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Is there any evidence to support the Covenant between God & Abraham?

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posted on Jun, 19 2008 @ 04:35 AM
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I have to admit, if there were any religion I would choose to follow it would be Judaism. A simple matter of fact is that three of the main religions rely on the torah. If I believed in the Abraham covenant I honestly would convert to Judaism.

To be clear of my intentions and point of view I like to reference my beliefs by saying: "I believe in Christ exemplified." In other words, I believe in what Christ taught and preached. A message of purity in many ways, but I do not believe him to be the "son" of 'God'.

So, to the Bible thumpers out there, a few questions:

1) Is there any evidence other than scripture that corroborates this account?

2) Why will 'they' not allow "Abrahams" tomb to be investigated or studied?

a followup...
Do you find this odd? (not allowing the tomb to be studied)

I believe this to be the biggest conspiracy, quite frankly, in history. If there is no covenant between Abraham and God there is no Judaism, Christianity or Islam.

It seems strange to me that God (as told by humans), in the Bible, expects 'His' followers to believe an entire book that hinges on one story, that took place thousands of years ago, to maintain a relationship.

It makes more sense to me to follow a less historical teaching method (like that of Buddhism) and concentrate more on the inner-workings of a harmonious relationship with 'God' rather than specific historical data/ records or testimonies of how the first men came to be or who God chose to be his 'people'.

Why include these parts into your message if you are God?

If you are God (the way 'he' is described in the Bible) then surely you would understand the complexities/ questions and hardships this would cause through mis-understanding or mis-translation. (not to mention the serious amounts of bloodshed this little story has brought about)

Like alot of you, I was told while growing up to fear God. Well, I am proud to say I do not fear the God of the Bible. I am also proud to say I do not know what God is. And even if by some weird chance if the human races' creator is some sort of extra terrestrial intelligence then I don't know if "He" is a "He" or some sort of other alien gender. In other words this does not strike me as important in the larger scope of things.

I believe people are so wound up in wanting to know what or who God is and be so sure of thereselves they are willing to believe anything to make that claim, even when there is no evidence. I don't see a big problem with that except that it has lead many generations into wars and serious hardship. Now, please understand that I am not saying 'God' or the religion has lead people into wars or murder/ killing, but the people who must think they understand what and who God is have lead themselves and continue to lead themselves down this treacherous path.

Again, to be clear I am completely willing to digress if someone could give one shred of evidence this covenant existed between God and Abraham.

Any thoughts?

edit to clarify and add:

One more thing I forgot to say here. Everything in physics, quantum physics and really anyone in the scientific community all pretty much agree on one thing. That is logic. There is one overwhelming/ underlying premise to everything, and that is everything is guided by logic. In other words everything seems to make sense. Some things may not be completely figured out yet, but so far the pieces to the puzzle keep lining up fairly well.

So, with deductive reasoning coming into play here, why would 'God' of the Bible (whom created everything that makes sense so far) up and change this structure? Why would he create everything so logically, then up and change the plan by creating something so un-logical (that is the Torah account of the bible) that it doesn't make sense when you break it down? This does not make sense to me.

[edit on 19-6-2008 by abelievingskeptic]




posted on Jun, 19 2008 @ 05:06 AM
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I do not think that there is such an evidence. But if person is a believer it will not influence him at all.
As for Avraham and God issue being the cornerstone for three monotheistic religions - it is true, but there is another "contract" situation - in exodus all the people are supposedly witnessed the God and signed their part of this "contract". Now if it happened - to this there might be evidence, because the story has a lot of details that could be checked.
Finding (or at least agreeing on single location of) mount Sinai first might be a good start.
Oh,almost forgot. You want to let archaelogists to go and dig in Hebron tomb? Are you aware of protest/riots/and even bloodshed that will surely follow? Exavating outside Temple mount is a major problem that causes daily friction, but this - i do not want to imagine what will happen here.



posted on Jun, 19 2008 @ 05:18 AM
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reply to post by ZeroKnowledge
 


I agree, this should not influence one to believe or not to believe in a 'God', but if you believe in one those three religions then you do believe in this covenant. Why do people believe in this covenant when there is no evidence?

I am not saying to not believe in God. I am asking why is it they believe this belief structure of God that does not seem to make sense or at least has no evidence.

If you are part of any of these beliefs this is what is at the roots of your beliefs. Why do you buy hook, line and sinker into it?

thanks for all replies



posted on Jun, 20 2008 @ 12:03 PM
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reply to post by abelievingskeptic
 


#1 the "tomb" of abrahem was a hoax

#2 in the new testement it is exactly what you said God should have written / revealed

#3 God Knew there were gonna be skeptics too so he put the history of sodom and gammora samson and such because he knew that those things could be proven and if all the bible could be proven except for one pnt than i would believe that pnt but people still dont believe the bible is true nomatter how many accounts of history or science the bible gets right people cant believe the things that arent proven

i dont see why people can believe what thee history book in schools says when its been amended plenty of times but cant believe the bible whose things have been proven



posted on Jun, 20 2008 @ 12:07 PM
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reply to post by abelievingskeptic
 
you have a hard time believing in religion because you dont want to follow nyones rules and to make yourself feel good yyou just look for contradictions in the bible even if they really arent contradictions to say thats why i dont believe in the bible



posted on Jun, 20 2008 @ 12:10 PM
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you write a book half a good ass the bile and ill believe its not inspired and can contradict itself

but you gotta follow a couple rules its got to have history in it poems songs prayers monotheistic and all aspects of the bible w/ copying the religion itself and making all the belifs up



posted on Jun, 20 2008 @ 01:56 PM
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There is a song in the musical Fiddler on the Roof called Tradition.
www.youtube.com...
Watch this part of the movie, on youtube.
This is what you need to know about Judaism.
That is the story of the Jews or the descendent's of the promise to Abraham.
These are people who think their national tradition is actually more important than just the pure religious aspect of it.
We, as gentiles benefit greatly from these people because they managed to keep these stories true, through the generations.
We do not need to take on their religion and they have no interest in converting you unless you marry a Jewish woman and are going to raise children.
Jesus went to a lot of trouble to set his goals beyond his own people and to reach out to the nations (us).
We have been provided for and do not need to get back into what Jesus came to free us from.
We should be able to accept the Bible as being as true as anything in this world can be.
As for proof, I heard a good show on coast to coast am last night about the prophesies about Israel being fulfilled.
The guest said that Mark Twain went to Palestine and said he thought that there was no way that the Bible could be right.
The cities were in ruins and hardly anyone lived in the area.
Every time any one would put up a building. an earthquake would knock it down.
It hardly ever rained and crops could not grow.
We have the fulfillment of God's promise, now that the people who God intended to live in the land are actually living there.
Israel is now the biggest exporter of fruit because they planted over a billion trees in their country.



posted on Jun, 20 2008 @ 05:02 PM
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well from what I understand man broke that covanent and so god had to send down jesus in order to create a new covenant with man.

Kinda sucks on gods end, I mean couldnt he have come down into another burning bush or somethin?



posted on Jun, 20 2008 @ 06:50 PM
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I didn't say the Bible has no historical importance. I believe it does. But it remains true that there is no corroborating stories or evidence to support the story of the Covenant between God and Abraham.

I believe this story was a way to confuse, and manipulate history through oral story with future generations regarding Abrahams (as a hyksos pharaoh) conquering of the Egyptions. And/ or possibly protect the hyksos pharoahs to remain in power.

By the way how is this not a conspiracy thread??



posted on Jun, 20 2008 @ 06:55 PM
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reply to post by iesus_freak
 


i dont have to look for contradictions in the Bible, they are staring you straight in the face there knucklehead


A little help here guy,
try not to think you know so much as to tell how you think my character is by reading a few lines I type on a public forum...that is unless you are claiming you are God...so do you?

[edit on 20-6-2008 by abelievingskeptic]



posted on Jun, 20 2008 @ 07:09 PM
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reply to post by jmdewey60
 


Im sorry I think you might have missed the point of the thread.

I am more looking for a corroborative story of the covenant between God and Abraham.

Im not sure the reasons of your tangents...?

Again, how is this not a conspiracy?



posted on Jun, 20 2008 @ 08:17 PM
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Do you have someone at home or at work or a friend or whatever, who could read your OP and give you an objective opinion?
Just wondering.
My tangents come from being a human and I am affected by personal experiences and thoughts.
I think if someone was to give you a criticism of your post, they might think you go on tangents.
My point is if we had this wealth of corroborative writings, we would not need the Bible.
We do have something that has no peers because of the dogmatic adherence to the oral traditions.
The fact that there are writings comes from the Babylonian influence, during the captivity and on-wards.
Otherwise it would probably still be only in the oral version.
We should be thankful that history has forced the hand of the Jews to put it in a form that we gentiles can benefit from.

[edit on 20-6-2008 by jmdewey60]



posted on Jun, 20 2008 @ 08:26 PM
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reply to post by whatukno
 


He did.
Read the first chapter of the Gospel of John.
It is named for John, the Baptist.
Not for the Apostle John.
John was God.
Most people think the preamble to John is talking about Jesus.
The Pharisees asked John if he was the prophet, or Elijah, or the messiah.
His answer was that he was the burning bush.
So God died twice, in the Gospel.

[edit on 20-6-2008 by jmdewey60]



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