Recent Mars Phoenix Data

In reference to this article...

ap.google.com...

According to Nasa, Mars atmospheric readings for pressure and temp for the area of the Mars Phoenix Lander...

www.lpi.usra.edu...

189.1–256.7 kelvin or -119.47 ° F to 2.39 °Fahrenheit

Mars has a pressure of 6 millibars (A little less than water triple point at 1 Celsius) 0.7% earths atmosphere

Now the above articles states the "spots of interest disappeared"

One assumes that the 'Spots are bits or pieces of ice", now my question is regarding the triple point of water; surface temps at that location that have been publicized, its seems that the "spots" if were indeed "ICE", then the pieces should not have sublimated as stated

unless:

a.) the temperature is greater than NASA announces for this region

b.) or the pressure is less than Nasa announces,

c.) or other conditions outside my knowledge?

Now anyone have another idea what is going on? Is This assessment valid?

reply to post by theability


Hi theability, I for one have always thought the temperatures on Mars were higher then admitted by NASA. Lets think logically for a moment if ice melts on Earth when heated and melts at above 0 degrees C. and if the sample taken is on the surface of Mars would you not have a wet spot at that location where it melted if the ice was composed of H20? Now there is the possibility that it was dry ice, frozen CO2, and it starts to turn into gas at -78 degrees C. therefore not leaving a wet spot. Yes I do realize scientists think the South Pole on Mars contains dry ice but not so much in the North Polar Region.

I do realize the pressure is different on Mars then on Earth and that also plays into the equation. If the time between photos was long enough evaporation of the H2O by the Martian air with the help of maybe wind could of taken place without a trace of water residue left behind. If the sample was salt it could of melted but would more then likely have left a white residue where it was located.

Another couple of alternatives are that intelligent life forms from Mars or our own Secret Astronaut Program came along and took the ice away leaving no trace of the ice. We can go on and on with the possibilities let see how it plays out. Rik Riley


[edit on 21-6-2008 by rikriley]

When I first read about that, I thought, how does ice evaporate? Can it evaporate? Being an English major I had to look that up after reading NASA's latest news...

Can snow and ice evaporate in freezing temperatures?
NO, 0 degrees Celcius (32 degrees Ferenheight) is the freezing point of water and the melting point of Ice. Snow and Ice must be above 0 degrees celcius (32 Ferenheight) to melt to water and then the water will start to evaporate.

NO, 0 degrees Celcius (32 degrees Ferenheight) is the freezing point of water and the melting point of Ice. Snow and Ice must be above 0 degrees celcius (32 Ferenheight) to melt to water and then the water will start to evaporate.

Link To WikiAnswers

The answer I got was that above, but it didn't take into account the pressure/atmosphere though, so I wondered, what was going on, and was hoping to read the answer about this on ATS, so starred and flagged

So what's the story, is there any way that ice can evaporate without a temperature increase? Perhaps under higher or lower pressure etc? Otherwise, I see no other conclusion then the one that points to NASA not giving us the real facts about the temperatures on Mars?

Now the way I am thinking the soil samples scooped up by the Phoenix mission visually were some what clumped up. As a kid when I threw a piece of dirt and it was clumped up like a solid piece of rock a couple of things came to mind. The SOM or soil organic matter or material was usually decayed plant life in the clay that kept it together along with the composition of the minerals in the clay to form this hard piece of dirt that became hardened after air drying when originally saturated with water. Could this clumping be the sign of organic matter in the soil sample on Mars?

Here is the question here on Earth we give water a specific gravity of 1 and salt water approx 1.02 then what is the specific gravity of water on Mars .38 ? I do know that the gravity on Mars is about 38% of that of Earth in other words if you weighed a 100 lbs on Earth you would weigh 38 Lbs on Mars. The spa business will be a boom on Mars LOL. Rik Riley

...so as this NASA story goes they never share the correct facts with us!...


I have been going over more data and it still stands that there is no way that ice can melt or sublimate with the conditions they propose.

One thing I wonder is this:

...The temperature is higher, the pressure is high enough to be above the vapor state and in photos not released is liquid water in that trench in front of front of the Phoenix Lander, hence the reason for having to show 4 photos over four sols.


...just a thought...

reply to post by LateApexer313


LateApex, you should have done more research.

Water ice can "sublimate"..... that means, it transitions from the solid to the gaseous state, without transitioning first to the liquid state.

It's not an experience we see often in our environment, so I can see how people just can't grasp it. But, actually, you can see it in your own freezer.

Ever noticed how a really old ice-cube in your freezer will gradually shrink???

Yes I agree you can see where the water is trenched in some of the photos near the Phoenix Lander this is a dead give away when it comes to the smoothness of the surface area where water passes over, settles in and seeps thru the soil on Mars. You will also notice the darker areas where water once stood and in some instances is masked by NASA. Rik Riley

reply to post by weedwhacker


Hey hey, thanks weedwhacker! No I didn't know that and you're right I didn't search for the correct subject....so it can "sublimate" well there you go! Thanks for posting that, and no my ice never sits around long So I had no idea, I knew someone would explain to me how that works, thanks!

As weedwacker said, the water-ice will sublimate into gas on Mars -- not because of high temperatures, but becuase of low atmospheric pressure.

The same thing would happen on Earth at cold temperatures in a vacuum -- ice (or water) will become water vapor in vacuum conditions, even at low temparatures.

Think of it this way: Normally here on Earth, air pressure pushes down on the water thus keeping it at a liquid state. If that air pressure is removed, then there is nothing keeping the water molecules squeezed together into it's liquid state, so the molecules are free to float off into the atmosphere as a gas, even at normal temperatures of 20 degrees centigrade.

So it's not warmth that's causing the sublimation, but the low atmospheric pressures.

[edit on 6/21/2008 by Soylent Green Is People]

reply to post by Soylent Green Is People

So it's not warmth that's causing the sublimation, but the low atmospheric pressures.

if that were true than how can it be there to begin with ? does one inch of dirt stop the atmospheric pressure from dissipating it ?

i would think that temperature would have some factor in this in order for it to even be there.

During the course of sublimation, the conditions are not enough to sustain the phase of liquid, so the material "BOILS" off.

Exactly as one would see with dry ice, the vapor is carbon dioxide going from solid phase changing to vapor by reaching boil point temperatures at the right pressure.

See triple point here:

en.wikipedia.org...

Sublimation here:

en.wikipedia.org...(chemistry)

Originally posted by theability
During the course of sublimation, the conditions are not enough to sustain the phase of liquid, so the material "BOILS" off.

Exactly as one would see with dry ice, the vapor is carbon dioxide going from solid phase changing to vapor by reaching boil point temperatures at the right pressure.

See triple point here:

en.wikipedia.org...

Sublimation here:

en.wikipedia.org...(chemistry)

it's nice to "discover" sublimation as a term but...

wouldn't it be nice that someone withih physics would simply do the math about water sublimation at max temp. and pressure present on Mars?

That would convice many of us,not just the simple term of sublimation mentioned...

reply to post by darkraver


about water triple point it clearly states:

"The single combination of pressure and temperature at which water, ice, and water vapour can coexist in a stable equilibrium occurs at exactly 273.16 K (0.01 °C) and a partial vapour pressure of 611.73 pascals (ca. 6.1173 millibars)



Water has an unusual and complex phase diagram, although this does not affect general comments about the triple point. At high temperatures, increasing pressure results first in liquid and then solid water. (Above around 109 Pa a crystalline form of ice forms that is denser than liquid water.) At lower temperatures under compression, the liquid state ceases to appear, and water passes directly from gas to solid.

At constant pressures above the triple point, heating ice causes it to pass from solid to liquid to gas, or steam, also known as water vapor. At pressures below the triple point, such as those that occur in outer space, where the pressure is near zero, liquid water cannot exist. In a process known as sublimation, ice skips the liquid stage and becomes steam when heated."




as we know by NASA's own info,

the TEMPERATURE on Mars DOES NOT in any case come even near the water triple point temperature of 273.16 K....

therefore it doesn't matter that the pressure up there is slightly under the triple point pressure

therefore it CAN NOT physically go nor into liquid nor vapour state


UNLESS the temperature up there comes ABOVE THE triple point one of 0.01 C (273K)....


The diagram says it all:

en.wikipedia.org...




Someone is lying here and it ain't the water's Triple point...

[edit on 22-6-2008 by darkraver]

Originally posted by theability
In reference to this article...



According to Nasa, Mars atmospheric readings for pressure and temp for the area of the Mars Phoenix Lander...

www.lpi.usra.edu...

189.1–256.7 kelvin or -119.47 ° F to 2.39 °Fahrenheit

Mars has a pressure of 6 millibars (A little less than water triple point at 1 Celsius) 0.7% earths atmosphere

you failed to mention that pressure in the northern area of phoenix mission is estimated to be 700-1100 Pa( 7-11 milibar ) and the ground temp. up to 271 K






pressure way above the triple point
temperature almost 273 K (0 C)


this info makes your claim even more viable!



why are they lying so obviously?


[edit on 22-6-2008 by darkraver]

reply to post by darkraver


I did go through that and re-read that NASA article and you are right the pressure is higher(!!!) in that region.

Why are they (NASA) giving out such bogus info?

Any chance that Phoenix is in-putting heat into the 'ice' samples?

Or were we looking at the soil proper and not the soil and 'ice' in a bin/container prior to getting it into one of Phoenix's ovens?

reply to post by Desert Dawg


I would believe that the articulating sample arm would be at temperature equilibrium with the current atmospheric conditions. So any residual heat, or heating would not be a factor from the science experiments.

Due to the more scientific nature of this thread, and the fact that aliens nor UFOs seem to fit into the questions posed here, this thread is in the wrong forum.

As a slight correction, and to facilitate discussion in the correct arena, I am moving this to the Space Exploration Forum.

On topic, do we now have proof of NASA playing fast and loose with data? Or is this another example of NASA being too smart to use common sense? Or are we missing something here?

Maybe there is a simple explanation. Maybe too simple. Wasn't the ice exposed to sunlight after it was scooped out? Temperatures are always measured in the shade, actual ground temperatures may be higher.

There is no need of using the values that were expected, we have (for those that believe in it ) the values from Mars now.

The last data available, from Sol 22, is:

Min. temperature: -80º
Max. temperature: -32º
Pressure: 8.29 milibar
Visibility: clear

From Canadian Space Agency.

As for the triple point and all that, I am completly ignorant, so I can not help anybody with that, but I though that all chemical processes are affected by temperature and pressure.