US Government admits botched job of WTC investigation

reply to post by bringthelight


Bring, let's make sure we're talking about the same thing, firstly. the term often attributed 'pull it' isn't always meaning 'BLOW the building'....and that reference in the video, by the property owner, is usually attributed to WTC7....

Now, as a much smaller building, by comparison to the two towers, it could very well have been pre-set with explosives ahead of time...but WHY??? I mean, pre-setting WTC7 with charges would imply a foreknowlwdge of the two towers....collapsing, yes?

then why bother AT ALL to try to fight the fires in WTC7??? Put firefghters at more danger, just for show?

You see, I have a logical mind (perhaps it's my downfall) and many of the 'conspiracy' theories regarding WTC just don't add up, logically.

In the immediate aftermath of the collapses, the investigations were hampered, and messed up greatly, by jurisdictional in-fighting, and that bastard Guiliani....trying to throw his weight around because he saw the road to the White House in this disaster....bastard that he is (sorry Mods...is bastard a bad word? *snip* it if you must, OK?)

There was a huge imagined need to get the area cleaned up as quickly as possible, it was affecting Wall Street, after all. But, there was the delilcate matter of also being aware of the human remains....better forensic methods should have held priority, in hind sight. If there had been, we probably wouldn't even be having this conversation.

I find, after after having seen the video of the towers ad infinitum, things stand out: The tower hit by UAL175 (the one hit second) was struck lower from the top. Although it was hit last, it collapsed first. Why? Because there was a great deal more weight above the damaged area. Also, if memory serves, it was the Tower with all of the communications antennae on the roof. Extra weight, there. In fact, you can see the antenna mast fall inward as the center structures begin to give way. Once the mass above began to fall, it was inexorable. The structures below were not desgned to have an unbalanced mass of steel and concrete come crashing down on them. By 'unbalanced', I mean even a shift of twenty feet, while not noticeable to us from a distance, would probably cause a 'cascade' effect of further damage, and weakening.....

AND, before anyone mentions 'free fall', let me just add --- objects in Earth's OneG gravity accelerate as they fall....just look up Galileo, he's the genius to add that bit of scientific knowledge. The acceleration rate is 32feet/sec/sec (9.8m/sec/sec).

Of course, that natural gravitational acceleration was slowed down by the resistance of the structures below....hence, what you see as 'free fall' was actually slower than normal, because of resistance below. Just as a skydiver will accelerate only to a point....then air resistance provides an equilibrium speed....generally, when 'spread-eagled', about 120 MPH.

Certain predator birds, say the Falcon, can dive by streamlining their bodies and reach 200MPH or more....they are using a 'gravity assist' if you will....to catch prey on the 'fly'....

WW

reply to post by ATruGod


EXACTLY!! the building should have fallen towards its injury! not into itself!! its like blowing out your knee and somehow both your legs crumble on to themselves..... you should have fallen over but no. somehow the legs just crumbled... give me a break.. and before 911 no steel frame high rise in history has gone down due to fires..

Interesting of quickly the initial invrstigations into 9/11 happen drawing conclusions that were became a reasons for going to war. And how long it has taken to now come to the conclusion that the initial investigation was flawed. When there is an agenda in place the goverment seems to be well oiled and able to move quickly. As an example the clearing and disposal of the debri. And now these many years after the fact when all physical evidence is long gone the errors are realized,damn connvient.

Originally posted by thefreepatriot
reply to post by ATruGod

 

EXACTLY!! the building should have fallen towards its injury! not into itself!! its like blowing out your knee and somehow both your legs crumble on to themselves..... you should have fallen over but no. somehow the legs just crumbled... give me a break.. and before 911 no steel frame high rise in history has gone down due to fires..

And how do you know it didn't? Did they say how many degrees the tower 1 was leaning south? How many degrees does something need to lean before you notice it's off kilter, especially with something that tall?

reply to post by bringthelight



Like how many fire scenes you been at? Have heard the term enough
over radios - fire chiefs telling their crews to "pull back" or "pull it"

When you hear that over the radio it means get your ass moving out
of the building! It does not mean "blow up the building" - in fact have
never seen or heard of a building being blown up at a fire scene
Seen plenty collapse giving the lie to the tinfoil loons saying "no building
ever collapse from fire before...."

reply to post by thedman


Pull back -YES
Pull it- NO!

I like the name calling, you call people who dont agree with you!
Like Tin foil ect...

reply to post by thedman


No steel-framed high-rise building had ever collapsed before the the twin towers were conveniently felled.

IMO anyone who believes the bush admins official story is a super sheep!

If you still find it hard to believe that these inbred weasels demolished the towers to sway public opinion into accepting an invasion of the middle east.... please go now and drink a tall glass of non fluoridated water because I think your brain is dehydrated. Then sit down and watch 'Loose Change 2nd edition' and Aaron Russo's interview about rockefeller.

peace

It's also been claimed that WTC 7 was leaning prior to collapse. Again, why then did it not fall to one side? The video footage showing the building immediately before it fell from several viewpoints indicates absolutely no lean. All sides appear to line up perfectly parallel to the sides of other standing buildings in the images.

The evidence is clear in the case of WTC 7 (and to a lesser extent the north tower) that a few people expected it to collapse. Indeed, anyone who was aware directly or by report of the multiple explosions taking place in all three buildings might reasonably fear imminent collapses of some sort.

Barry Jennings (Deputy Director, Emergency Services Department, New York City Housing Authority) and Michael Hess, (founding Partner and Senior Managing Director of Giuliani Partners LLC) visited the Office of Emergency Management in Building 7 on the morning of 9/11.

It is notable that they entered the building (apparently believing it to be safe) went to the 23rd floor and then to the Office of Emergency Management before Jennings was told by somebody on the 'phone "to leave right away".

The transcript pays close reading: Emergency Official Witnessed Dead Bodies In WTC 7

He reports explosions in the building before and after the other towers collapsed, massive internal damage and having to step over dead bodies of victims.

reply to post by cashlink


Again how many fire scenes you been to?

At a fire scene the fire chief is in charge - he makes the decision not the
building owner. Chief Nigro was informing Silverstein of what was going on
not asking his permission. The decision had already been made to clear
a collapse zone around WTC 7 . That day was in my firehouse in NJ
on standby listening to radio transmissions from scene - heard orders
to clear area around WTC 7.

How many fire scenes you been at?

Originally posted by weedwhacker
So, what you have here is a businessman property owner with a smattering of 'lingo' that he can spout to sound intelligent.

No. BTW. What you have here is a man, saying he's important when he's not.

Does Siverstein have any education on you?

Originally posted by Jeff Riff
I think that the American people really dont care.

We are stuck right now. Unless there is a huge media outcry, we are going to have to eat our words and know the truth is out there but nobody cares.

Hey guy,, who made you the social conscience of America? You don't speak for me and you certainly don't speak for all Americans.

First, 911 is almost a decade ago and we still see it argued among truthers and we still see debunkers trying to bury the whole thing and with ridicule and the typical intellectual snobbery as anyone who has engaged in such debates, being a debunker automatically entitles you to all the assumed academia of the best engineers in Science. It reminds me so much of the religion vs atheism debates and I have often wondered if their wasn't a connection ie: are most debunkers Atheists or vice versa.

When I am out working on my yard or walking my dog I I think all kinds of things. Just because we are not thinking about 911 24/7 does NOT mean we are not thinking about it nor does it mean we will ever forget it.

How this translates that we do not care is where you may be getting mixed signals as we have discovered many problems with our country because we DO care.

The problem is NOT about Americans "we the people" because we the people of the United States of America are collectively the most determined, hard working, innovative, Brave, and Courageous people on the planet PERIOD!

If you think the Average American is out of touch watching our media managed, manipulated news, it is out of habit but don't think we are not resourceful enough to get our news and research what is going on.

911 had awakened us to the very real corruption in our Government and the people had spoken and the President called it a "thumpin".

That is how American Government works but then we discovered just how sick she really is.

We found out that the party we just swept into office with all the pelosian rhetoric, suddenly became silent, sedentary and suspiciously similar to the party we just kicked out of the house and senate. Some of them, very few in fact, are the kind of Americans that used to embody the kind of integrity and character that was the majority of people in Government elected to serve and protect the public trust.

The kind of Men or Woman who put Honesty, intelligence and integrity before Corrupt Objectives, personal agendas and greed driven indulgence of what used to be an anomaly of one who fell through the cracks.

Now THEY are seen as the anomaly, heretics and / or "Nut jobs"

People like Ron Paul, Congressmen Robert Wexler of FLA who want to bring Accountability back to its place as the only mechanism of Justice and the rule of law that has always been a hallmark of the American experiment. When Nancy Pelosi tabled an opportunity to bring this President under the scrutiny of subpoena where he would no longer have the protection of his office to hide what we already know. We again discovered another part of America the cancer called greed and corruption had infected. Pelosi chose to put it off the table saying it would cause division among party members. Another words it would SHAKE THINGS UP! That is EXACTLY what these over worked, underpaid, over scammed, taken for granted, under estimated but deserving Americans should see.

The absolute stonewalling we have gotten from our News Media, our Governments public officials where the idea irrespective of how little time is left on a Presidents term in Office or the Division was nothing like we expected. It is assumed, such accountability should take a back seat and priorities like "convenience" or the timing isn't right has become the priority of what IS right.


We have again discovered a member of the cancer. It isn't Americans and as high as the Gas price is, I believe Justice should still come first and if the world saw George Bush taken to Jail in handcuffs with the sentiments of Americans finally getting past the debunkers the Pelosi's the Free thinking NWO influence infecting our voices with obfuscation and Bunk Bridal marriages where morality is predicated on objectivism, talking big about tolerance as long as we don't have to tolerate Christianity or the word God. and we wonder why we don't see the blessings of a nation whose God "was" the lord. Instead we see floods and disasters and Skull and Bones Satanists posing as Christians while performing an act of false witness as the imbecilic "fundie" Christian to add more insult to an already injured religions reputation.

I have seen this before if you know History, political incorrect phrases like "in God We Trust". such trivial pursuits to avoid cooties God might effect are better spent on keeping your mouth shut then wasting court room time in frivolity behind the guise of concern for Science when fascism and the religion of Science is what this entire decade of alleged American apathy is centered around and the distinctions for the argumentative styles displayed here on ATS couldn't have made it more obvious.

Americans Care and yes we all feel the pinch of our current economy with it's higher food prices exacerbated by ruined crops in the floods of the Midwest and the Gas prices by the greed of speculators, the globalists addicting us to Chinese products, while all this is going on our media finally brings us what is truly important, the Progressive era of more immoral decadence accepting new laws for more immoral marriages than the one I used in my metaphor of Government bed fellows.

Every time Americans have tried nevertheless we have shown up in force for election campaigns but that isn't the cure for this and neither is More legislation the old legislation already covers for tampering with a crime scene and obstruction of justice.

IT IS ACCOUNTABILITY

When those who are to bring the accused who are accountable before justice do NOT then it is time to purge the entire system clean by voting each and every incumbent OUT

All of them whether they are your guy or not. That means Ted too.

If you haven't figured it out yet, the people in our House and Senate are do NOT represent America are NOT Americans.

At least not in the American sense.

The only problem is McCarthyism which was way over the top back then, may be just right about the kind of men and woman living double lives in our Government.

A question I have seen so much it has made me so suspicious is NOT what religious convictions does a candidate have but more and more I see them asking whether or not they believe in "Evolution" ?

Who the hell cares! it isn't like anyone is going to see anything in our short lives as long as TOE takes.

Not do you believe in Physics or the theory of Quantum Mechanics. This is a movement started back when Eisenhower warned us about it. That it would take generations but would break the back of our economy. Not to start the one they want but just to WRECK IT because it is wreckable.

To infiltrate our Country that has been underway whose only real adversary was Religion but they have shut them up using the many comrades they already have in Office to influence church and state gag rules while media shows the most asinine examples of religious people that it just ain't in style to be anything other than a humanist. They have struck revised our history, disparaged the backbone of Freemasons as guilty by association merely because they believe Americans have the right to keep secrets secret.

This all may slow us down, it may break our stride, it may look like we are stupid or we don't really care. I think the question is not about us caring, I would die for this country and will never regret my service to her defense but if you think for one second you can say I don't care about America or 911 I can tell you,

THIS American would be in your face,

asking how BAD do you

want to know

- Con



[edit on 23-6-2008 by Conspiriology]

Originally posted by Griff
"Straight from the horses mouth folks. The "truthers' didn't make this stuff up."

The horses have long since bolted from the barn. So now they want to shut the barn doors? I have pointed out before that whenever there is a plane crash it is standard practice to immediately launch an investigation concerning the circumstances and great efforts are made to recover the black box. But not in the case of 9/11! Have we forgotten that Bush was against an investigation into 9/11? That he had to be dragged kicking and screaming before the investigating committee and not even under oath!!?? and that Cheney had to be by his side? Are we idiots to suggest that something very suspicious is going on here? How do the defenders of these crooks explain this? And we haven't even gone into the inconsistencies and contradictions of the 9/11 Report!

reply to post by Griff


excellent post...


wtb NESARA...

PEACE ON EARTH



REMOVAL OF THE EVIL CABAL FOR



PEACE, FREEDOM, JUSTICE AND ABUNDANCE FOR ALL



STASIS/JUPITER - ANNOUNCEMENT ON TV



WHATEVER IT TAKES



NAMASTE

copy/paste from
www.godlikeproductions.com...


much love to you all

I noticed the thread is going off topic, Griff brought to light something that debunkers have been saying for the longest time..."that the steel wasn't destroyed hastily" or something of similar quality.

He has shown them Definitively wrong.

I want to remind all that this letter is dated October 2, 2002. A little over 1 year later.

On a side note since I can't edit it. WeedWhacker, I apologize, I have no idea what I was trying to say last night. I blame the rum and coke.

reply to post by Griff


Well cool. This means we can count out anymore terrorist planes hitting buildings since there will be 'REAL' investigations done on the material. I guess the only other option is to just blow things up with the bigger bombs. That way there's no question as to what caused the destruction. The only question that would be left in that situation is the 'WHO' bombed us.

This is a joke. Seven years later they keep 'massaging' their story so that they can avoid a 'REAL' investigation. Yet the debunkers call people asking for a 'REAL' investigation 'cooks, losers, anti-American, blah blah blah'. What's anti-American about wanting the truth of one of the worst events in the short history of this country? Especially when the potential for 'inside' involvement or at least foreknowledge is possible.

This is just another deflection tactic used to assuage the people who 'may' have questions. It accomplishes NOTHING towards the real goal of performing a TRUE investigation of the September events. I'm sick and tired of these people and their dancing around. We need to scrap the whole show and start it all over.

Originally posted by ATruGod

Originally posted by thedman

• At 10:20 am, NYPD aviation unit reports that WTC 1 is leaning to the south.

Then how in the heck did it come straight down? Shouldnt it have fallen to the south since it was already leaning?

This doesn't matter to debunkers. The fact that the top of the tower actually started to fall to the south but then level off and straighten out as the structure beneath just seemed to evaporate is a common occurance I guess. You know, physics and all. ( I really hope you feel the sarcasm here.)

That has always bugged me. Not only did they just let go with hardly ANY resistence but the fact that the top of the tower started initially to head in one direction and then get sucked down just tells me that it was a 'timing' issue and not a 'physics' issue.

reply to post by weedwhacker


Weed,

The problem I think you are having with:

You see, I have a logical mind (perhaps it's my downfall) and many of the 'conspiracy' theories regarding WTC just don't add up, logically.

Is this. It has been proven over and over and over (add another million 'overs' in there for good measure) that MONEY rules over morals, compassion, sane thought and so on. Especially when you are talking about BILLIONS of dollars. There's the matter of how much insurance money he won for the destruction of those buildings. There is the question of how much money he would have lost to refurbish them and how much he was losing because businesses were leaving them due to their lack of technology. His insurance policy MORE than paid for the new structures. Why would he care about the lives of people he will never know?

Logic just doesn't cut it here. My logical mind wants to think that every human will think and feel like myself. In other words, have compassion and morals when it comes to other humans. That just isn't the case. Look at the tobacco industry. They KNEW what poisons in the cigarettes did to people and yet they worked harder and harder to make them more and more addictive. They got caught and had to pay fees. Who cares. They don't because they are still raking in billions. It's not about logic. It's about MONEY!

So, another thing, IF, and I do say IF (even though I am more and more leaning that way) the government did have a hand in this act, then of COURSE they would want as much death and destruction as possible. Why? Because the only way we can establish a foothold in the Middle East with the support of the civilians of the U.S. is for a 'New Pearl Harbor' to take effect. Well, that definitely fit the bill with all of the lives lost both civilian and public service.

How many BILLIONS have Haliburton gained because of 911? Hundreds! How many BILLIONS have oil futures and companies made in direct correlation with 911? Hundreds!
How many TRILLIONS of dollars have been borrowed from the 'World Bank'/Federal Reserve at nasty interest to fund this war that is in direct correlation with 911? Well, let's put it this way. More than EVERY OTHER PRESIDENT IN THE HISTORY OF THIS COUNTRY HAS BORROWED COMBINED! That's what this president has accomplished.

So, if it's a matter of logic to you then maybe you will like the logical sequence of the very few events listed above that have come of this event.

Logically I could conclude that either A) the government knew about it and did nothing or had a hand in the event or B) are taking complete advantage of the event and RAPING the people of this country and others of their financial livlihood while many in government get richer and richer.

Pretty sick when try to add logic to it. Remember, logic has NOTHING to do with human compassion or morals. Especially with BIG money involved.

reply to post by thedman


Leaving the Giuliani issue aside for a moment:

Griff's OP is an example of how the story of 9/11 continues to be massaged by officials of the US Government. I think it's an attempt by the government to recover some vestige of moral rectitude, kind of like a wife beater who takes the kids out for popsicles just to show what a great guy he is.

You quote numerous statements from firemen in which they recall observing that the building appeared to be losing stability.

This is another example of how the story has been massaged, because they don't mention the cause of the increasing instability observed, which was bombs going off in the building. Check out these statements from firemen and others on the scene.

Google Video Link

Chief Albert Turri is one of the most famous of the firehouse lip zippers who dummied up after 9/11 and got onside with the powers that be.


[edit on 24-6-2008 by ipsedixit]

I guess no one wants to touch the fact I have proven the government even admits that the steel was carted away before any investigation or even an expert examined it?

What was it that the letter says? The law that Bush and Hillary Clinton, et all signed.

Oh yeah, "lost forever". Hmm....