House Democrats call for nationalization of refineries

Well heck, how many people in the Bush cabinet were former oil executives anyway?! They've had no luck securing Iraq's oil, and they've only just twisted the Saudi's arm to release more oil.

Big business is already in bed with governments globally, why not make the union official.

Let's get this out of the way right away...

fascism : A system of government that promotes extreme nationalism, repression, anticommunism, and is ruled by a dictator.

Now then, to see why this is a HORRIBLE idea, let's look at where this will likely lead. We have high oil/gas prices and most people (at least those that haven't read why speculation is causing prices that have little bearing on reality) blame the oil companies...so the solution is to nationalize the refineries? What's next...book prices are too high so we nationalize the publishers? Groceries are too pricy so we nationalize all grocery chains?

This is a slippery slope and at the bottom lies pure communism.

nationalizing oil is an extremely bad idea. and personally i don't think i'd put up with it. i'd definitely be calling my reps to talk about this.

I agree that speculation is a component of the outrageous rise in the price of oil; however, if it were solely speculation, producers (those who have physical oil) could easilly short and deliver said contracts bending careless speculators over and have them walk funny for quite a while. Alot of the action in commodities is legitimate hedging (southwest airlines did an outstanding job of hedging fuel costs, other carriers did not and they are going bankrupt almost weekly). There are a couple of things that can be done about rampant speculation margin supervision (currently 16 to 1 margin is acceptable)and better regulation of OTC and electronic markets would be an excellent start. I fear that we are once again facing (god this is sounding too cliched) a perfect storm in oil. Ramping demand in developing countries, weak dollar due to Bendover Ben lowering rates to save his bank buddies, the real possibillity of "Peak Oil", and refining capacity.

I blame Democrats for not allowing the US to utilize domestic sources of oil.
I blame Republicans for not allowing sensible fuel efficiency standards.

What an astonishingly bad idea that would be...

If there's one thing I can say for sure, the government cannot do anything better than the private sector.

They can go on and on for ages about how they're not interested in profits in the same way, and about how they can be more efficient, but the track record on this issue speaks volumes.

If anything, the government is more inefficient, less motivated, and highly susceptible to negative outside influence.

It's not as if nationalizing the refineries, or even the whole industry, would stop the corporate revolving door we now have in Washington. If anything it would make it worse.

That's the source of the problem, too much corporate influence in Washington - not too little Washington influence in corporations.

Ol' Bill O' said tonight that Iraq is now pumping 2.5 million barrels a day, and why shouldn't they give the good ol' US a break on the price for spending $500 billion setting them free? As if that will ever happen.

Immediate action needs to be taken to stop investment banks and hedge funds from acting as energy suppliers, and to regulate foreign speculation in the US oil market. As a previous poster rightly stated, that would solve the problem virtually overnight. The global fascist elite don't want that to happen, and they control our government right now, so there is currently a lot of talk and very little action taking place. Status quo.

We need to vote 'em all out of office in November and vett a new crew that will represent the people of the US instead of the global puppet masters. We're in for a fight, and we better be ready to go all out.

reply to post by jefwane


I blame both but not for the reasons you give. The fact is oil is low because of the dollar

www.abovetopsecret.com...'

and nothing else. Big government spending is killing the dollar.

reply to post by WyrdeOne


Call it a bad idea but the fact is its a national security issue and it should not be left in the hands of certain greedy CEOs. Why dont we just privatize our military oh wait we are look at Blackwater. Why not privatize our monetary system then...oh wait we did the federal reserve. There is some things government NEEDS to do not much but some and national security is one of them. This is national security and we should be sending people over to die and spending trillions to make CEOs rich.

[edit on 18-6-2008 by mybigunit]

Originally posted by WhatTheory

Originally posted by MrdDstrbr
Government control and oversight over things like oil, natural resources, currency and money supply, farming and agriculture, mainstream media outlets, etc, is way better than allowing control of all those things slip into private corporate hands (FASCISM), wouldn't you say?

Umm....do you know the definition of fascism? Apparently not because your comment makes no sense and is just the opposite.

Fascism is a government controlled by a dictator. Government has its place to make sure there is sensible oversight but capitalism is what drives innovation and makes industry work and our lives better.

A dictator rules over a dictatorship which is an integral part of fascism but not totally indicative of one. en.wikipedia.org...

Heres a good Quote-
"America more closely resembles a Corporate Fascism hiding itself under a Dictatorship that calls itself a Democracy, when it should have never been anything other than a Constitutional Republic."

Our government does not have sensible oversight. Special interest groups have lobbied and bribed their way into bed with the politicians who have wiped their butts with our constitution. Checks and balances went out the window as soon as the president declared a state of emergency and claimed emergency powers of office. The president is officially a dictator with the interests of big corperations above the interests of the people who voted him into office. If they really did, thats debatable too. The whole things stinks. Every election is fixed. All the news networks spew propeganda and disinformation.

I don't see my life getting better. Is your life getting better? I don't feel like I have more freedom than I did before 9/11, I don't feel safer, I havent got more savings, I havent had any time to pursue happiness because im always overworked and underpaid, unnapreciated and overtaxed by a bunch of jerks who want to spend all my money blowing up a desert full of people in my name, goddamn them.

I'm surprised that anyone is arguing over the issues that have been presented as fact. I, as well as many others see that what needs to happen here is for congress to STOP SPENDING and address our current outstanding obligations. Calling the investors "speculators" in my opinion is a complete misnomer. These guys are hedging against inflation, period. Oil has just as much value as gold, and possibly even more if the SHTF. It's the deficit spending that is doing this, and we are paying the national debt at the pump, known as the inflation tax. All of these other issues are slight of hand. If we open up additional drilling, which I am not opposed to, this doesnt fix the problem of the trillions of dollars, backed by nothing, floating around in the international markets. A move like that might prompt Saudi Arabia to consider an oil Bourse, but that's not going to happen, seeing as bush is obviously shmoozing the arabs with promises of nukes. You know, people worry about a NWO, but the NWO has been here for awhile. It's not about you as an Amerikan, it's about the rich maintianing their stature. WWIII could be around the corner. Just my 2 cents.

Now if they will just nationalize the removal and sale of minerals from OUR soil. They can do away with taxes and reduce the cost.


This whole disaster has been orchestrated so that they can justfy giving away OUR resources. This is America, We are Americans, There fore the minerals on non-private american soil belongs to U.S.

Shut your Congressman down when he wants to give away your property so they can sell it back to you.

reply to post by mybigunit

Call it a bad idea but the fact is its a national security issue and it should not be left in the hands of certain greedy CEOs.

Ever seen pictures of the old tall ships? Sometimes there's a carved wooden mermaid or a dragon or some such sticking off the prow, yaknow? That's the maritime equivalent of a CEO...

The FACT is that corporate power brokers own Washington. Our so-called elected officials were bought and paid for before their names ever made it onto a ballot.

So, the idea that we can somehow save the oil from corporate greed by entrusting it to the government is laughable.

Ask the military contractors if nationalized defense spending has hurt their profits any...

This is national security and we should be sending people over to die and spending trillions to make CEOs rich.

I'm all for national security. I just don't see how nationalizing energy resources will do us any good as long as we're at the mercy of a government that's been co-opted and thoroughly parasitized by various corporations.

Hmmm. Sounds a lot like what their hero Chavez did down in Venezuela, doesn't it? Shouldn't be too long now before the stars on the flag are replaced with a sickle and hammer.

Nationalisation is dangerous and pointless.

Any policy linked to socialism is a bad idea, especially economic. I do not trust the government to collect my rubbish and I would not trust them to run industry either.

I think these democrats should take a trip to Cuba or North Korea and see how nationalisation truly works

The democrats are just playing off the republicans. This is all part of a script people. There's no real ideology at work here, it's just an act.

The main goal of the government is to keep the people divided.

Peace

Originally posted by infinite
Nationalisation is dangerous and pointless.

Any policy linked to socialism is a bad idea, especially economic. I do not trust the government to collect my rubbish and I would not trust them to run industry either.

I think these democrats should take a trip to Cuba or North Korea and see how nationalisation truly works

How is it socialism for government to handle national security which oil is a national security issue. Once again why dont we just privatize our military because government military thats socialism isnt it?

Wrdeone or however you spell your name I totally agree the government is more so that it has its hands in pies that it shouldnt be in. People are waking up though. This will change in the next 20 years. The more and more the sheeple wake up and listen to guys like Ron Paul and understand that government has given the powers it should be handling itself to corporations and in turn doing stuff that it shouldnt be doing itself. I dont know how Ron Paul stands on this but to me I feel we should nationalize it it would save us tens of billions that can go towards our roads, bridges, and levees.

Originally posted by Dr Love
The democrats are just playing off the republicans. This is all part of a script people. There's no real ideology at work here, it's just an act.

The main goal of the government is to keep the people divided.

Peace

Totally agree why do you think this is coming out...I mean where the hell did this come from complete left field. I have never heard dems talk about this then out of the blue they bring this up? I happen to think its a good idea but still it is a way to keep America divided so they can push their real and true agendas. There needs to be change in government and it will come I am confident.

Originally posted by Dr Love
The democrats are just playing off the republicans. This is all part of a script people. There's no real ideology at work here, it's just an act.

The main goal of the government is to keep the people divided.

Peace

RIGHT ON TARGET! (oops CAPS!)

The truth is, you may think nationalizing the oil industry is a bad idea, but in theory it is the CORRECT way to handle a national asset owned by the people. You accept that the government manages our water no? You have no problem that the government is the custodian of our national land resources no?

Who is claiming the for-profit OIL industry is the holiest of holies and trustworthy to manage this affair with the interests of the national owners as their paramount concern?

The oil resources of our nation are not being secured, the illogical notion that this is somehow for our 'good' is a powerful meme created by the establishment to make certain that their commercial activities yield the highest return.

While I unlike many of you feel the nationalization is the correct disposition of the resource, I don't believe we can trust our current corporately-owned republocratic regime, (led by the corporatist junta administration) to provide the stewardship we deserve and would expect of public servants of the United States of America.

And for the billionth time I want to state - THE MEDIA IS COMPLICIT in this affair - they are owned by the SAME people who OWN what they laughably refer to as the 'two-party' system. The media serves the interest of those who are sucking the wealth out of this nation (and others).

Where is the wealth going? "Who" has it?

The side discussion of dictatorships and fascism notwithstanding, the basis of their power in a capitalist society is WEALTH. Control that and they have no power - why do you think the Fed is trying to play 'nice' now? Why do you think they are suddenly willing to 'consider' drilling for oil? Because they have begun to see they went too far, and if the pendulum swings too far in their direction it could cost them their choke-hold on our economy and political naivety.

Nationalizing the oil resources takes the WEALTH away from the controllers - as long as the controllers don't have control of the government.

Batten down the hatches people. This is gonna be educational!







The problem is that our government is no longer 'representative' in nature.

reply to post by Maxmars


Great post Max star for you sir. I guess this is what Ive been trying to say. There is a few things that government SHOULD handle and this is one of them. Because oil is such a national security issue to me it is a no brainer. National security and infrastructure should really be the only things the federal government dabbles in. Everything else should be state or private issues. Like you said look at water...it is national security and really infrastructure and the government controls it like they should. Roads, bridges, and damns the government should be taking care of. Obviously the government in its current state cant handle much but that is because their hands are in to many pies. Get their hands out of pies they should not be in and let them handle the few things they should. Oh and lets nationalize our monetary system to

reply to post by mybigunit


Ron Paul is a libertarian so he would not support any notion of nationalisation. He is against any attempt for the state to have control over the individual and his/her life. He would reject this - and rightly so.

(Check out his education and health care policy, he believes the government should stay well away from both sectors and allow the private sector to control it)

We (the government) should own the refineries. Then we can control how much gets out into the market.

That is nationalisation there. Nothing to do with security or anything else. Its the government legislatiing how much of the product will hit the market i.e planned economy.

If you plan and control the market then you risk ignoring external factors in your forecasting. You can end up producing too much or too little, both will be costly for the economy. And thats why free markets are the best approach - allow them to decide not the government.

As an old ATS member once said, the governments only duty is to prevent a foreign invasion.

And, some ATS members are forgetting, if the US governments takes the refineries into public ownership than YOU are paying for them out of your taxes.