfair.

Ahh the classic creation arguement, it cannot be proven, yo ucannot prove god exists and so it should not be taught as a science. Creationism is hollow, lots of fancy words, false arguments and once you wade through it, it comes down to belief in a god. Therefore it's not a science and should not be taught in science classes.

Originally posted by azblack
These theories or religions you are bent on excluding have been around longer than our country has, have never been disproven. In true science, or logical thought, no theory is excluded unless completely disproved, until then they are all possibilities.

Proving god doesn't exist is impossible, it is on the shoulders of creationists to provide evidence to support their claims, not simply point out we cannot disprove god. Show me evidence that everything was created and i'll believe it, unlike you i will believe anything put in front of me if there are facts to back it up.

Just becuase it's been around a long time doesn't make it right either. In true science, you provide proof of your hypothesis, just because it can't be disproven doesn't make it correct. Hey listen i want something new taught in science classes, basically there is a planet made of candyfloss, it's a very interesting hypothesis and you can't prove me wrong so we must teach it right?

That's the same argument creationists have.

Originally posted by azblack
You seem quick to throw out century old theories as to our creation, with no evidence they didn't occur.. Just because YOU don't believe them for no reason doesn't mean YOU can force ignorance on MY children!

I am quick to throw out anything that doesn't have evidence to support it. You are quick to believe a book which was written and edited by men. Nice to know the religious leaders were able to edit the word of god huh

Ignorance? Well you could teach your children that evolution is wrong at home or in church, what is wrong with that? Ignorance is denying facts, science has plenty of them to support evolution, s to me, teaching children evolution is wrong is the height of ignorance.

If we go by your "logic" that because something has been around a long time we shouldn't just throw it out, then the norse, roman and greek gods should really be taught before christian based creationism.

I am not asking for evolution to be forced on children, i am asking that because evolution is fact based, that it be taught in schools. I am asking that creation isn't taught until they can provide proof of their claims. If all it takes is something that cannot be disproven, then i want it taught in schools about my hypothesis that theres a planet made of candyfloss. You cannot prove me wrong so i want it taught! How dare you force the ignorant idea on children that my candfloss world doesn't exist!

how can it be unfair. teaching only evolution is unfair. if you are teaching one you might as well teach both because,evolution has become a religion for athiest

Originally posted by ahornsby
how can it be unfair. teaching only evolution is unfair. if you are teaching one you might as well teach both because,evolution has become a religion for athiest

How has evolution become a religion for Atheists? I am a Christian and I believe in evolution. Just because I believe in Jesus does not mean I believe in creationism. I believe God had a hand with evolution, and since we can't comprehend what is infinite I think no one is right or wrong.

However I do think being taught creationism in schools is wrong. I used to go through this all the time. Students should not have to go through the confusion that me and my peers had to go through. On one hand you had science that is telling us creationism was wrong, on the other we were taught creationism which told us that evolution was wrong.

They should be separated.

Originally posted by azblack
If the majority of the people in my area believe we should -fairly- implement some religious influence into our childrens lives. We should have that right.

That is only logical to those who belong to that majority.

As long as there is the other side (minority) it's not fair or legal. Surely, if you are in minority you would not find it as fair as any other member of it, or maybe you would ?

Originally posted by Ferdane

And what in macro evolution and everything appearing from nothing does not require faith?

Well if you're talking of the big bang then it's a 50:50 choice, this thread is about evolution though. Evolution, whist still not quite grasping the starts of life, is not incorrect in describing how life develops and so your point is mute. Evolution doesn't require faith, it requires an acceptance of evidence. The religious are denying facts because their minds are blinded to anything which could question their faith.

I have met a few christians who believe in evolution, they believe as strongly in god as anyone you'll know and yet they accept evolution. They don't see it as a threat to their faith or their god, i wish more christians could approach it in that way.

Evolution and even the big bang take stabs at how life started, the stabs are blind but they are starting to hit their targets. There is i'm afraid absolutely no proof for the belief in god, therefore i think evolution and the big bang have several points scored in comparison.

[edit on 27-6-2008 by ImaginaryReality1984]

Originally posted by azblack
The big bang theory being 50:50 is a theory, not fact. This is the theory you would accept over the same logical explination for the same instance.

This is where you don't udnerstand science at all, scientific theory is a higher level than mere fact. Evolutionary theory will never be called evolutionary fact, same as atomic theory will never be called atomic fact. You are shwoing you know nothing of the scientific method if you think theories aren't facts. Theories contain many facts, maybe thousands in some cases, the theory is merely what links them together.

Originally posted by azblack
Who is really being un-fair, You who claims one theory is better than the other for no particular evidenciary reason's except you don't believe in it!1

What? I have tons of evidence for evolution, thousands of fossils, showing the developments of species over millions of years. That is fact, or dd god put those fossils there to tease us?

Originally posted by azblack
Science must accept all theories as possibility until proven otherwise. The exculsion of any other theory without factual proof is accepting your own lack of pragmatic thinking. If you have no proof it isn't true you set your self up for ridicule!,

Wrong. Science accepts any theory if proof is given. Again i will state youi cannot disprove there is a planet made of candyfloss and yet science won't accept that unless i prove it to be true. If we accept creain just because you cannot prove god doesn't exist, then you better accept my candyfloss planet under the same principle. You prove creation to me and i'll back it within science.

You don't udnerstand science at all, you have to have evidence to support your claims, undergo peer review and then if it's correctyou are accepted. Creation has not presented any evidence which even mildy gives any idea of a creator. The closest you can come is the universal contants and there are many good arguments as to why these wouldn't need to be designed.

Originally posted by azblack
I have already stated to you on numerous occasions Ibelieve 100 percent in evolution. I also believe the bible helps prove it, no one will argue that case because you are so livid in destroying any ounce of faith.

Well if you believe in evolution my apologies for mistaking you as a creationist believer. You have defended creationism and yet creationists argue evolution doesn't exist. It seems you are more in line with Id proponents. The ones who believe evolution is correct but it's gods design.

As i have agrued before, if god existed then evolution would be gods creation, so the original premise of the thread where i stated teaching creationism is unfair we agree on according to what you just said. Where we wouldn't agree is ID, which is a different issue.

Originally posted by azblack
We are not argueing about evolution, it would be stupid for me to argue about somethng I believe in, What we are discussing is creationism, right? The big bang theory has facts in the theory, but still is just a guess at how everything started, The religious creationism is the same thing, just you haven't taken the time to really research it.

The big bang is a guess, with sme mathmatics to back it up, sadly i have less faith in theoretical maths than most people do, it's very open to abuse, made to fit a theory. This is why i'm agnostic, not atheist. However when it comes to creationism i am fundamentally against it as creationism is the opposite of evolution, i have taken many years to research these issues, maybe you don't understand creationism? Becuase if you believe evolution you can't believe creationism, you can however believe in god and evolution if you support the ID model.

Originally posted by azblack
The Bible in Genesis says God created everything in 6 days rested on the 7th. But then it goes on to talk of Adam and Eve, how they ate from the tree of knowledge then god changed them, it proves evolution if you read it word for word and keep an open mind.

Sorry it doesn't prove evolution, that's not an open mind that's a mind searching in hope to find something that matches evolutions model. I have read the bible, all of it, along with the Quran, Buddhist texts and even wiccan ideals. Accuse me of not researching the issue if you wish but i've read about religion for years.

Originally posted by azblack
What do you consider the God I speak about, do you think I believe there's some really big guy up there pushing buttons. I believe several things, all of which I will not list, but I belive the god spoken of in the Bible is the force which drives life, a cosmic power which hasn't and may never be completely understood. Evolution explains only that which I can see or observe, what really drives it? There are things we don't understand and I don't limit my thoughts to only scientific explination. For instance If I steal something I believe what other religions call Karma, eventually this act will come back to me. This cannot be proven,only you experience those individual circumstances. You prefer us to be a society free from morals where people don't believe in anything unless they can see it with their own eyes and prove it? The world is much bigger than that, I believe

Believe away, but that's hope. The world is what we see, feel, taste, smell and hear. Whether there is something after death, well that i don't know and is again why i'm agnostic. I believe in a material reality, what happens afterwards is the mystery, that doesn't meant i'm not spiritual of course. Spirituality can be completely godless if preferred, doesn't need belief in a god to appreiciate the beauty of the world.

Originally posted by azblack
I would never call someone who believes something different than me, blind. I can see, I believe in those things you can see for yourself, however that's not the only senses you are equipped with. One of our senses are easily fooled without the correspondence of the others. You say I'm blind but, indeed, I do see the things in science they are easy to see, I also believe in original thought. You cna't rely on what other people have taught you completely with all these quotes of theory from some other guy's work. At which point do you figure something out for yourself, and open your senses to ideas which don't fit the models you have been taught.

I respect everyone to believe whatever they wish, but i was talking about it being taught in a school. School is for factual evidence, churches are for god. Creationism has no proof and therefore should not be taught as if it's correct.

Originally posted by azblack
I don't believe in God as one person up there pushing buttons, I don't believe much which is traditional, I also wouldn't believe in your candy floss universe, But I have a mind which would be open to that theory, I can't disprove it!

Then you are not just open minded, you are willing to believe anything as long as it's not disproven, therefore George Bush is a reptile, a planet exists made of candy floss, and thunderbirds really are go.

Believing in anything without proof is not science. That is my only problem with teaching creation in schools. Creation states god made men and women, plants and other animals and designs each one from scratch, evolution doesn't happen in their model, we are a static system. That is what i do not want taught in schools because it has absolutely no basis.