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Originally posted by Conspiriology
Whoa there Mel I never said anything about supernatural, why is it you have to think I am talking about that? I'm just thinking there seems to be a directive here where "life finds a way" and that is all I'm saying. does there not have to be an intention there and if not then why does it continue ? This isn't to say I agree with the idea this e-coli will evolve into something eventually looking nothing like e-coli but just that e-coli as a life force finds a way to survive.
You're prejudice is showing like a mofo here in that you can not allow a divine foot in the door NOR anything and I mean any hint of any intelligence or intent thereof.
It seems everytime we DO figure out many of lifes mystery there are those that think this disproves God ie; "we know how this or that works so it wasn't supernatural after all so God didn't do it nyaa nyaaa".
I wonder sometimes if we are not doing the same thing with this too. We saw it mutate so that means no creator?
Originally posted by melatonin
Originally posted by schrodingers dog
So much of this evolution/creation argument is incidental. It is more of an internal battle within christian identity trying to reconcile knowledge with faith. The scientist is just the messenger.
I think that is generally true. But I fear it is not just christians, but also extends into the political arena for science as a whole, although the overlap is there in the US. 'The republican war on science' is worth a read. However, it can also apply to leftish politics (e.g., communism and Lysencko)
Given that many christians have no issue with evolution at all, I think it is just certain groups. Hopefully they'll catch us all up eventually, but they'll need to lay off the wilfull ignorance.
Originally posted by schrodingers dog
reply to post by Conspiriology
C, I think you are being a bit disingenuous.
You embrace and benefit from science every day, including as we speak and you type on your computer. I have never met a scientist who's out to "get" God. In fact most of them are regular church going folk. There has never been any scientific discovery that I'm aware of that disproves the existence of God. These two things are not mutually exclusive.
This whole mess started when church folk tried to dabble in science and came up with this whole ID malarkey. Then and only then did the science community got their panties in a bunch. It would be the same if a molecular biologist told the priest how he should interpret the bible and then added a new section to the bible to boot.
You may if you want to, but cherry picking science for your convenience is just plain hypocrisy.
Originally posted by Conspiriology
The whole mess didn't start with "Church folk" trying to dabble in anything ID has nothing to do with religion damn it and I wish you would quit saying it does. The ONLY reason Christians support it is it is the next best thing to creationism, we think if it was taught as an alternative to evolution it would be the best of the two where evolution is antithetical to everything the Bible teaches.
Look at this forum read the posts where Atheists quote scientists who have every intention of making God irrelevent.
- Con
Originally posted by melatonin
Con, do you really think this? That ID as is being pushed by the disco tute in the US is not theistic?
God is irrelevant to me, con. I don't need to make it irrelevant. It/He/She is. As relevant in my life as leprechauns. However, the believers in said gods are more relevant to my life than believers in leprechauns.
If god is relevant to you. That's cool. But don't hide it behind the facade of pseudoscience. All you need is faith dude, stick it on top of science. Many people can handle it. We won't shut up you and your scientists claiming how god is obvious from science, and we won't expect you to shut up scientists claiming how god is a delusion with a spadeful of science.
Each have the right to speak their minds.
Originally posted by schrodingers dog
Science has no agenda.
Scientists are supposed to be neutral and have no agenda.
Scientist accuse creationists of manipulating science for there agenda.
And though you and I may disagree on many things, I was conceding that there are many scientists who have betrayed their craft and drive their research through their own agenda. That in turn makes them hypocrites, as it is the precise accusation they level against creationists.
To conclude:
Science: good. Scientists, some good some bad.
God: good. Christians, some good some bad.
Originally posted by Conspiriology
Damn mel, why is this so difficult, Mel I am telling you the honest to gods truth I do NOT believe this to be some back door way to get creationism into science and I know ID'ers feel just as pissed off at Christians about that but it really isn't out fault. I think ID'ers are Scientists some may be pagan some Atheist some Christian but I know some of them personally at ASU and they ain't religious, NOT AT ALL. You know wraoth was not a Christian right? Yet you saw him arguing our side in evolution debates all the time. I knda know a little about what they believe but it is NOT about God like you or I think.
If that makes me look foolish,, well go ahead and laugh it is just what I think. I agree it was used by theists and that is why they are ticked off about it. (Dover) I doubt even those parents involved really knew what it was tho.
awe,, thats nice mel
So like sands in an hour glass these our the days of our lives.
I think we have every intention of speaking ours in public school science class rooms and won't shut up till we do
Sorry, that's what I hear
- Con
Originally posted by Conspiriology
Damn mel, why is this so difficult, Mel I am telling you the honest to gods truth I do NOT believe this to be some back door way to get creationism into science
I think we have every intention of speaking ours in public school science class rooms and won't shut up till we do
Sorry, that's what I hear
Originally posted by melatonin
I'm quite sure many IDers are not christian. But the vast majority are evangelical christians.
Well, you should tell these people at ASU, along with your theist friends, that they need to start doing some science rather than writing books for kids, making mockumentaries, and forcing anti-evolution approaches into schools.
Looks awfully like creationism in disguise. Being completely vacuous on the level of science, subverting the scientific process, relying on socio-political techniques, and a predominately evangelical par-tay.
ID is scientifically vacuous. We know that. You have nothing. Over 10 years, and nothing. The IDers can't even publish in their own journal.
Nothing. Nada. Zilch.
The people who pushed ID into the schools in Dover knew exactly what they were doing. They were just good old creationists, and there were very honest about it, until the DI told them to keep their Jebus yelping to themselves.
And that's why you will be fought tooth and nail. And you will lose, and you will lose continually and painfully. Even when faced with an activist Bush-appointed christian judge. The deception of the DI and most ID supporters is clear enough for all to see, not much more than a group of liars for jesus.
And you will lose, and you will lose continually and painfully.
Originally posted by Conspiriology
mmm I wouldn't know to tell you factually enough to argue the point. I see how it would attract them but many aspects of it are not biblical in my view.
I am not aware of this "mockumentary" Ill research it .
the evangelical aspect notwithstanding, this can't be said of evolutionist mel?
I think you are wrong there Mel but don't quote me just yet I need to check on it. Ill make a call and see if I can verify.
Another words, they are more interested now in debunking evolution than proving ID. That is all I know from what I gathered at ASU. This may be a retaliatory thing or who knows for what reason but I remember when all they talked about was ID talk and now they talk about evolution more but in reverse if you know what I mean.
I know they put up with Christians because they get a lot of money from us but seems like they always take it begrudgingly like they wish they didn't have to. I think they hold a grudge from dover towards us.
Those people on the school board were soccer moms and typical dads and moms that got a hold of something that looked like what they wanted taught in schools and I understand why but they didn't know they were messing things up making ID guilty by association to "jebus" but Jesus really has nothing to do with it.
Religion has nothing to do with it but if you insist that it does I can't change your mind. The only thing I think Atheists went all up in arms about is that it has religious implications but
SO "F"ing what!
Don't count your chickens Mel,
losing the battle is business as usual to us but it's the lord who decides who wins the war
Christians have a way of getting on with things and as many have tried to exterminate them,, they just seem to survive and flourish. One of the most difficult places to penetrate was China but look whats happening there.
Don't lump us all in with the liars, I think there was some hanky panky being done on both sides.
Oh and that Judge,,,
what a putts
- Con
Originally posted by melatonin
I thought he was a fair guy, and have sympathy for the crap response he got from the fools - the attempted assassinations on his integrity. But that's normal for those who have none.
Con, I can't help but lump you in. If it quacks like a duck etc. Your very words here show you have little interest in the science, it clearly appears to simply be about forcing your theistically motivated BS into school classrooms.
Originally posted by Conspiriology
This is why I am not a big proponent of any model, hell I don't even think it is that important to know whether we came from an amphibian or what ever. We are now what we are NOW and that is the only time I live in is NOW. Ill be dead before Science ever knows the answer to life.
So it isn't like we are pushing ID as OUR religion but it DOES represent more possibilities to consider the prospects of God we embrace.
Like I said it IS attractive because it doesn't shut God out out of hand merely because Science doesn't want to believe in that and that is whether they found evidence or not.
I am going to retire foir the evening as it is 2:00am but before I do Ill say I have enjoyed this dialogue with you Mel.
Take care and G/nite
- Con