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Originally posted by KrazyJethro
1) I don't understand if you are speaking of companies beginning this move or government
2) Would the unions be national or local? If national, wouldn't this be problematic? If local, how could you prevent them from becoming nationalized?
3) How collective are we talking about? Total? Partial? If partial in which respects?
On this point I disagree. When you say "selfishly making money", I really don't see all that much difference than "real human needs and desires". What you see as greed is simply an extension of self-preservation and I, for one, don't see anything immoral or selfish about making money (and as much money as you can for that matter).
Being rich or becoming rich isn't an indictment, nor is it selfish. Money is a tool that can be used in many ways. Some horde, some are generous, and some are in between. In the end, however, it is their money.
I fail to see what is exploitative. I would agree that monopolies have become the standard and we need a return to increased small business and small corporation sizes, but I think we might disagree as to how to get there.
"what is property, what is capital in their present form? For the capitalist and the property owner they mean the power and the right, guaranteed by the State, to live without working . . . [and so] the power and right to live by exploiting the work of someone else . . . those . . . [who are] forced to sell their productive power to the lucky owners of both." The Political Philosophy of Bakunin, p. 180
"The terms of social compact between these two estates of men may be summed up in a few words: 'You have need of me, because I am rich and you are poor. We will therefore come to an agreement. I will permit you to have the honour of serving me, on condition that you bestow on me that little you have left, in return for the pains I shall take to command you.'" The Social Contract and Discourses, p. 162
Originally posted by ANOK
Well the system we have now artificially keeps resources scarce to increase their value. Private entities control resources that should be available for all, not just those who can afford to purchase them. Human needs are secondary to the private collection of resources.
There are enough resources to feed and house everybody. But the selfishness comes from taking more than you need, because you have the 'privilege' to do so, and then selling what you don't need at a profit to those who can't exploit those resources themselves.
Sorry but I do see it as selfish. Capitalism is about self interest. For someone to be rich someone has to be poor, so the rich are a big part of the problem. Yes money is a tool, used to control and exploit by the ruling classes.
Labour is exploited by capital. The few have the means and the right (under this system) to exploit the labour of someone else, and the worker who possesses no capital or property is forced to sell their labour to those that own both.
When you work for someone else you are being exploited.
When you buy food you are being exploited, when you pay rent you are being exploited. Capitalism forces people to exploit others to survive themselves.
The ruling classes do nothing but organize and control the working class in order to serve them and make them more money. We don’t need them, we can organize and govern ourselves, but they need us. Why give up the product of your labour to a private individual?
In a collective, as a worker, you would directly benefit from your labour, instead of being on a fixed wage (with the occasional cost of living raise which is really not a raise at all)) that doesn’t change when the company makes more profit.
Originally posted by TKainZero
It is clearly evident that Obama is a socialist... everyone can see this... some, choose to ignore it.
Obama is a Lennist, of the Marx style of socialism.
Does he not realize that government theft going by the name of taxes takes away motivation from people? Why would anyone want to work hard if they know the government will take a large chunk of the money their hard work has earned?
Originally posted by davesidious
reply to post by Bombeni
And here we have another person who doesn't understand what 'socialism' is, or why it benefits everyone. The countries with the highest standards of living, and indeed the greatest freedoms, are all socialist. If you want to condemn your country to being behind the rest, simply because you associate 'socialism' with 'communism', and 'communism' with 'The Russians', and 'The Russians' with 'What my parents taught me to fear'.
Brilliant. Congratulations - you, and people who think like you, are far more dangerous for America than Obama ever could be.