Employers Blood Testing To Stop Smokers

Just a personal note as I have not read the entire post.

A couple of months ago the new local CAN AM ball team was advertising for staff (kitchen, ushers, etc, etc). They made a point at the end of every job discription that they there taking applications from NON SMOKERS ONLY.

As a smoker, I wondered why there is a problem with this? The stadium is strictly non smoking, as are all public venues here in Ottawa, so nobody is going to be smoking while they work anyway, so why would they want non smokers only?

Bugs me a little bit, but, since they were hiring mostly kids for the jobs, I guess it's ok, as I don't think anyone should smoke, especially kids.

I've tried to quit, I really really have...but no luck so far.

Originally posted by Team Locke

Not to sound argumentive...but... The other side of the coin:

Smokers stop working at least every hour to go outside and smoke which is about a 10 minute ordeal. That's lost production in the workplace. The non smokers have to take up the slack for them.

I'm really anti-smoking. When a person lights up everyone around him becomes a smoker. What of non-smoker rights?

Now...
Obese people aren't even in the same catagory... unless you are having to sit next to them on a plane. In that case your rights are being violated by the person invading your personal space.


Again, not posting to be argumentive..just showing the other side of the coin.

where in the world are you guys working where the smokers can go out every hours to a smoke break.....

this is how it works in my place....

you have your favored, and your not so favored employees....now, the favored ones can have their family stop by and have nice long chats with them, they can get a half a dozen personal phone calls a day, they can take 20 trips in a day's time to the bathroom or drinking fountain, they can spend about a half an hour everyday standing around a table thinking about what they want to order for breakfast and lunch, or....they can just stand there and look dumb as you do your work and theirs....
I'm not one of the favored ones.....if I were to get into the habit of sneaking off, for any reason.......wash the ink off my hands, go to the bathroom, whatever, they'd be on my arse...

the description of my workplace might sound a little extreme, but I've got a feeling that much of the same thing happens in yours....some of your co-workers might spend their time with personal phone calls, playing games online or texting their friends, you might have a few wanderers there, a few severely dehydrated people, a few with really bad bladder problems, whatever....
so, just out of curiousity, since you are claiming that me, since I am a smokers is taking all of these breaks....(lol!!!.....I'd wouldn't have a job!)....
why is taking that five minute smoking break any worse than all the other ways employess have found to waste their boss's money?

by the way, they can test me for nicotine at my job when they also test them all for hair dyes and perms.....I'll even bring in copies of some of the research on both just so they can see that I am right...the hair dyes and perms are just as dangerous if not more.
but then the companies that make them have friends in washington....friends they helped put in washington, so well...that will never happen, will it?

smokings on its way out???

Damnit, I just started smoking a year ago!


Anyways, i'm all for the right to do what you wish with your body. And this crap this employer is pulling is insane.

Thanks for bringing this into the light OP

reply to post by Enthralled Fan

There are thousands of people just like you who can fill your shoes. Nobody is a special employee anymore for going above and beyond the call of duty.

That's completely up to you, or as I should say, the people. I drive a truck for a living, a job that most people either can't or won't do. I smoke (obviously) and I will continue to smoke as long as I drive and I want to smoke. Period. And I make that policy known to everyone I drive for.

I just ran a special hotshot overnight run for my boss because he had his back up against a wall. I did it in a loaner truck (mine blew a head gasket), with no AC, had to get an air-leak fixed before I could start, and wound up being a witness to a fatality accident. 24 hours without sleep and without food (my choice, had I eaten, I would not have made it). The load was already behind schedule when I took it, and after all that, I was one hour late on delivery.

When I walked in this morning, I received a hearty "thank you". More importantly, whenever I need something, like a day off or a special load, I tend to get it. I go beyond the call of duty because I get back. He knows that. And I have the best job I have ever had. If everyone and his brother could do my job, and people stopped doing favors for favors, it would run just like the typical nine-to-fiver jobs.

Don't blame the shepherds, blame yourselves for being sheep.

reply to post by RedGolem

However, the way I am seeing this is a time is coming that tobacco use will become illeagle.

There's a line in my signature that everyone needs to read. "If one of us are chained, none of us are free." The funny thing about freedom is that you don't get more of it by denying it to others; you get less. The only wat to get more freedom is to give it to everyone else. We seem to have forgotten that. I imagine we'll re-discover the concept after a few decades of slavery.

reply to post by Team Locke

Smokers stop working at least every hour to go outside and smoke which is about a 10 minute ordeal. That's lost production in the workplace. The non smokers have to take up the slack for them.

I'm really anti-smoking. When a person lights up everyone around him becomes a smoker. What of non-smoker rights?

Now...
Obese people aren't even in the same catagory... unless you are having to sit next to them on a plane. In that case your rights are being violated by the person invading your personal space.

Smokers have to stop working because of already-established policies against smoking in the building. I smoke while I drive, and in the past have smoked while I worked in an office environment. My productivity was always higher than most of the non-smokers. You are using some seriously flawed logic to assert that smokers are a drain when it was people like you who made them a drain.

You're a smoker because someone around you smokes? So you drive a Hummer every time one passes by you? Or maybe you drive a diesel when you pass a big truck on the road? Let's take that logic farther: do you stand outside the GNC store and claim you're eating healthy? Sorry, bub, you make your own choices in life and you live on a planet with a few billion other people. Either get used to it, or move to a deserted island.

Non-smoker rights? Please! You 'own' every movie theater, almost every restaurant, every department store, and practically every building in the USA! Get real.

Obese people aren't in the same category because they are just now being targeted. They will be soon, and if that doesn't get you, the next bane of humanity will. You're next in line, whether you believe it or not.

reply to post by Enthralled Fan

Looks to me like your links are from anti-smoking sites. Isn't that a bit biased?

Look, I realize you're playing devil's advocate here, but really, aren't there enough 'devils' already on this subject? Beware of falling into the trap of believing the propaganda that is being portrayed as the basis for anti-smoking campaigns. The pundits who put this stuff out are very good at what they do, and they'll have you brainwashed into believing that people are dropping dead on the street because an evil smoker passed within 100 yards of them. Cigarettes are not healthy; I have never said they were, nor have I ever heard anyone else claim that. But they are not the end of civilization either.

reply to post by ZindoDoone

Being a truck driver, I have to piss in a bottle at least once a month to placate the insurance and government wonks. I have a sneaking suspicion that they test for a whole hell of alot more than just what they tell us!!

I get the same thing; it's a Federal mandate (as you already know, but others here don't). I suggest you keep the paperwork on those tests, like I do. One bad test, even if it's a laboratory mixup, can end more than a job. It can end a career.

If that ever happens, I want all the paperwork so I can just sit back and run the company that screwed up because it belongs to me. I'm tired of driving.

reply to post by groingrinder

Nobody wanted to speak out when they were only blood testing for pot smokers. Now that the cigarette smokers are being attacked, things are differently. Well I will tell you all what you told me when it was me being treated unfairly for smoking marijuana at home. Suck it up and live with it. You can always get another job or quit smoking!!

Someone actually did support you. Me. I guess my voice just got drowned out in the roar. Sorry, I was yelling as hard as I could.

I sympathize with you, I really do. But while you were unfairly targeted, what will it help to enjoy others being unfairly targeted? Perhaps if we work together, rather than letting the PTB split us up this way, we can all be free again.

TheRedneck

reply to post by TheRedneck


I think I'm in love...


but seriously - I agreed with every word of your post - we should all take a page outta that book... - it seems like everyone wants to jump on the bandwagon of blame - I used to want to "change the world" but finally realized I had to face my own fckd up attitudes towards the choices I make...and accept responsibility for them....kudos - brilliant post!

Originally posted by TheRedneck

Looks to me like your links are from anti-smoking sites. Isn't that a bit biased?

I did not intentionally pull up an anti-smoking site. I got the links from "Ask about.com".

Since you are a smoker, I wonder when the last time was that you actually read a pack of cigarettes before opening them up to smoke. One does not need to look at an anti-smoking site to get a warning about cigarettes. The Surgeon General's warning is right on the side of a pack.

"Smoking Causes Lung Cancer, Heart Disease, Emphysema, And may complicate Pregnancy."

So, to answer your question, no, I don't think I was being biased with the links I posted. Even the manufacturers of cigarettes admit right on the side of thier packages how dangerous they are.

Look, I realize you're playing devil's advocate here, but really, aren't there enough 'devils' already on this subject? Beware of falling into the trap of believing the propaganda that is being portrayed as the basis for anti-smoking campaigns.

So Philip Morris is lying during this story about them dated from 2007?

www.cbc.ca...

Thirty-five years after the Surgeon General's warning, in October 1999, the world's largest tobacco company, Philip Morris, acknowledged that tobacco smoking causes lung cancer, emphysema and heart disease, and that tobacco smoking is addictive. Philip Morris did it in the modern way, on the Internet.

Don't believe it? How about what Philip Morris says themselves at their own site?

philipmorrisusa.com...

PM USA agrees with the overwhelming medical and scientific
consensus that cigarette smoking causes lung cancer, heart disease, emphysema and other serious diseases in smokers. Smokers are far more likely to develop serious diseases, like lung cancer, than non-smokers. There is no safe cigarette. Learn more.

Here is what Philip Morris says about 2nd hand smoke.

Public health officials have concluded that secondhand smoke from cigarettes causes disease, including lung cancer and heart disease, in non-smoking adults, as well as causes conditions in children such as asthma, respiratory infections, cough, wheeze, otitis media (middle ear infection) and Sudden Infant Death Syndrome. Learn more.

The pundits who put this stuff out are very good at what they do, and they'll have you brainwashed into believing that people are dropping dead on the street because an evil smoker passed within 100 yards of them. Cigarettes are not healthy; I have never said they were, nor have I ever heard anyone else claim that. But they are not the end of civilization either.

Please visit the link to the Philip Morris site to get other information about the problems caused by cigarettes.

Is Philip Morris their own pundit?

No, smoking is not the immediate end of the world, but over time with enough exposure to cigarettes, they can kill you or innocent bystanders.
Hence the non-smoking rules at places like Golden Corral.

Once again, this is coming from a smoker. I understand your concern about losing the freedom to smoke as you see fit, but, yes, they are very dangerous. Not just a little bit, like you make it sound.

gee....it seems everyone is so concerned about how other's people's habits are effecting their pocketbooks. that's my observation of the posts here....

so, let's just strip everyone's freedoms down, so we don't have to pay for the side effects of those liberties...right?

our whole economic system has gotten to be anti-american. it forces people into dependency, and well, dependency has always, will always equal servitude. you work for me!!! you are my slave, if I say you can't smoke, have to eat less, need to lay off the perms and hair dyes, should be in a 2 hour excercise program three days a week after your work hours, need to become a vegetarian, need to quit drinking the alchohol, lay off the perfumes, give up your cat, your dog, or whatever.....well, you should just bow gracefully and accept it!
and then, after you accept this, you can still go and beg from the government for the rest of the money you need to actually be able to live and they can strip more of your rights, your human dignity from you!

the american dream has been lost! and the only way to restore it is to some how make it so that the average american can pay their rent, the medical bills, their food bills, their energy bills, ect....without government or big insurance industry's help. it's the money that gives others the right to come into your life and begin telling you how to live it. cut that money flow, and there is freedom.

Originally posted by Enthralled Fan

Once again, this is coming from a smoker. I understand your concern about losing the freedom to smoke as you see fit, but, yes, they are very dangerous. Not just a little bit, like you make it sound.

second hand smoke isn't anymore dangerous than a regular schedule of swimming in an indoor pool, an nice evening spent around a campfire, living in a busy city, splashing your favorite perfume on every day and using those lovely air fresheners, cleaning your home with your favorite household cleaners (unless of course, you are like me and are highly allergic to such things and using baking soda for most of your cleaning), eating our overprocessed, chemical filled food or drinking our water.
it is far less dangerous than working in such place as kodak, machine shops, printshops, and the like.

Originally posted by dawnstar

second hand smoke isn't anymore dangerous than a regular schedule of swimming in an indoor pool, an nice evening spent around a campfire, living in a busy city, splashing your favorite perfume on every day and using those lovely air fresheners, cleaning your home with your favorite household cleaners (unless of course, you are like me and are highly allergic to such things and using baking soda for most of your cleaning), eating our overprocessed, chemical filled food or drinking our water.
it is far less dangerous than working in such place as kodak, machine shops, printshops, and the like.

Did you bother reading the link from Philip Morris, the cigarette manufacturer? It indicates other than what you just said above.

You have supplied your opinion only in what you stated. We are talking about cigarettes here, not household cleaners, processed foods and perfume. We are not talking about working at kodak, a machine shop or a printshop. We are discussing cigarettes, and how employers are testing for usage with blood tests, and why they are doing it. Not a night around a campfire.

Nice try at trying to derail the thread with other dangerous things people confront everyday.

Why don't you start a thread about the dangers of processed foods or perfume?

reply to post by Enthralled Fan


Why are you trying so hard to derail this thread?

Can you not see that you are towing the Party line just a little too hard?

Why do you continue to ignore the obvious similiarities between Petroleum/chemical pollution in cities and second-hand smoke?
A six-cylinder car produces more carcinogens and C02 in 12 hours driving time than a smoker ever will should that smoker smoke 2 packs a day for 40 years... (Google "tobacco smoke equivalency chart")

and sitting near a campfire - which produces vast amounts of deadly smoke and evil C02, 120 lbs of hard wood produces the same amount of smoke as a lifetime of smoking... ever been near a bonfire?

So after you ban smoking, what do you plan on banning next?
Seriously, what do you think should be the next thing to go?

----------------------------------------------------
Edite: On a Side note, Some restauraunts and cafes in Asmsterdam and other liberal Euroencities have begun ptting sign on their doors saying

"This is a Smoking Establishment. Non-smokers don't Complain, you have been notified as per the local Bylaws"

"Achtung! Non-Smokers: Smoking is Allowed. Do Not Bother the other Patrons as you will be asked to leave"

"Smoking Here"

"This Coffeeshop Allows Smoking, You have been Warned"

etc, etc, The point is, People everywhere are starting to resist the Nazi-Style oppression. Nazis tried to ban smoking... they even had ALL of the laws we do now in most of North America.



[edit on 19-6-2008 by doctormcauley]

reply to post by Enthralled Fan


I work in a printshop, you're talking about employers testing for nicotine....
seems rather relevant to me...
what, are you saying that the employer can kill who with the toxins he's demanding that you work with, but then, he has the right to dictate what you do in your personal time, because he doesn't want you killing yourself?

as far as kodak goes.....

Eastman Kodak (Rochester)

Kodak is New York's number one manufacturing polluter and one of the nation's top emitters of cancer-causing chemicals. In 2,000 - Kodak released over 4.2 million pounds of chemicals to the air, released over 2 million pounds of cancer-causing chemicals to the air, and over 680,000 pounds of chemicals to the water. Between 1987-2000, zip code 14652 in Rochester led the nation in releases of cancer-causing chemicals, most of which came directly from Kodak. According to the DOH, women living near Kodak Park had approximately an 80% greater risk of developing pancreatic cancer; this number jumps to 96% if the women have lived in the area for over 20 years. Residents report a higher than normal rate of childhood brain and spinal cord cancers, and 21 schools are located within three miles of the Kodak facility. Kodak has been fined millions of dollars for chemical spills, explosions, and illegally operating hazardous waste incinerators. In addition, there are a number of hazardous waste sites in need of cleanup at Kodak Park.

Contact: Ramona Miller, Kandid Coalition, 585-486-4225

www.cectoxic.org...

just think what's the effects are to the people who work there. kodak, by the way is the only company in NY probably who will never, ever, be regulated by the newest smoking ban in the state....you think that shs is dangerous, try having a bunch of smokers outside flicking their butts all over the place...they'd blow rochester off the map!

as far as the machine shops, well......they go to work everyday, grind, drill, cut various metals, including lead...and they bring home all that metallic dust and shavings, which then their babies gather up as they crawl on the floor. all across the country, workers are going to work (doing real work, producing real products that are sold here and across the world, not just pushing a bunch of folders across the desk) and they are coming into contact with chemicals that are much more dangerous than the little wisp of smoke that is flowing from the end of a cigarette....
in my opinion, no, the employers in these companies don't have the right to tell their employees that they cannot smoke in their free time, in their own homes. the employers insist on using these dangerous chemicals when many times, there is cheaper, although more expensive alternatives but then that would cost more money, wouldn't it? if the shs smoke is killing you, then these employers are also killing their employees. and, if you are buying their products....you are indirectly killing them also! do you have an old fashioned camera that you like to use....congratulations, you've just contributed to some kid getting brain cancer in rochester...you should feel proud of yourself...so proud that you can go about and gripe at every smoker you see about how their smoke is killing you!

derailing the thread my eye!!! let's take an objective look at the risk those cigarettes are posing to the "innocent" victim when compared to all the other crap that we are inaudated with on a daily basis.

?????fail the words ...
I waited another 2 pages of dribbel ..but not one person can see this ..
tHE THREAD TOPIC IS MISSLEADING AND IRRELEVANT ...
Its not about smoking at all . Are you really all that blind to see ??
It has F%$& all to do with smoking or your health or passive smoking or other BS you get told .

ITS SIMPLY ABOUT CONTROLL


This worldwide anti smoking BS is only a test to feel the waters ...

Its not only the US
its a World wide movement ..
Power is beeing shown to the mob ...YOU

and what do u do ..you discuss heath issues ..

I am speechless ... its in plain side yet you miss the point completely ..all of you .
You go and discuss the health impications of smoking, not smoking passive smoke etc etc
WHEN REALLY YOU AFRE BEEING ENSLAVED ...MADE INTO MINDLESS CATTLE WITHOUT A SHRED OF FREE WILL
And as with every evil its not forced ....the masses will ask for it ..total enslavment will be brought to you on your wish ..you are made so scrared of everything ..you will ask for enslavment ...More you will pay for it ...fight child rape get your kid chipped ...beat the supermarket quees get chipped and pay instantly . Let me listen to your TV habbits I will record for you all that you like ...

This is just the tip of the iceberg ..


Next you are told to hop to work on one leg ...AND YOU KNOW WHAT !??

YOU WILL because you are mostly all conditioned fools!





[edit on 19-6-2008 by terte]

control, reallly???
you sure??
the corporate world has been given basically a free pass to throw thier petro-based toxic waste into whatever products that they can come up with that we will buy....and well, naturally we seem to getting more and more unhealthy as a result...
and low and behold!!! this is beginning to cost alot of money, all these sick people running to the doctor, buying $100 pills to help the restore their bone density or keep their blood pressure down, or whatever....add to that, our healthsystem is based on a kind of shared cost system, where you help me pay for my health bills and I will help you when you get sick sort of thing, well.....the cost of the healthcare is making people a little antsy...why should I have to help pay for this other guys stupid health habits...
well, what if it isn't the guys stupid health habits that are making him, and you sick, what if it's the stupid habits of greedy manufacturers, willing to throw crap into the products that they know danged well will make you sick? time for a few scapegoats I think, lest the public actually sit down and take the time to look closely at the way things are...and figure out, they health was the cost for all these neat cheap products!

by the way, we should all turn off our computers now, the plastic heats up the longer they are on, and when plastic heats up, ya know what happens? it lets loose a whole mess of toxic substances that might harm you!!
heck they probably pose about the same risk as the smoke flowing from the guys cigarette also!



[edit on 19-6-2008 by dawnstar]

Yes iam fairly sure its about controll

And yes you are absolutely right with everything you write ..I cannot aggree more ..
Its a farse ...and smoking itself is not the reasoning behind it
I stand by my conclusion its all about controll...


You eat breath and are surrounded every day by toxic rubbish ...
SO what can we do ...probably naught BUT
As a start I recoment looking around for TOXIC free products ..at the very least stop using personal hygiene products full of cancer ....and EAT fresh food stop using the supermarket ..
Thats a start ..i done it and its not that hard ...Of course it wont fix all beacsue you are stll left with the toxic surrounding you life in and work in ..But in your personal life you CAN do some things

reply to post by terte


ahh...yes, but we've got a whole economic system now that is based on feeding the public toxic products.....
if the people actually figure that one out, and get angry enough, that would definately be enough to collaspe their precious system...
it might be about the preserving the control they have on the masses....but i don't think it's about grasping for more control. they are just too darned busy trying to retain the control that they have. and well, having a bunch of people able to prove that these companies knowingly and willingly threw a bunch of dangerous crap into the marketplace and this is why they are debilitated and sick in a court of law would be very, very damaging to their precious stock market now, wouldn't it?

Yes my friend it surely would do harm if people would stand up ..
BUT you seem to forget this is nothing new
They are poising us for decades ...NOONE will ever prove anything ..becasue the court you will be using is not a free court ..
This is a fashist cooperate world you and me life in and one side does not survive without the other ...and judges know that too they know who pays and what their JOB is ..
You fail to acknolegde that the fight for free and just society has been lost at least a hundred years ago ..
You life, brathe and work in a fashist place and as such NOTHING copperations do will ever be changed or punished or scrutenised ..maybe little fish here and there but it will NOT change the status quo .
They killed poisend or mamed many thousands of people in the 70 Nothing happend
they killed millions in the 80 nothing happend ..

You count on some good within he systenm that is not there ..never has been ..only in movies ...this as well for a reason ..people need hope ..but that another story about Hollywood and the makebelieve magic world and its agenda ..

So although i wish you was right I know you are not ..
Iam too old ..I seen this all long ahead ..everything you eat and drink is poison ..

and nothing, NO court on this planet will ever do anything about it ..
You seem to forget who i s paying in this cooperate world ...

one example ....for 10 years plus the sweetner now in every soda was illegal because its was proven to be carcenogentic ...now its in EVERYTHING AND I MEAN EVERYTHING AND KIDS ARE ENCOURAGED TO USE IT BECAUSE ALL KIDS ARE FAT AND NEED TO REDUCE WEIGHT ..OF COURSE VERY SOON THEY ARE ALL DEAD

20 YEARS THE CANCER RATE WILL BE GIGANTIC ..THAT I PROMISSE YOU

WE ARE BEEING KILED AND NOTHING IS GONNA STOP IT ..

STILL THIS ...IS NOTHING ELSE BUT CONTROLL

IN FUTURE THERE WILL BE MORE AND LOOK THE GOV. IS ONLY TELLING US TO STOP SMOKING BECAUSE ITS BAD FOR YOU and KILLS ...SO IN FUTURE WHATEVER THEY COME WITH MUST BE OK BECAUSE THEY ONLY ARE LOOKING AFTER US ARENT THEY ??

CAn you please tell me you see this ...it really isnt that hard ..you cannot force people you need to make them want it ..
you see they might be evil but they are not stupid ..they know the masses and they learned war and brute force does not enslave people it has never worked ...so cunning is needed
people are enslaved by fear ...create fear and provide ´solutions´
Its excatly how I would do it ..




[edit on 19-6-2008 by terte]

Originally posted by Enthralled Fan

You have supplied your opinion only in what you stated. We are talking about cigarettes here, not household cleaners, processed foods and perfume. We are not talking about working at kodak, a machine shop or a printshop. We are discussing cigarettes, and how employers are testing for usage with blood tests, and why they are doing it. Not a night around a campfire.

Nice try at trying to derail the thread with other dangerous things people confront everyday.

Well, I thought we were discussing the invasion of privacy of smoking employees by employer.

This employer is using smoking as an excuse to take away one of your fundamental human rights.

reply to post by Enthralled Fan

I did not intentionally pull up an anti-smoking site.

You didn't have to. The anti-smoking campaign over the last few decades has been very thorough.It started with a group of activists, who, I can only assume, had some personal gripe with either smokers in general or the tobacco industry. With a good bit of lobbying, they scored a major coup: they were able to convince the reigning surgeon general that cigarettes were 'bad'. (I remember this happening; I did not read it in some report, I lived through it.)

Wow, what a revelation! I remember clearly the popular responses at the time. They were along the line of 'Well, duh!'. No one I have ever known has ever said to me that smoking was healthy - ever! Had they done so, I would have laughed in their face. I knew it was not a habit that would improve my health. I did not need some warning on the pack to know this.

So the Surgeon General got it passed that all cigarettes were to carry a warning label. No problem. Along with every other smoker, I ignored them. So the lobbyists, apparently upset that this little warning label wasn't enough, started to get bolder.

They demanded that domestic airlines of less than two hours duration be required to be smoke-free, allegedly due to the fact that they were forced to sit in an enclosed space without enough air circulation to stop them from having to breath the noxious fumes being produced. Of course, we now know that airlines have a more effective air recirculation system than any regular building on the ground, but that knowledge wasn't mentioned at the time of the campaign. The anti-smokers won. Smokers grumbled, but, really, most people can go a couple hours without their smoke, so no big deal.

About the same time, they began lobbying for public (governmental) buildings to become smoke free. The first target was state buildings in a few of the more 'enlightened' states. This campaign finally began to succedd, and after a short time, the federal government fell into line as well. this spread to include the states that were originally holdouts, until finally, any government building in the United States was off-limits to the evil cigarette.

They also kept pressure on their original success point, the airlines, until all domestic flights of any length were deemed non-smoking. Then came the assault on restaurants. State laws were passed requiring restaurants to have special sections designated as non-smoking. No problem there for the smokers, as we could still smoke elsewhere. Somewhere along the line, the situation reversed, and the smokers had the designated areas, It was a covert change, and one that was based on public 'awareness' of the 'dangers of smoking'. Eventually, this begat the 'enlightened' restaurants who deemed that they would not even have a non-smoking section. My response was to boycott them, but others did not go along in this area, so it did no good.

Now we have governmental involvement again entering the fray to force those restaurants and now bars and nightclubs to remove smoking-allowed areas. Some states have laws against smoking in any building that grants public access, regardless of who owns it or their wishes. Smokers are forced to huddle in the weather outside the buildings, regardless of the weather or health concerns, all in the name of fighting that demonic second-hand smoke.

Now we have corporations coming into the arena, as in this report. Government alone apparently cannot wipe smokers off the face of the planet, so new guns are being tried out.

This is based on skewed and biased tests, most of which use smoke poured into lab mice cages in such a huge concentration that you cannot see the mice through it. This is done until the mice develop a medical problem, then an unproven formula is used to determine the 'safe' level of smoke inhalation. Even that is no longer good enough, for those tests themselves cannot substantiate the amount of hysteria present in society. Now, statistical analysis is used to determine 'scientifically' that smoking is hazardous even in minuscule amounts. The problem with these statistical tests is that there is no control group, no thought given to other contributing factors of lifestyle, and no peer review. Tests were commissioned by the government for the explicit purpose of proving the dangerous effects of smoking, rather than the proper attempts to determine if smoke was hazardous. The result was in the initial proposal, so of course it had to be in the results.

I heard a few years back on the radio an interview with a group of scientists in Europe, who claimed to have completed the largest, most thorough statistical analysis ever done on the effects of smoking.It covered several decades of questionaires on a group of individuals, smokers, non-smokers, and those who lived around smokers. All aspects of lifestyle were included. The result was that while there was a small increase in health risk among smokers, there were also other areas of their lifestyle that were common and had not been studied. It also found no correlation between exposure to limited amounts of second-hand smoke and health risks, other than a statistically-insignificant decrease in the amount of health problems among those with second-hand smoke exposure. The researcher stated that they did not include the small deviation in this respect due to fear of ridicule and since it was so small.

I have tried desperately to find information on this study since then, but to no avail. The story quickly dropped off the news front. I guess someone didn't like the results. I say it's time to demand, once and for all, for all information to be accurately and completely exposed to the public, including all studies which were supposedly showing massive health risks, including their initial proposals and their methods. Just once, I want to see scientific evidence, not some buried study that only allows access to the results, and rumors of studies which were buried for showing the wrong results.

The statements on Phillip Morris's web site are there, IMO, to placate those who are running roughshod over the tobacco industry in this hysterical attempt mto deny personal freedom to those who do not go along wth their personal opinions. It is a vain attempt to not be driven out of business, not a truthful indicator of beliefs. Therefore I deny these statements as fodder for ignorance. I will continue to deny them until I receive that full disclosure information I mentioned above. And I will continue to smoke as well.

Sometimes you have to dig deeper than the surface to truly deny ignorance. Try another shovel full.

TheRedneck

reply to post by Enthralled Fan

I just noticed I seem to be responding to you a lot in this thread...

We are talking about cigarettes here, not household cleaners, processed foods and perfume. We are not talking about working at kodak, a machine shop or a printshop. We are discussing cigarettes, and how employers are testing for usage with blood tests, and why they are doing it. Not a night around a campfire.

Nice try at trying to derail the thread with other dangerous things people confront everyday.

Why don't you start a thread about the dangers of processed foods or perfume?

Maybe because this dispute is not in a vacuum? You are claiming that smoking bans are acceptable because of the inherent dangers in smoking. Why is it off topic to state that there are other, more serious dangers that are not being addressed?

I was thinking that you were simply unaware of the true controversy surrounding smoking, but now I am seriously wondering if you are not pushing a political agenda... Tell me I'm wrong?

TheRedneck


[edit on 19-6-2008 by TheRedneck]

reply to post by TheRedneck


Sometimes folk push a political agenda without being completely conscious they are doing so - so many people have grown up with these bans that they fail to ask the hard questions...there is a huge industry now around the "fear" of toxins and "health".....when you grow up in a climate of fear you lose objectivity...but if you have memory of life without these bans your perspective is different...

Fear is the food of marketing....Fear a powerful motivator and used to sell everything from toothpaste to Zoloft to fascism....when one is addicted to fear one is always ready to accept the next "solution" in order to avoid personal responsibility...