... when they firmly deny that Jesus is the son of God?

Indeed Jesus was prophecised and destined to come.. The books of Isaiah, Jeremiah, and Ezekiel all predict the coming of Jesus, but in not one verse do they say he will be the Son of God.

The whole trinity concept of the father, son, and holy spirit wasnt even though of up until the new testament came.

This is the truth: if you were a hebrew israelite living in the time of Moses and you spoke of a Son of God and a trinity, you will surely be stoned to death.

That was simple, it was blasphemy... It was Moses who said, "O Israel, our God is ONE" He didnt say three or three in one.. he said ONE.

Think: How come Jews did not accept Jesus as the son of God? Because it was their FAITH not to. Asking a Jew to accept a Son of God back then would be like asking a Christian to say Jesus was not the son of God today.... that hard.

we're all sons of God... it's written in the Torah that we're all God's sons... so might it be possible that early christians turned the little s to a captial S.

Jesus, son of God..... Jesus, Son of God... two different meanings

Another reason why Jews didnt accept Jesus as the Son of God or the Messiah in that fact is because he didnt fulfil none of the messianic duties the Messiah is prophecised to do.

According to the Torah, the Messiah will gather all the jews from all corners of the earth to Israel... jesus didnt do that.

When the Messiah arives, the river Nile will run dry... that didnt happen.

when the Messiah arrives, the entire planet will have a knowledge of God... of course that wasnt the case 2,000 years ago...
0.........
there's many more....

of course Christians will say that he'll fulfil all those things in the second coming... there's nothing about a second coming in the Torah

Then Jesus came and Christianity came... may I also add that Christianity has Egyptian and pagan roots .

then the prophet Muhammad came and even if some of you believe he was of satan (i'm not saying names, you know who you are) he was really a PROPHET. check my posts "Muhammad in the bible" and "the coming of the prophet"...

Muhammad had a knowledge and preached things that were not accesible in arabia at the time... he had a divine knowledge given only by God.

Islam is the only religion to recognize the other religions prophets and messengers.

Jesus is mentioned in the Qur'an more than any other prophets, including Muhammad.

and christians have that doctrine, if you dont believe in Jesus your going to hell... really, everybody think about this for a second... HOW STUPID DOES THAT SOUND.

that doctrine says that jews and muslims who are more righteous than christianis are going to hell and that their good deeds are lower than dirt... HOW DUMB IS THAT.

Muhammad said , "Be they Muslims, Jews, Christians, or Sabians, those who believe in God and the Last Day and who do good have their reward with their Lord. They have nothing to fear, and they will not sorrow."
Sura 2:62

that makes a lot MORE sense.

Muhammad even makes clear that the Holy Spirit does exist.

"We gave Moses the Book, and caused messengers to follow after him. and we gave clear proofs to Jesus son of Mary, and we strengthened him with the holy spirit."
Sura 2:87


Muslims like Jews believe that jesus is not a son of God but a prophet, which are high crudentials itself.
If jews are God's chosen which they are, why would he leave them out to dry... he knew the jews wouldnt accept Jesus because it's written in their own BOOK!

No, Jesus came not for the jews, but he came for the gentiles... jews already had their book and their beliefs so they didnt need jesus.

"I, the LORD, have called you in rightesousness;
I will take hold of your hand
I wil keep you and will make you
a covenant for the people
and a light for the gentiles"
Isaiah 42:6-7

I have done many readings and research the past few years, especially this past year.. and i've come to believe that God sent down his three religions (Islam, Judaism, Christianity) to three different kinds of peoples.. God will not leave out anyone out of his plan for salvation so he has sent down a prophet to every kind of people of this earth.



[Edited on 1-3-2003 by Illmatic67]

I just told you why muhammed is not in the bible, yet you say read my post about
muhammed in the bible.

That is not directed towards muhammed.

Now, theres a huge difference because christ himself said he was god.

Ok so if all the prophets said a man born of a women would come ito the world to take away sins born of a virgin, and this
same man comes, works miracles, calls the high priest hypocrites, says hes god the messiah how can he not be?

if this same jesus was a hypocrite than would the prophets not of called him a hypocrite in prophecy?

he is the son of god, the messiah, the new sacrafice.

he created the new sacrafice to take away sin, this is in malachi when he talks about the offerings of animals and the abomination they are
to god because he sent the new sacrafice.

See the muslims and jews are living in OT times, meaning the still do not see the new sacrafice, instead they attack christ
for him saying hes god.

The jews still wait a messiah and the antichrist will be him, to the muslims also, they will do at his command wich is
(killing christians) at his command, he will say christ is fake.


Malachias 1:11

"" For from the rising of the sun even to the going down, my (name) is great among the gentiles, and
in every place there is (sacrafice), and there is offered to my (name) the (clean) oblation, for my name is
great among the gentiles ""

This was the (one) god talking to malachias saying that there will be a new sacrafice offered in his
name, the clean oblation which is the eucharist.

eucharist is the clean oblation.

notice he says (his) name is great among the gentiles.

whos name is this one god talking about of the OT?

Who elses name is great whom sacrafice is being offered to today?


In these days faith cannot stand because so much falsehood exist and is coming at us from
every side.

Even christ said.

"" when i come back i wonder if (any) faith will be left ""


I feel the same way.

Also the bible does not teach, those who are not christians will go to hell, they teach those who
are evil will go to hell, if you don't believe in christ you will be given a sign as long as your just and living
by the fullness of the commands.


peace.

Christ was prophesied and came IAW the prophesies. The fact that Christ is the Son of God is also not denied, the question of whether or not Jesus Christ is the Christ comes about because they expected a ruler type king to come, to be the ruler and savior of the Jews. Obviously, this humble man from a carpenter's family was not what they were (or are) waiting for.

No, the word "Trinity" is not used, and it doesn't have to be. The concept is clear from the beginning, where the Word says we are made in Their image, to where Christ is praying to His Father in the garden and when Christ tells the apostles He must go so that another may come, and he will never leave you.
There should be no murkiness or confusion to either issue.
The Jews are waiting for the Christ that has already came to come the first time, and the Muslims are not worshipping the same God as the Jews or the Christians in the first place. That is evident when one realizes that both in the Old as well as New Covenant, it is clear that the Jews are the apple of God's eye, and that the Christian gentile is grafted into the family only because the Jews were temporarily cut off. The covenant with Abraham is not broken, and the Jewish race is still God's chosen, and those that bless them today will be blessed by God, and those that curse them will be cursed by God.
On the other hand, Islam (Submission) teaches that the Jew is to be killed, unless he were to renounce God and accept Allah, and the same fate awaits the Christian and the other religions as well. Israel must be destroyed, or the Muslim is not being faithful to what Muhhammad directed. A muslim is to kill the pagan wherever he is found. To lie to the infidel is not a lie, and treaties with him are permissable for seven years so as to prepare for the defeat of the infidel.
Nope, doesn't sound too much like God and Allah are the same.
Christianity teaches to pray for the sinner and the ones that have not accepted Christ, not to give him the option of accepting Christianity or taking death.

Actually, Jews don't believe Jesus was a prophet, either.

Truth, who do you think Ill was reffering to when he said some bozo will come and say muhhamed satan and stuff? Also, he never said he read your post, you wrong again.

Second, Jesus doesn't fulfill any prophecy, so how he the one?

Third, no such thing as a virgin birth. Mary and Joseph were married, right? If married, it ok to have sex, duh.

Fourth, besides god telling you in your head the Jews messiah will be the anti-christ, have any proof? Jews before christianity, they don't have a satan figure, or a christ figure, for they don't believe in them. Like how catholics don't believe in peace and freedom, so they killed and still do(not as many, just a bombing here, bombing there, lynch there, so forth) when you try to be an individual.

Fifth, this is why I don't read your posts, at least try not to, for your stupidity pisses me off and I snap. Last time I read one I made a post asking you why you run, why you only condem people to wrath of god when questioned, why you never put up proof, just a site that says you going to hell five times in one paragraph. Time before that? Bullets for believers, for if you believe you such a good christian and will meet god when you die, might as well give you a head start.

Sorry to anyone else I made mad, it just he has no tolerance to anyone who even thinks different. He says people crippled or have defects because a ancestor sinned, that technology that helps us live and be happy satanic, that god talks to him, and that when you question him, he either says face wrath of god, or will be judged by god. He even called the pope the anti-christ. Truth, so when Jew messiah come, he anti-christ, pope anti-christ, muhammed anti-christ, how many anti-christs are there???????? I know I'm missing a anti-christ, can't remember guys name.

james its not even worth it.

learn to talk like a man without the childesh attitude and i will repsond.


Now byrd let me explain some of your points.

One thing i must say first, if you have gotten this from a certain geocities site which claims the false prophet jesus, whenever you read this stuff
you can recognize their (agenda) by their pridefull words and hatefull talk.


now you seem to misunderstand the second coming fom the first, for instance.

Isaiah 2:4

This is a chapter about the end of the world and his second coming with the new kingdom of god, and does not
talk about the first coming of the saviour on earth.


"" Christ changed the laws ""

No he did not, he even said..

"" I did not come to change the law but to (fullfill) ""

with the new sacrafice.

The old law was the commands, the commands are still the sole core of the church of gods teachings.



Isaiah 60:21

agaain he talks about the second coming and not the first because we read the passage before isaiah 60
;21 which reads.

60-20

"" The sun shall go down no more, and thy moon shall not decrease, for the lord shall be ever lasting
light, and the morning shall benomore ""

"" And thy peple shall be (all) just ""

meaning the end of the world where (all) in the kingdom will be just.


again in isaiah 11:9

he talks about the final judgement when all people will be gathered from the four corners of the earth.

All will know the lord at the final judgment.


See they thought his first coming should be the second coming, but his first coming was not the end for them, but to fullfill
prophecy of the new covenant.


"" How can he lead the jews to the holy land if they are already there "" ?


because the jews there today are actually gentiles and are not 100% jews, theres a real excellent book on this ill have to post later because
it explains that the jews in the holy land are actually gentiles.

most jews today are not 100% jews but are actuallly gentile.



peace.

James, Jesus fulfilled all the prophesies in the old testament in relation to the arrival of the Messiah. Every one of them.

In regard to the third point, yes, there was the virgin birth, Mary. At the time that Mary became with child, she had not yet "known" Joseph.

Gee, "Truth", you are saying the Jews aren't the Jews. So, in that case, you are saying that the Israel that became a nation in a day is not the Israel that will become a nation in a day. The incredible return to Israel by Jews from around the world (as prophesied as well) isn't the return at all. The exodus from Russia (As foretold in the Bible) isn't the real exodus from Russia and return home.
I disagree on the obvious grounds.

TC, they were married!!!! What wrong with married people having sex? And only way you know they hadn't is through a book that has been edited a few million times. And he fulfilled all in old testament, old testament made after he came. Of course he filled all of them!!!! It was written after he here!!!! I'll write a book that says since Ted Bundy from Married with Children scratched himself, he is the new messiah. Yes, it written after he did it, so he fulfilled it.

Also, like you do, you don't answer questions, I asked how many anti-christs are there. You already named three, and one that I couldn't remember. And childish? I'm just pissed that you say such stupid and ignorant things, and say you right cause god talks to you, not because you have proof. You also ask me to talk like a man, how about walk like a man? Of course, he sang like a woman. And how about you talk like a sane human? Or like someone who doesn't believe the voices in his head and does what they say.

"I use to be schizo, but we're ok now" A shirt, bumber sticker, what truth tells himself everyday.

Truth, what I posted is not an anti-anything site.

Those are the JEWISH Messiah's signs. This is what the Jews believe. This is why they're not Christians.

Jesus didn't fit the signs. He wasn't a leader who collected the Jews together in a homeland and he didn't rebuild the Temple. The prophecies have to do with a physical homeland and a physical temple... not metaphoric.

The Jews don't recognize a "Second Coming."

The Christians recognize a different set of "Messianic signs" (as is probably apparent to most by now) Christians would not accept the Jewish messiah when he arrived (because he wasn't fulfilling any of the Jesus Returns prophecies... and likewise, Jesus (historic or returning) wouldn't fulfill the Jewish prophecies.

James TL-- actually, the Torah (Old Testament) was put to gether about 70 years before Jesus was born... so it was new to those generations. However, they have a tradition of exact copying and I suspect that little editing got done.

And after reading what several scholars and apologists wrote, I gather that the "antichrists" are basically anyone who isn't for the Church. That makes all agnostics, Buddhists, Muslims, Pagans, Atheists, Hindus, Daoists, Bah'ai, etc, etc, AND Jews... all "antichrists."

Well, they may not have, but the church did. Also, why you think there are five million versions?

And good point, not just truth, but the church, you don't agree, anti-christ! Wow, I am famous, I'm a anti-christ. So are more then 75% of the people. Way to many if you ask me.

ok, for the first time in a LONG time I'm going to agree with Truth on ONE thing and he's correct

that the jews today are not the original hebrew israelite who are the chosen one.... thomas your dead on this one.

I dont want to go back to the race agena but on this topic it's necessary... jews today KNOW that they are NOT the ORIGINAL hebrew israelite.. that's why their called "jew" or "israeli"... not hebrew or israelite.

Jerusalem back then was like a beautiful virgin woman.. EVERYBODY wanted to be part of it... when romans, persians, babyloians , etc all lived in israel.... they converted to judaism and the TRUE HEBREW ISRAELITE was exciled to africa, asia, etc..

I might be a descendant of Abraham and not even know it, you too, and everyone else on this board.

the true hebrew israelite is lost in the wilderness , walking blindly... it's true that the pale skinned jews of today are not the true hebrews.

truth, you said isaiah mentioned the second coming?? WHERE!!!!!!!!!!! I dont see it no where.

thomas, you should lose all posting privelages after what you said, seriously.

and the Muslims are not worshipping the same God as the Jews or the Christians in the first place

what in the hell are you talking about????? the first muslims wanted to find the true religion of Abraham... they didnt want to associate themselves with the corrupt christian church when it mixed with european politics..

did you get what i said? the religion of ABRAHAM.. the father of EVERYTHING..

say:
we believe in God,
and what was revealed to us,
and what was revealed to ABRAHAM and Ishmael,
and Isaac and Joseph and the tribes
and what was given to Moses and Jesus
Sura 2:136

a man of your knowledge- i cant believe you said that.

On the other hand, Islam (Submission) teaches that the Jew is to be killed, unless he were to renounce God and accept Allah, and the same fate awaits the Christian and the other religions as well

man dont sit there and tell me christianity is holy and has never shed blood.

in the islamic empire... muslims were able to live with the jews in PEACE... muslims and jews had tents right next to each other..
but in christian europe it was a whole different story... jews and muslims were persecuted and murdered trying to practice their religion.



thomas, research Islam before you talk, and make sure your info of Islam doesnt come from CNN

James, Jesus fulfilled all the prophesies in the old testament in relation to the arrival of the Messiah. Every one of them.

did he bring peace to the earth? no... religously probably since he brought a new kind religion... in reality.. nope.. because romans sacked jerusalem some 30 years after his death.

No, the word "Trinity" is not used, and it doesn't have to be. The concept is clear from the beginning, where the Word says we are made in Their image

ok , if that's true thomas, how come Moses didnt see it when he was WRITING the Torah... dont you think he would've been like "hmmmm, I wonder what that means" when it said WE created human in OUR likeness..if Moses didnt catch it was because it meant NOTHING..

to where Christ is praying to His Father in the garden and when Christ tells the apostles He must go so that another may come, and he will never leave you.

I wonder if your talking about Muhammad, because Jesus indeed say that another messenger will come after him and it was indeed Muhammad.

[Edited on 1-4-2003 by Illmatic67]

No, Jasmes, the "prophesies" were not written after His coming, but long before. They were written by men who were around generations before Christ. The Books of the Bible were not written at the same time, by one man at one table, as a Dean R. Koontz book might be written (A little plug for my favorite writer of spook-books).

Once again, James,
St. Matthew, 1:18 Now, the birth of Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost.
I love that Schizo T-shirt, James, BTW!! There's another one I have to get: "You're just jealous the voices don't talk to you!"

I'67,
The Romans sacking Jerusalem was no surprise. Christ even told the morners not to cry for Him, remember? He knew what was coming. Those who did not heed His warning to head to the montains were starved by the seige laid unto the city. The starvation was so bad that human flesh was eaten just to survive. The survivors were enslaved, and worse. A few decades later, another rebellion came, and that was brought about because the Jews were not going to violate the 1st commandment just to appease the Romans. This really angered the Romans. As a matter of fact, the Romans had the intention of removing the memory of the Jews off the face of the earth, and they named the Jewish land "Palestine", after the Phillistinians, enemies of the Jewish people.
Yes, I'm aware of the suffering brought upon the Jews by the Roman Empire.

Also, be aware that Christ did not assert that His coming would bring peace on earth. Not the first time. His next time of coming will mark the beginning of 1,000 years of peace, due to His reign. At the end, Satan will be loosed once more, and after that, Satan and his followers will be banished, never more to be heard from.

There is no difficulty in understanding this, as it was Moses who wrote Genesis, that Moses knew what he was writing. The fact that we are created in His image, and that He is a triunal being, and we are as He is in fact regard, is not the fault of Moses.

No, Christ was not praying to or about Muhammad, and Christ did not say another messenger would come after Him, but another would come (the Holy Spirit, which came the day of Pentacost), and that other would never leave us (those who accept Christ). Christ and Muhammad do not share the same God, as Christ is God and was born into Jewish lineage, while Muhammad demands the death of the Jews and the destruction of Israel. Christ is not a part of any earlier moon-god, but is the Son of the Living God, the Lamb that was sacrificed for the sins of the humans, who arose after three days (this denied by the Qu'uron) and sits at the right hand of His Father yet.

No, I am not talking about Muhammad, of this I am certain.

Also, be aware that Christ did not assert that His coming would bring peace on earth. Not the first time.

Yes, I'm understand this very much but my point is that there is nothing about a second coming in the Torah...Jesus was prophecised in the Torah but there is no second coming written in the scriptures.

Christ and Muhammad do not share the same God, as Christ is God and was born into Jewish lineage, while Muhammad demands the death of the Jews and the destruction of Israel. Christ is not a part of any earlier moon-god, but is the Son of the Living God

he's God or the son of God, which one is it thomas? first of, there's no way Jesus was God, I'm sorry... God would not walk on earth with us, no matter how much he loved us... and even if God was Jesus on earth, who was it who said from the skies, "this is my son and I love him" the easter bunny? No, Jesus was not God.

I want you to understand that Muhammad and Muslims worship the same God as the Jews and Christians, why is this hard to understand. Muhammad even forced all early Muslims to face toward Jerusalem for prayer before it was to Mecca.

yes, back then the arabs did worship the moon god and the three goddesses, and yes, the ka'aba was a shrine for about 360 gods... but that all changed when Muhammad marched to Mecca and destroyed all the idols in the ka'aba.

as i said earlier i can write here forever to prove to you that muslims worship God, Allah, and Elohim , Yawheh, same God- different name.

posted by Illmatic67
I have done many readings and research the past few years, especially this past year.. and i've come to believe that God sent down his three religions (Islam, Judaism, Christianity) to three different kinds of peoples.. God will not leave out anyone out of his plan for salvation so he has sent down a prophet to every kind of people of this earth.

Yes and God must be laughing his arse off, watching these religions kill off each other. Let's face it, religion has been the biggest hinderence to the development of man in the last 2000 years than anything else.
Religion will be eventually consigned to the dustbin of history as we evolve. Only then will the potential of humans br realised.

jesus is not the son of god!!

If god can have a son, he can also drink, eat, excrete etc.

get it right people god isn't like one of us, he is beyond are imagination, he's everything!!


Now truth i already posted what i thought in the "Muhammed (pbuh) in the bible" topic. I dont need to carry on with you because you think christianity is the true religion, and nothing comes close, well get a grip, do some research before you preach!

Moses came to preach the word of God, because jews were the people chosen by god, then they went astray, started committing sins and were cursed by god, the jews started doing black magic and only recently became intertwined with the freemasons, but anyway after moses came, jesus came and taught the word of god, but after he died, (YES THATS RIGHT DIED NOT CRUCIFIED!!) christians were confused and worshipped him as the son of god, that wasnt what jesus implied all his miracles came from the power of god because like moses he was chosen to spread the word, then lastly came the prophet Muhammed because he was the last man chosen to spread the word of god, he came to mecca destroyed all the idols and preached his word to the people (theres a video called 'The Message' in it you do not see muhammeds face because it is wrong to assume what he looked like, because it will never match the prophet himself, thats how strict muslims are to keep the teachings of god as original as possible, in 1400yrs there hasnt been a single letter in the quran that has been changed!) and broke the barriers preaching the word to all corners of the earth, islam was the strongest religion at that time and still is, its the most purest, it fought battles where muslims were out numbered 10+ to one, this was all because of the power of god, why do u think islam is slowly bein wiped off the face of the earth slowly slowly? Because people like bush, sharon etc are afraid of it, they portray islam to be terror terror terror, They know if the muslim people unite they would be the strongest force in the world, america may have the weapons and technology but from what ive seen it still doesnt stop a muslim kamikaze walk into a building and blow it to dust!

Im not condoning that type of action but its the truth with all the security in israel there are still suicide bombers, on the news, with all the technology in the USA there were still a small group of people who brought down the twin towers, some people call that terrorism and some call it heroism, because dont forget america has been backing up israelies who have been murdering innocent muslim women and children, for the past 30-40yrs behind the eyes of the camera! I dont like whats going on in the world today, but we cant stop it!!

We are gonna have another world war, because it is becoming so obvious, if bush attacks iraq, all the other muslim countries are gonna get involved, and in the mist korea have reactivated there nuclear technology.
So soon the world is gonna be unbearable again if not already, basically were f***ed no matter which way we look at it.

Just remember my words people when bush and sharon say 'War on terror' under the rug its really 'War on islam' they cannot say that because if they did every muslim in the world will stand up and fight, they are stronger than you and me think!!

May God (Not 'the son of god') open your eyes Truth, your in great need of it, im only 17yrs old and i no where my head is, maybe you should take a leaf out of my book!

Peace to u illmatic67, keep lining these topics up so i can knock 'em down, lol

it fought battles where muslims were out numbered 10+ to one, this was all because of the power of god

try 20 to 1... maybe even 25 to 1.. God was with them but to people here it's hard to accept that God is with the Muslim people.

in 1400yrs there hasnt been a single letter in the quran that has been changed!)

Before Muhammad came, arabs were looking for the PURE, TRUE RELIGION which was Abraham's religion, today... Islam might be that religion because today jews still stray off Abraham's religion a bit.

im only 17yrs old and i no where my head is, maybe you should take a leaf out of my book!

lol, this board is been outshined by teenagers... I just turned 18 last month.

I hate to break it to any of you, but God doesn't side with ANY man.

Sincerely,
no signature

Oh thats right, i am now convinced seeing as that statement came from a freemason, lol