Alright, That's Eternity. So, What's the Point?

This is a long thread to ask a very simple question: What’s the point? You could probably skip the rest and be on ruffly the same page...and maybe slightly less confused.

But what fun would that be?

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The afterlife...

...spooky, I know. It's a thought that we all ponder in some ego-masochistic corner of our brain.

I will be the first to admit that death, it freaks me out. In reality, I am pretty sure that death doesn't freak me out as much as the fear of eternity does. Let me explain:

Think about your position on our planet. Pan the camera back for a little while and see how quickly you --yes you; the little bag of meat with all those worries, aspirations, memories and relationships-- realize how quickly you are lost in the crowd. How quickly the crowd is lost to its surroundings. How quickly those surroundings are lost to their surroundings...

Soon the Earth is very, very small. The galaxy, in all of its amazing hugeness, is very, very, impossibly, very small.

Now, there you are, and you die.

That's it. You stop existing, but all that’s directly around you and all that is infinitely far away from you continues to...forever.

Feel small yet? This concept of eternity is freaky. However, beforelife is much harder to wrap my mind around.

Before I was...there was.

Ohh...chills up my spine every time.

So now onto my point --finally! We experience our universe only within the boundaries of our nagging mortality. It drags on us, collectively, like a dead limb.

We create amazingly complex belief systems and cling to them dearly; no matter how much we understand, we can't get past this 'death' thing. Even worse, we are curious. We keep finding ourselves on smaller and smaller scales of inclusion, and still, we cling to this hope that we are important.

I am me, god damn you universe! Don’t you know who Iam? I have to exist…death shouldn’t scare me…I have to exist…

It is almost an absurd mindset when the grandness of scale keeps becoming dwarfed by an ever larger, more grand...shinier...grandness of scale. But it is also a necessary mindset for [our level of] intelligence. It's hard to 'press on' if your entire species just can't see the point in it.

And that’s my point: What’s the point?

Create your own purpose.

This will transcend life and death.

We all have the power to shape reality.

Your question to the universe can easily be asked back to you.

ha... theres a good point in your non-point


Mod Note: One Line Post – Please Review This Link.


[edit on 17-6-2008 by elevatedone]

reply to post by SteveR


I never liked, no offense, this type of answer. On its surface it seems to be a self-affirming, you have a purpose if you think about it hard enough type of answer.

How does it transcend both life and death? With death being the absense of life; with life, in this situation, meaning conscious, self-knowing life; is this self created 'purpose' something else outside of these two?

I don't see how it could transcend life. If I am not here, I can make no purpose for myself and therefor this purpose, being wholly dependant on my 'existing', would no longer exist.

If I am dead, this purpose has now ceased to be. Once again, it existing requires that I exist.

I see what you are typing, but I can't see what you are saying.

edit to add: I am not saying that we shouldn't live, and live for whatever it's worth. I am just saying that we seem to have this fascination with our own death, and it rules us culturally.

We know we are important...things. But just to make sure of it, we try and leave our eternal mark. I think somewhere deep down, we fight with the fact that at the end of the day, we are memories.

[edit on 6/17/0808 by spines]

It is really hard for the human mind to comprehend such matters as eternity, where life began, and things of such magnitude.

i have asked myself the same question as the OP. honestly, given the choice, i would just prefer it to end when i die. i don't like the idea of living eternally and don't see the point. i am weary as it is.......... can't stand the thought of living forever.

given the choice to end it ALL when i die and choosing that alternative to eternity (being to end it ALL when i die), hell seems pointless to me and for that matter, so does heaven. =)

~peace

reply to post by justamomma


I find that to be a very intriguing view on this whole thing.

If you don't mind, could you elaborate a bit more?

Does the thought of not existing, in any shape, way or form for the rest of eternity really not disturb you? I get an uneasy sinking feeling if I try to imagine what that would really mean.

What about life is so weary, as to make the big sleep seem like the best possible outcome? I am not trying to pry, but I am relativley young (21), should I expect this as I age?

Does the anxiousness about death commonly evolve into a wearyness for life?

So many questions.

You know I have been thinking about this a lot lately....

I was fearing eternity myself.....

I was saying to myself, whats the point of all this?

Then I came to a conclusion......

Simply put....we are being recycled!

The point is the journey, that is it! Nothing more, nothing less. Its the ride....

Let me put it this way...


I believe we have all lived many many many (x infinity) lives. We have all been gods, we have all been ants, we have all been alien lifeforms, we have all been bacteria, we have all been simple cells............

We are lucky to be at a human stage because we have the ability to form this kind of thinking...

So....

After dieing, we become something more, its a step ladder of consciousness. After we peak, we make a decision to stay the form we have become, or be recycled, and ride the ride all over again......

Except this time, we don't remember we have already rode this ride....

Its to kill the boredom of living forever.....

We all live forever, its scary to some yes, just sit back and enjoy the ride!

Your answer is the JOURNEY.

Great thread!

Originally posted by spines
reply to post by SteveR

 

How does it transcend both life and death? With death being the absense of life; with life, in this situation, meaning conscious, self-knowing life; is this self created 'purpose' something else outside of these two?

I don't see how it could transcend life. If I am not here, I can make no purpose for myself and therefor this purpose, being wholly dependant on my 'existing', would no longer exist.

If I am dead, this purpose has now ceased to be. Once again, it existing requires that I exist.

That's assuming that death actually IS the abscense of life. Unless the physical realm is just another plane of existence and when this life is done and dusted our souls simply carry over to another existence. Life is infinite and as we keep coming back to get things right then this physical existence must hold substance to our life purpose in the grand scheme of things.
I believe everything exists in essence before materialistic form so it's somewhat easier for me to accept.

I was just reading this thread
www.abovetopsecret.com...
and one poster mentioned this:

Originally posted by Badge01
When 'God' created the Earth, or any world, he knew what the final outcome would be. Yet he started with primitive, sandal wearing guys who rode camels and drove Oxen and mules.

Why would 'He' create a relatively chaotic system, involving evolution, exploding stars creating heavy metals, microbes evolving into larger organisms, and imperfect, primitive humans and not start with modern man. Did he think Jesus would get hooked on Game shows? (j/k)

Why not create fully functional advanced civilizations on nearly every planet in every solar system.

This got me thinking that it's blaringly obvious that there must be some other greater force at work. Why else, indeed, would He - God - the all-knowing, almighty - have done these things?? If it was His idea to do this then naturally there would be some explanation, and if the answer doesn't lie in what fundamentalist science teaches us, then it's obviously elsewhere.
Your purpose originates elsewhere.

[edit on 17/6/08 by pretty_vacant]

I think the great mysteries of Life, Death, Afterlife, and Eternity are predicated on human misperception. We think that we're independent consciousnesses, somehow separated from one another, separated from Nature, and separated from God (if you believe in God). We think of ourselves as Here, while the rest of the Universe is Out There. And we can't — really can't — imagine a state of nonexistence. Our brains don't function in that way. When we try to envision a universe without us, we suddenly realize that it's a false vision, because there we are observing the universe without us.

In a nutshell, we humans can't let go of our sense of continuity. We can't imagine not existing, so we populate our imaginations with Life After Life, and Consciousness After Death. More than anything, we want to know that our thoughts survive in a linear fashion, because the human brain can't imagine anything else. That's how we make sense of the world, and it's how we try to make sense of Death and Beyond.

The thing is, we're not separate from the rest of the universe. We're a product of this Universe, and it's perfectly acceptable and correct to say that the Universe is at least as conscious as we are — we are living proof of this. Just so, we're not independent consciousnesses, we're all one consciousness, the consciousness of the Universe, as expressed through many, many knots of self-perception. We're the Universe pondering itself.

When we die, our perception dies — meaning that the senses die, all of our thoughts and memories die — but the consciousness continues, just as it always has. No, there's no human thought after Death, no linear continuity; rather, the essence of what you are, the essence of everybody and every thing, continues in its own vast, mysterious way, with countless knots of self-perception winking on and off every second in a never-ending cycle of Life & Death & Befuddlement.

What's the point of it? No point at all, from the primitive human perspective. An eternal collective consciousness doesn't fit in with our angry little attempts to rationalize our existence. "All Is One" just isn't compelling enough to enchant others to do our bidding — in order to control others, we must offer them Paradise for Good Behavior and Perdition for Bad Behavior, we must have an all-powerful God upstairs and a scary, scary Boogie-Man downstairs.

But let's not limit this to religion. Wherever you find humans — be they theist or atheist or otherwise — you find them fighting each other for power over others. We're all equally primitive, equally despicable, and equally helpless in an utterly pointless Universe.

[edit on 6/17/2008 by Doc Velocity]

I heard that Judaism doesn't believe in a life after death. Correct me if I'm wrong. If right though, you might seek out a Jewish forum and see how they deal with it.

There was a song in the 60's ... I think it was by The Bears (could be wrong there too, Mamas and Papas? not sure). Anyway, the song's first line was something like, "Is that all there is, my friend?" The title might be something like "Is That All There Is?"

Personally, I look forward to melting into The One Light.

[edit on 17-6-2008 by Trexter Ziam]

Excellent answers so far. No sense repeating them so I'll go on another tangent.

The universe is a school for Gods. The physical realm is for us baby Gods. You wouldn't give the keys to your car to your five-year-old. They have to learn and show they are ready for that responsibility.

The physical realm is where we choose how we to interact with other Gods. Some choose to enslave, others choose to empower, and the vast majority haven't really made a choice yet which is just fine since the universe has eternity to wait on them.

The thing about not being able to wrap our minds around non-existence is because in a sense we never not existed. Each and everyone of us was contained in potential within the infinite void. If you wasn't already a potentiality you wouldn't exist.

The point, for me, is expansion. Expansion of consciousness, thought patterns, and awareness. The universe is trying to teach us by example. It's like "Hey look at me, I'm expanding. I'm allowing all choices to manifest. See?"

And what's the ultimate point of Eternity? To create and maintain your own universe. I'll let you know when I'm finished with mine. Everyone will be invited to come check out the pad. BYOB

Originally posted by spines
reply to post by justamomma

 

I find that to be a very intriguing view on this whole thing.

If you don't mind, could you elaborate a bit more?

Does the thought of not existing, in any shape, way or form for the rest of eternity really not disturb you? I get an uneasy sinking feeling if I try to imagine what that would really mean.

What about life is so weary, as to make the big sleep seem like the best possible outcome? I am not trying to pry, but I am relativley young (21), should I expect this as I age?

Does the anxiousness about death commonly evolve into a wearyness for life?

So many questions.

don't mind elaborating in the least! =) the thought of not existing doesn't disturb me anymore than the thought of not existing before this life disturbs me.

in fact, i find it much more peaceful to believe that i would not exist after this life than to believe that i would exist for all eternity.

first off, the thought of eternity is so beyond my comprehension. forever doesn't need an "and ever" to follow it (ya know, some ppl say forever and ever and ever and ever). that is longer than time (as we know it)... ever and ever and ever and ever and infinity evers. what are you going to do for ALL that "time" which isn't really even "time"? i am adhd and my interests change often and i wonder how many times i can change my interests before i become ETERNALLY bored.

there is also the fact that no matter what religion you believe, good beings can always turn bad and bad beings are always in danger of punishment. i don't trust my heart enough to know that i will forever be a good 'being'.

point is, i was born w/ a finite mind, and although i tend to think there is an eternity, rationally, i feel i am better off being able to enjoy life for what it is now w/out expecting or wanting more.

i AM weary. i AM weary of trying to do what i know to be right despite how my emotions are reacting to any given situation. i am weary of raising two boys on my own (despite the fact that i have only been doing it for 2 1/2 yrs and still have, at the least, 17 more yrs to go). i am weary of others and myself. i am just flippin' tired and can stand the thought of living till i am 80 (or a few more) yrs old, but eternity? hell no!!

but i still tend to believe that there IS an eternity. just given the choice, to not exist seems much easier and more the path i would be content on following.

not sure if that answers your questions, but i hope it helps you to better understand where i am coming from.

Originally posted by spines

And that’s my point: What’s the point?

i don't think there is a point.

if you're not religious,what else could there be besides an eternal setting for stuff bumping into other stuff,gradually becoming more complex.

the thing that bugs me is why are we still at this,what appears to be,primitive level?if the multiverse theory or something similar is true,is there no escaping from a doomed one into another?if you can escape,why hasn't the entire multiverse become a .."giant brain" by now?obviously time is the key..given eternity,we should not exist as we are...logically,there can be no escape from one universe to the next..hmm anyway,i'll hafta think on that one.

suppose there are beings that are in effect immortal,and i'd be surprised to learn that there weren't.if i was one of those i'd make little bubbles of random stuff(like our universe) just to add to my cd collection that could be the answer to the fermi paradox..the dude who made this bubble liked led zeppelin and knew they were coming so he blew up the borg 10 million years ago...but if he knew they were coming he'd already have their cd's right? dang the paradox lives

on a personal level the idea of death used to bother me,a lot.but i've come to realise that if my assumptions about the nature of our surroundings are true then the purpose of existence is the same as the
'purpose of eternity"..we just are.it's like the buzz you get from meditating,like a white noise effect where everything is..bliss..just jumping from random thought to thought here now..this stuff is so cool to think about huh.the alternative to each individuals existence is to never have existed,in all eternity..what a bummer that would be.

regarding before and after our consciousness exists.basically,who cares?i think eternity is "real",so why would i even consider the state of nature without me in it?actually i have considered it but found it a pointless exercise.

great forum this new one

Originally posted by spines


And that’s my point: What’s the point?

I think the question, "what is the point" misses the point, or mis-asks it. That is like asking "what is the point of a daisy." The daisy has no point. It just is. Perhaps you are asking "what is the prupose" a slightly different question, and from whence perhaps religions flow. As for life and death and eternity... My view is that they about the opposite from what traditional religions view them.

I would argue that there is no death, or birth for that matter, and eternity is now. Let me clarify a little. First I think there is only EM (energy and matter.) And all the energy and matter is all part of one thing. Call it God, but don't get too hung up on the word. There is only EM (and no universe either. There is EM and where it is not, is nothing in the truest sense of the word.) I also think there is but one life. The life that is in you, me, the daisy, your favorite cat, an alien on a distant planet, is the same life. That life does not begin or end. It flows through us for a while, like electricity in a bulb, and when the bulb is done the electricity remains. So, eternity is now, eternity is alive.

This view cascades into some interesting issues: For example, many people argue a lot about when does "life begin" regarding abortion. I would argue that life is passed on, so the real question is not when does life begin in this form but when can we put an end to the form the life is in. This would also suggest the purpose of life is to be. And this little light bulb that we are, shining with life, will never be again. This also suggest there is no heaven or hell. When one light in a bank goes out, the electricity is still there, unchanged, that which made it bright still exists, just the the bulb is done.

So, there is only EM or God, there is one life, and being alive is eternity, and the point and purpose. Before and after this form we are but stardust, never to be the same again.

Interestingly, Christ, in the gnostic gospel of Thomas, makes the same argument, except he said we and God are one, which was sacrilege and why the Jews indeed conveniently had him executed. Then I think Paul/Saul either got it wrong or knew a lynching when he saw one and gave Christianity a totally different spin (and a wrong spin in my opinion.)

[edit on 18-6-2008 by Straight Razor]

[edit on 18-6-2008 by Straight Razor]

Originally posted by Penumbra
It is really hard for the human mind to comprehend such matters as eternity, where life began, and things of such magnitude.

Not really. What is difficult is the impossible answers religiosos have come up for such issues.

Rather than a large number of replies, I just addressed everyone individually within the same one. If you have time, I encourage you to read through it all and join the discussion. If you just want to see the response to your post, that is just as fine.

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reply to post by IMAdamnALIEN

Originally posted by IMAdamnALIEN
Simply put....we are being recycled!

[...]

I believe we have all lived many many many (x infinity) lives. We have all been gods, we have all been ants, we have all been alien lifeforms, we have all been bacteria, we have all been simple cells...

[...]

After dieing, we become something more, its a step ladder of consciousness. After we peak, we make a decision to stay the form we have become, or be recycled, and ride the ride all over again......

I have thought about this before. Although, while similar on the surface, our conclusions on it seem to stray from one another at a certain point.

I believe (well, as close to 'belief' as one can come to on something as unknowable as this) that the atoms that make up ourselves, have been, at one point, a part of everything else.

That is to say that, matter is not created nor destroyed; yet things still come into existence. Stars form heavy metals and the elements necessary for life. Those very same heavy metals and elements make up us and everything else that is; in a constant rotation of reused atoms.

That is just me though, and based on the issue of this thread, we already know that I have no idea what the hell is going on anyway.

Originally posted by IMAdamnALIEN
Your answer is the JOURNEY.

Amen to that brother.

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reply to post by pretty_vacant

Originally posted by pretty_vacant
That's assuming that death actually IS the abscense of life. Unless the physical realm is just another plane of existence and when this life is done and dusted our souls simply carry over to another existence.

But that leads into another problem, for me. It is one I find myself wrestling with in terms of reincarnation as well:

When I move on, either as a new physical being on this plane of existence or move to a new plane or even enter back to another plane from which I will reincarnate again...am I still me?

Will the 'me' of my self-awareness on this plane, or in this life, or whatever...will that 'me' remain the same? Having no knowledge of myself as I would be existing on another plane, or as I would be as a soul without a body is a big speed bump.

If either theory is correct, then that would suggest that the 'real' me, or the 'me' I am supposed to be working towards, is different than the me of right now. Would I still know of all my thoughts, emotions and memory? That's all that makes up who I am when you get down to it. If that changes after death, then what is the point?

Oh damnit! We're back to this question again.

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reply to post by Doc Velocity

Originally posted by Doc Velocity
I think the great mysteries of Life, Death, Afterlife, and Eternity are predicated on human misperception.

[...]

We're all equally primitive, equally despicable, and equally helpless in an utterly pointless Universe.

I couldn't have said it better myself. I agree on all but one part: Your literal representation of inclusion.

That used to be my mindset exactly, actually. However, I have a harder and harder time with saying that the universe ponders itself. We are all part of the vastness that is the universe. It is a vastness that, much like our continuity, we can't seem to separate ourselves from it. Once we got our minds around how big our universe was starting to become...we instantly took one hand off of immortal faith and used it to grasp tightly at universal inclusion; collectivity.

We only grab with one hand because, somewhere deep down, we know that this idea leaves us in the same situation as before. We call it a step forward in understanding; we have proof; they only have faith. It is, however, an idea taught almost directly by some religions and alluded to by the rest.

First, there was religion. Man admired his gods in the sky before him. He looked up and he could see his gods. Every night he wondered in awe at the source of all that is.

Then, there was science. Man admired the physical world around him. He learned the nature of the gods. He studied their life and their death; he named them 'the stars'. Every night he wondered in awe at the source of all that is.

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reply to post by justamomma

Originally posted by justamomma
not sure if that answers your questions, but i hope it helps you to better understand where i am coming from.

You did a great job answering my questions. Thank you.

The way you put it...it's almost like taking a really good nap. Everything else is still going on; you’re just not a part of it anymore.

I still can't bring myself to be comfortable with no longer existing, but more power to you.

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reply to post by aylyan


Sorry I don't have much more to say. A lot of it is addressed in replies to other posts, but like I said to justamomma, more power to you for figuring out something that works for you.

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reply to post by Straight Razor

Originally posted by Straight Razor
I think the question, "what is the point" misses the point, or mis-asks it. That is like asking "what is the point of a daisy." The daisy has no point. It just is.

Hmm, maybe. But I don't think so. Although you have it correct when you say that it is exactly like asking, "what is the point of a daisy." I suppose I am attempting to reconcile that fact: We matter as much as a daisy. For all of our civilization, art and conflict, we matter no more then a daisy, or the ant you stepped on without even knowing it was there.

Originally posted by Straight Razor
I would argue that there is no death, or birth for that matter, and eternity is now. Let me clarify a little. First I think there is only EM (energy and matter.) And all the energy and matter is all part of one thing. Call it God, but don't get too hung up on the word.

[...]

That life does not begin or end. It flows through us for a while, like electricity in a bulb, and when the bulb is done the electricity remains. So, eternity is now, eternity is alive.

On the surface different, but altogether the same general idea. When the bulb goes dead, does the electricity remember its old expression?

Originally posted by Straight Razor
When one light in a bank goes out, the electricity is still there, unchanged, that which made it bright still exists, just the the bulb is done.

And that is fine and good, but, like every other explanation, it leaves me with the same problem. If the 'me' is going to sputter out and fade, yet that what made me remains...what good is that for me?

More power to the main grid, but at the loss of everything that makes me into: 'me'?

I've got blisters on me...brain!

reply to post by spines


Mmmm i can see what you're getting at.. You're saying if you reincarnate again and again and each time your memories, beliefs and personality change, then what's the point in even going back time and time again??

All i can say is that, IMO, our conciousness or awareness in this existence is different from the one we would experience in, say, a non-physical plane of existence. I believe we'd have some recollection of past lives etc but the individual character traits of each soul would stay similar in each physical life, overall.

The way i see it is the that purpose of life in the physical sense is to experience what the physical world has to offer but also with each life lived to become closer to God or the Creator or whatever you want to call Him/it (the concept of nirvana in Buddhist belief, or Moksha in Hindu belief, the drop of water into the ocean), through closing the gap of difference in conciousness between the two planes (physical and non-physical) - ie. becoming more spiritually aware. I think though as we do this we tend to lose more individuality - hence once we reach nirvana (and we become the drop of water into the ocean) we are one with God (or whoever).

I think, to grasp this sort of ideology you have to look past the confines and mortality of physical ideals. That is, stop thinking of the purpose of our existence as predominantly in the physical realm and instead consider the possibility that this plane is just a bonus to aid our spiritual evolution...

If life is infinite then i don't believe that we just cease to exist at any point in time.

So do you get my drift??

If you want to know what your purpose is in the physical realm i would say, in short, it's to help other people, spread genuine love around, meditate and broaden your horizons and inspire other people to do all of this as well. And by doing all of this, it brings us closer to the true nature of God (or who/ whatever).
And if you want to know why we should be closer to God/ nirvana/ whoever, i believe there are incomprehensible joys to come out of it...

This of course is wholly MY OPINION. I'm not trying to get you to do anything. Just trying to share some of my insight.

Any questions, feel free to ask

[edit on 18/6/08 by pretty_vacant]

[edit on 19/6/08 by pretty_vacant]

As the universe became aware of itself, it created new and different ways of perceiving itself. The body is just a vehicle for consciousness. The goal: experience.

The idea is to limit ourselves so that we can find new and creative ways of doing things. Moving around, for instance is something that should be effortless. However, the fact that we are limited or imperfect led us to find new ways to move about such as crawling, walking, cars, bikes, and planes.

Through our imperfections we become more perfect. God/the universe only knows that which it experienced. You might imagine how simple and boring things were in the beginning.

Sure this world might be in the pits right now, but your best experience is only as good as your worst. All must be experienced to be appreciated.

Originally posted by spines

more power to you for figuring out something that works for you.

yep that's why we're all on this forum i suppose,and its motivated me to prove and thereby legitimise to myself the notion of a cyclical universe.best of luck on your journey mate,great thread.