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Is Jesus Really "The only begotten son of GOD"?

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posted on Jun, 19 2008 @ 07:13 PM
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Disclaimer: I'm a theist but not of the Abrahamic faiths. I have minor biblical scholar and scriptural skills. Also I am not a scientific/legal or medical expert in any field. Beware of my Contagious Memes! & watch out that you don't get cut on my Occams razor.All of this is my personal conjecture and should not be considered the absolute or most definitive state of things as they really are. Use this information at your own risk! I accept no liability if your ideology comes crashing down around you with accompanying consequences!

I have had major computer problems for the past month and have be offline since my last post over a month ago. I apologize unresevedly for any inconvenience it has caused anybody.

THIS THREADS TOPIC: Is Jesus really "the only begotten son of god"?

Explanation: Ok befor I disclose my personal "yes or no" answer to this topics question and completely bias both myself and the thread I'm going to instead lay out the map as I see it first and only then will I qualify how I see the lay of the land.

So here goes....

Note: I use the KJV but am willing to use any version you desire. I also use the blueletterbible.org reference site.

1) ok lets start with Jesus. the blueletterbible reference website cites 6 verses in the KJV bible that have both "ONLY" and "BEGOTTEN" in them. They are all new testament verses. 4 are in the book of John, 1 is in the book of Hebrews and 1 is in the 1st book of John.

Here is the list of verses that I'm citing...

Jhn 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
Jhn 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared [him].
Jhn 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Jhn 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
Hbr 11:17 By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten [son],
1Jo 4:9 In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him.

Now lets look at these verses in more detail. the 1st 2 verses in the book of John are written and SAID by the apostle John. The 3rd and 4th verses are also written by John but SAID by Jesus himself. The 5th verse does not reference Jesus but references Isaac instead (lets discount this immediately). And finally the final 6th verse was written and SAID by the apostle John. So we have 5 verses all written by John of which 2 are actually SAID by jesus himself which reference "the only begotten son of god". Now this seems highly biased in several ways. 1stly we only have Johns word for it (all 5 verses are penned by him!) and he references it even more times (1 more) than Jesus did which was only twice in space of 3 verses during a single conversation! Why is this important fact neglected by the other apostles when they wrote their books? But I digress..lets take Johns word at face value for the moment and move on shall we....

2) Now for the other side of the map. The blueletterbible reference website cites 11 verses in the KJV bible that has "SONS OF GOD" in them and I found a 12th verse that uses the term "SONS OF THE LIVING GOD". They are both old and new testament verses and split exactly evenly between the 2 testaments. All 6 new testament verses refer to humans who have become "SONS OF GOD" through Jesus. 5 old testament verses (all the "THE SONS OF GOD" verses) refer to angels including Satan. the final 6th verse of the old testament that refers to "THE SONS OF THE LIVING GOD" refers to humans living in Isreal in time of Hosea.


Continued next post ===>




posted on Jun, 19 2008 @ 07:18 PM
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Continued from last post...
Here is the list of verse I am citing...
old testament:
Gen 6:2 That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they [were] fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose.
Gen 6:4 There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare [children] to them, the same [became] mighty men which [were] of old, men of renown.
Job 1:6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.
Job 2:1 Again there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them to present himself before the LORD.
Job 38:7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?
Hsa 1:10 Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured nor numbered; and it shall come to pass, [that] in the place where it was said unto them, Ye [are] not my people, [there] it shall be said unto them, [Ye are] the sons of the living God.

new testament:
Jhn 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, [even] to them that believe on his name:
Rom 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
Rom 8:19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.
Phl 2:15 That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world;
1Jo 3:1 Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.
1Jo 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

Now lets look at these verses in more detail. starting with the 6 old testament verses (lets discount the 6 new testament verses for the moment but If you really want I can include them in the theological landscape we are exploring) 2 are written by Moses and 3 by the writer of the book of Job and finally 1 is written by Hosea. 5 verses reference Angels and 1 references humans. So we have 3 writers of bible prophesy who state that GOD has more than 1 son of which 2 biblical writers state as being Angels and 1 states as being human and all before Jesus's earthly existence.

Clearly there is a major inconsistency here between what 3 old testament biblical scholars have to say and what 1 new testament biblical scholar has to say on the matter of "how many sons does GOD have?". Which brings me to my opinions on this matter...

Personal Disclosure: If it was a numbers game then the old testament scholars win hands down 3 to 1 and on this basis alone one can comfortably and safely discount that Jesus is the "ONLY" son of GOD. AHHHH but Jesus was "BEGOTTEN" You might declare so lets look at this in further detail. Begotten in the dictionary is the past participle of the word Begat which means and I quote directly from the dictionary...."be·get –verb (used with object), be·got or (Archaic) be·gat; be·got·ten or be·got; be·get·ting.
1. (esp. of a male parent) to procreate or generate (offspring).
2. to cause; produce as an effect: a belief that power begets power."

Now out comes my Occams razor. In reference to procreation "how can the angels and humans other than Jesus NOT have been created by GOD?" and if they weren't created by GOD "why should they worship him?" and in reference to effectiveness "does this mean all the other sons of GOD are Ineffective?" and if yes then "Does this show up GODS crappy creation skills?".
Summary: Jesus CAN'T be the "ONLY BEGOTTEN SON OF GOD" because its biblically inconsistent and I believe I have shown this I believe I have shown this conclusively.



posted on Jun, 19 2008 @ 07:19 PM
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P.S. Pastor Jesse Duplantis once said "the Bible does not make sense. It makes faith!" and I agree with him fully on this matter.

Become totally disillusioned and finally see everything for real. Think Globally Act Locally Feel Internally.DENY IGNORANCE 1st.



posted on Jun, 19 2008 @ 10:05 PM
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Another example is 1 Chronicles 22:10
God declared that He would be Solomon's father and that Solomon would be His son.
This would have more to do with Jesus than most other references to "sons".
Solomon would be a type to Jesus, the anti-type.
God would establish the kingdom for Jesus, just as Solomon's throne was promised to be over Israel.



posted on Jun, 19 2008 @ 10:51 PM
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reply to post by jmdewey60
 

Disclaimer: I'm a theist but not of the Abrahamic faiths. I have minor biblical scholar and scriptural skills. Also I am not a scientific/legal or medical expert in any field. Beware of my Contagious Memes! & watch out that you don't get cut on my Occams razor.All of this is my personal conjecture and should not be considered the absolute or most definitive state of things as they really are. Use this information at your own risk! I accept no liability if your ideology comes crashing down around you with accompanying consequences!

Explanation: N/A

Personal Disclosure: Thanks for the heads up on the scripture you provided as Now it comprises a 2nd reference to humans (or in this case A human) as sons of GOD in the old testament and gives me a 4th biblical scholar that conflicts with the apostle Johns account.

Become totally disillusioned and finally see everything for real. Think Globally Act Locally Feel Internally.DENY IGNORANCE 1st.




[edit on 19-6-2008 by OmegaLogos]



posted on Jun, 20 2008 @ 06:54 PM
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reply to post by OmegaLogos
 


Are you a robot? You post like how I imagine a robot would talk lol.

Anyway, I didn't really read hardly any of your post, I understand the question you asked in your title though and I have an answer.

Yes, Yeshua is the only begoton son of God. There are "the sons of God" in Genisis and Job, other's have been called "sons of God", we Christians are even called "sons and daughters of God".

I don't know what your point was (simply because I have niether the time nor patience to read such an exaustive post), but I can guess, you probably think that Yeshua is not the "only begotten son of God".

Only thing you're probably not taking into consideration is the words only begotten, that means He is the only "born into flesh from the womb" son of God, all the other supernatural ones have are angels that were not born of flesh. When the Bible talks about humans being sons and daughters of God, it is talking about God's endearment for us, His love.

So there ya go, take it or leave it, I can't really explain it any better.

-Jimmy



posted on Jun, 20 2008 @ 09:50 PM
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reply to post by jimmyjackblack
 

Disclaimer: I'm a theist but not of the Abrahamic faiths. I have minor biblical scholar and scriptural skills. Also I am not a scientific/legal or medical expert in any field. Beware of my Contagious Memes! & watch out that you don't get cut on my Occams razor.All of this is my personal conjecture and should not be considered the absolute or most definitive state of things as they really are. Use this information at your own risk! I accept no liability if your ideology comes crashing down around you with accompanying consequences!

Explanation: 1stly I got your apology and graciously accepted a month late . I'm very sorry about the late reply.

Now moving on... I think I will leave it if you don't mind as your post reaks of a lack a applying oneself to the task at hand. If your going to post 1) Please don't make it personal by calling me a robot or as I see it implying I am robotically cold and ruthless when I post although through the impersonal medium that is web forums I'm just text on a screen I can see how you are not giving me the due that is accorded a human being. still thats what I am flesh and blood. And 2) Please actually put the effort in and read the post before you go off halfcocked. You might just learn something !


Personal Disclosure: Kudo's to you on the 50/50 psycic reckoning that you have as you are now tallied at 1 from 1 with me.

Become totally disillusioned and finally see everything for real. Think Globally Act Locally Feel Internally.DENY IGNORANCE 1st.



posted on Jun, 20 2008 @ 11:30 PM
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reply to post by jimmyjackblack
 


It always seems funny to me that when someone reads something in the bible that is difficult to understand, they go an English dictionary.
Better to go to a good Greek Lexicon, like Strong's.
In a few verses that use this particular word, the emphasis is on the uniqueness of the son.
The emphasis is not on how the son was conceived.
It might be better understood as,"the son, being the only son of the father."
The begotten thing is more applicable when the Bible talks about the saints becoming the sons of God.
In this application, it uses a different Greek word, where the emphasis is on the act of bringing something into being.
My way of understanding the relationship of God and Jesus is that Jesus holds a unique position.
Jesus is the only son who will be elevated to the point of nearly being equal to God.
We are taught a certain concept in the Bible about how God will be drawn to people who are like minded to Himself.
Jesus could have a personality that would have combined the best parts of the personalities of several different characters in the Bible.
God recognizes in Jesus a person who He believes He would have been, if He was a human.
So, God judges Jesus as a King would see his favorite son and pick to take over the Kingdom, after he becomes to old to carry on.
God sees Jesus and entrusts him to rise up to the level of God on Earth.
A lot of old scores will be settled with the transfer of power and much death will occur.
That is just how these things happens.
Consolidation of power, possible rivals and old enemies will be dealt with.
BTW-Blue letter bible blueletterbible.org...

[edit on 21-6-2008 by jmdewey60]



posted on Jun, 21 2008 @ 03:21 AM
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reply to post by jmdewey60
 

Disclaimer: I'm a theist but not of the Abrahamic faiths. I have minor biblical scholar and scriptural skills. Also I am not a scientific/legal or medical expert in any field. Beware of my Contagious Memes! & watch out that you don't get cut on my Occams razor.All of this is my personal conjecture and should not be considered the absolute or most definitive state of things as they really are. Use this information at your own risk! I accept no liability if your ideology comes crashing down around you with accompanying consequences!

Explanation: 1stly why should I use a greek lexicon for an english bible? I stated in my O.P. that I'm using the KJV!!! Thats why I'm using an english dictionary. If I was using a greek bible I'm sure I'm cluey enuff to use a greek lexicon in that case. Please read The O.P. carefully.

2ndly you state and I quote "It might be better understood as,"the son, being the only son of the father." and I refer you again to these specifics such as...."Personal Disclosure: If it was a numbers game then the old testament scholars win hands down 3 to 1 and on this basis alone one can comfortably and safely discount that Jesus is the "ONLY" son of GOD.".... and this.... "AHHHH but Jesus was "BEGOTTEN" You might declare so lets look at this in further detail. Begotten in the dictionary is the past participle of the word Begat which means and I quote directly from the dictionary...."be·get –verb (used with object), be·got or (Archaic) be·gat; be·got·ten or be·got; be·get·ting.
1. (esp. of a male parent) to procreate or generate (offspring).
2. to cause; produce as an effect: a belief that power begets power."
....and finally this one.... "Now out comes my Occams razor. In reference to procreation "how can the angels and humans other than Jesus NOT have been created(SIRED,BEGGOTEN,FATHERED) by GOD?" and if they weren't created by GOD "why should they worship him?" [ Capitalized letters in brackets inserted manually during this post so as to disambiguate the word "created" ] And I would especially like you try and answer those two questions I pose there plus the other two that follow them.

3rdly thanks for sharing your understanding the relationship of God and Jesus. It is most welcomed.


Personal Disclosure: IMO the apostle John was using a little to much artistic license with his writings but I qualify that so far I have only found it to be the case with this one vital linchpin thats not backed up by any other of Johns apostolic contemporaries! Anything found in this sort of scriptural isolation becomes immediately suspect in many different ways.

Become totally disillusioned and finally see everything for real. Think Globally Act Locally Feel Internally.DENY IGNORANCE 1st.



posted on Jun, 21 2008 @ 05:03 AM
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reply to post by OmegaLogos
 



Well, having read the Urantia book, I don't believe that Jesus is the only son of God, but since it doesn't have much credibility for most people, I know there is no point to justify why this is my opinion.

Jmdewey60, since I speak Greek (it's my mother tongue) could you please post these greek words here? Thanks!

Alexandros

P.S. OmegaLogos you might want to put the "Disclaimer" and your motto as a signature. That way you won't have to copy it every time you write a new post.



posted on Jun, 21 2008 @ 11:38 AM
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english:begotten=greek:monogenes

single/sole/alone/1 of a kind



posted on Jun, 21 2008 @ 12:39 PM
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reply to post by Alexander1111
 


I would not claim to know Greek.
I was commenting on Jimmy Jack Black's post.
He was giving us the English definition of Begotten.
I have enough experience of using Strong's Concordance to know that several different Greek words could be translated into a single English word.
I get lazy about breaking out a big heavy book to look up one word, so I went to an on-line version, namely the Blue Letter Bible that was referenced by OmegaLogos.
monogenēs is translated to begotten, in John 3:16.
The meaning is:single of its kind, only
gennaō is also translated to begotten, in 1John 5:18.
the meaning is:to be born
I realize that my discussion is actually off topic because I am not restricting it to only Jesus.
I am just trying to point out that you need to look at what word is actually being translated and how that word may also be used in different contexts and also that you may be assuming that it is all coming from the same source.
I have a habit of trying to string together different thoughts into what seems to me to be a logical conclusion.
I get things wrong in the details, quite a bit.
I do try to keep things within a certain range of acceptable possible outcomes.



posted on Jun, 21 2008 @ 03:07 PM
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reply to post by jmdewey60
 


Thank you jmdewey60!

Those words, however, have two different meanings. The word "gennao" means "to give birth" while the word "monogenes" (mono - genes) literally means "the only one born". The one is a verb the other is an adjective.

If you could post the verses where these words are mentioned in the Greek language, I might be able to say to you exactly what the author is saying.

Alexandros



posted on Jun, 21 2008 @ 05:29 PM
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reply to post by Alexander1111
 


I am not really helping here, very much.
What you just said is what I have been trying to get at.
Jesus is spoken about in two different ways, as for the "begotten" thing.
Either way, you can see it in a way that avoids the actual mechanism of how Jesus was conceived.
People like to think of a kind of artificial insemination going on that transfered some of God's DNA to Mary's ovum.
The point of using this sort of thinking is to back up a special sort of way of affirming the "true" son-ship of Jesus to God.
As if God had to use human conventions to have a son.



[edit on 21-6-2008 by jmdewey60]



posted on Jun, 21 2008 @ 07:39 PM
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reply to post by OmegaLogos
 


I'm not implying that you are "cold and unfeeling, like a robot" at all, you sir(or mam, don't know what your sex is) are the only one who said that.

I said you talk the way I imagine a robot would talk, you put stuff like this:



Disclaimer: I'm a theist but not of the Abrahamic faiths. I have minor biblical scholar and scriptural skills. Also I am not a scientific/legal or medical expert in any field. Beware of my Contagious Memes! & watch out that you don't get cut on my Occams razor.All of this is my personal conjecture and should not be considered the absolute or most definitive state of things as they really are. Use this information at your own risk! I accept no liability if your ideology comes crashing down around you with accompanying consequences!


At the beggining of everyone of your posts, to me, that is the way I imagine a robot would talk. It was in no way an insult, just an observation and personal opinion on your comunication structure. Sorry you were insulted.
However that whole "Disclaimer", "Explanation", "Personal Disclosure" stuff is really unnesisary, especially the "Disclaimer" thing, common man, your not a legal document lol.
I'm guessing you are practising a habbit of writing in that for since you are studying law (I think that's what you said it was, right? Correct me if I'm wrong).

The thing is, is I think you are considering the Bible to be a document based on linear logic, or logic based on what man has determined, this just isn't so. Niether is it God's very words or hand written by God, that's just silly. No, it is a compilation of peoples experiences with/of God throught the generations, that's something to take into consideration when studying or attempting to "disprove" what the Bible says. I can assure you though, it is true and infallible, however throught the centuries it has been tampered with, so you really, really, really have to study it in depth to truely understand it in the more detailed messages that it contains. The base message is simple,
"Love God with everything within you and love your fellow human with the same love you have for yourself."
To me, that's what matters most, the more deailed you go, the more studying you have to do.

Peace,

-Jimmy



posted on Jun, 22 2008 @ 08:07 PM
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reply to post by Alexander1111
 

Disclaimer: I'm a theist but not of the Abrahamic faiths. I have minor biblical scholar and scriptural skills. Also I am not a scientific/legal or medical expert in any field. Beware of my Contagious Memes! & watch out that you don't get cut on my Occams razor.All of this is my personal conjecture and should not be considered the absolute or most definitive state of things as they really are. Use this information at your own risk! I accept no liability if your ideology comes crashing down around you with accompanying consequences!

Explanation: Will certainly move my motto there when I can find out how to as I'm still a relatively new member (less than 3 months and have spent most of my time in this faith forum side of the website rather than learn how to place an avatar or signature but I'm getting to it
). I think I will leave the disclaimer at the Top of my posts as I have asked a lot of people and rarely any read the signatures and I feel I must disambiguate every time I post and do it right UP FRONT and besides it makes me have to work judiciously with the space I have left to get my point across and forces me to get to the point!

Personal Disclosure: Thanks for the heads up as I've been slack in this area.


Become totally disillusioned and finally see everything for real. Think Globally Act Locally Feel Internally.DENY IGNORANCE 1st.



posted on Jun, 22 2008 @ 08:19 PM
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reply to post by jimmyjackblack
 

Disclaimer: I'm a theist but not of the Abrahamic faiths. I have minor biblical scholar and scriptural skills. Also I am not a scientific/legal or medical expert in any field. Beware of my Contagious Memes! & watch out that you don't get cut on my Occams razor.All of this is my personal conjecture and should not be considered the absolute or most definitive state of things as they really are. Use this information at your own risk! I accept no liability if your ideology comes crashing down around you with accompanying consequences!

Explanation: You state and I quote "I'm not implying that you are "cold and unfeeling, like a robot" at all, you sir(or mam, don't know what your sex is) are the only one who said that." and I reply that you are stating obvious ie and I quote myself here "Please don't make it personal by calling me a robot **OR AS I SEE IT** implying I am robotically cold and ruthless when I post...". Why bring it up at all as it has nothing to do with the O.P. topic at all? Please focus on the topic and not on me.

2ndly you offer "Sorry you were insulted." and I accept it and agree with your observations about my communications structure but again this is not about me and you wouldn't need to apologize if you focused on my arguments and maybe try answer some of my questions that I pose in my O.P. rather than focusing on me.

3rdly you state and I quote "However that whole "Disclaimer", "Explanation", "Personal Disclosure" stuff is really unnesisary, especially the "Disclaimer" thing, common man, your not a legal document lol.
I'm guessing you are practising a habbit of writing in that for since you are studying law (I think that's what you said it was, right? Correct me if I'm wrong)". For a start I am responsible for everything I post here on ATS/BTS and I'm bound not only by the laws of my country but also the T&C of this website that I agreed to when I signed up as a member. This behooves me to disambiguate and be responsible UP FRONT with whats commonly known as the FINE PRINT about HOW I SEE THINGS! As to me studying law again I correct you and direct you to my Disclaimer and the 3rd sentence in it which I will quote for you here with emphasis---> "Also **I AM NOT** a scientific/legal or medical expert in any field."

And finally something on topic from you, you state and I quote "The thing is, is I think you are considering the Bible to be a document based on linear logic, or logic based on what man has determined, this just isn't so. Niether is it God's very words or hand written by God, that's just silly. No, it is a compilation of peoples experiences with/of God through the generations, that's something to take into consideration when studying or attempting to "disprove" what the Bible says. I can assure you though, it is true and infallible, however through the centuries it has been tampered with, so you really, really, really have to study it in depth to truly understand it in the more detailed messages that it contains". ..And my reply to you is as follows. "Tampered with" sitting 7 words from "True and Infallible" shows you are promoting ignorance! and regardless of what the bibles core message is for all Abrahamic faiths , for Christians one of the core ideology that Christ is the only son of God is what my O.P. questions and interrogates competently I feel. If I am wrong please show me where.

Personal Disclosure: I feel if I can't trust the bible at 100% face value then something is being hidden and that's promoting ignorance and would a moral really God do that?

Become totally disillusioned and finally see everything for real. Think Globally Act Locally Feel Internally.DENY IGNORANCE 1st.



posted on Jun, 22 2008 @ 09:51 PM
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Boy I sure do feel sorry for you man, from what I read it seems to me that you are implying that you are from a country that closly monitors discussions on faith and that every word you say could have drastic measures on your life. Where do you live? China or some crazy place that is obsessed with faith based discussions? I agreed to the T&C too and take personal respocibility for my words too, but seriously dude, in my country people can say what ever they want (well almost) and put there views out there without having to give a disclaimer before posting them.
I hope you aren't in any troubly with your country for expressing your views bro.
And please don't take any of my comments on this thread as insults or anything mean, they aren't meant to be.

-Jimmy



posted on Jun, 22 2008 @ 11:24 PM
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reply to post by jimmyjackblack
 

Disclaimer: I'm a theist but not of the Abrahamic faiths. I have minor biblical scholar and scriptural skills. Also I am not a scientific/legal or medical expert in any field. Beware of my Contagious Memes! & watch out that you don't get cut on my Occams razor.All of this is my personal conjecture and should not be considered the absolute or most definitive state of things as they really are. Use this information at your own risk! I accept no liability if your ideology comes crashing down around you with accompanying consequences!

Explanation: Again what you are posting about is OFF TOPIC. Please STAY on topic! :bnghd:

Personal Disclosure: As to your comment "And please don't take any of my comments on this thread as insults or anything mean, they aren't meant to be." I will take it under consideration when reading any of your future posts to me but believe me when I see a spade I'm going to call it a spade OK!


Become totally disillusioned and finally see everything for real. Think Globally Act Locally Feel Internally.DENY IGNORANCE 1st.



posted on Jun, 23 2008 @ 10:21 AM
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reply to post by OmegaLogos
 
jesus was a son of god because he was directly created by him like adam and the angels what makes him beggoten is that he had the same i guess you could say genes that make god divine a father is biologically identical to the son in most ways well it was the same with jesus and god jesus was a direct creation of god who was an excact copy of him except when he came to earth and emptied his divinity so technically he is the only begotten son of god the beggoten means the dna thing even if there are many sons of god there is only one begotten



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