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What do you consider as the best martial art in the world?

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posted on Jun, 22 2008 @ 09:21 AM
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Shorinji Kempo, it without doubt the finest, it takes all the finest styles and skills for all the others and makes the most graceful yet powerful art in the world today, tank you Doshinso, and shinichi oda, for my lessons.




posted on Jun, 22 2008 @ 09:58 AM
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Muay Thai is the best stand up striking from my experience,

Judo or Brazilian Jujitsu is the best grapling in the world, now

combine these two and you have a world elite fighter/martialartist.



posted on Jun, 22 2008 @ 10:35 AM
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I don't know that much about any martial arts, but when I was younger I loved kick boxing, (STREET FIGHTER!! lol)

From what I've read online, Krav Maga and more recently bokator seem really cool. (The history behind bokator is interesting, I like the rise and fall, the perscution, how it was forbidden (forbidden stuff just seems much cooler and interesting) and I saw a reference to 52 blocks (a video on youtube, talking about kimbo slice) seems cool.

Muay Thai too, there was a small studio around the corner from my place a few years ago, saw a bunch of pamphlets for it around the neighborhood, and really wanted to try it, but when I finally went to it it was shut down.

I've taken karate twice (got to yellow belt both times then quite) I took jujitsu once (in like grade 5 then quite, I don't even think I made it to yellow) A buddy of mine took judo and he showed me some moves when we were 13 (showing me moves= him kicking my ass)



posted on Jun, 22 2008 @ 01:29 PM
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The best thing to do is find a teacher who knows several styles, and is not a traditionalist. They usually teach what works, not what looks cool. I've been studying martial arts for the past 30 years so take my word for it. One of the best schools, if you are close enough, is the lion's den. Especially the one in Coeur D' Alene Idaho. The teachers name is Derrick Cleveland and he's the best teacher i've ever had. He knows 7 different styles(including muai thai and brazilian jiujutsu) and combines them all. He will also teach traditional styles if you want.

[edit on 22-6-2008 by Anuubis]



posted on Jun, 22 2008 @ 06:52 PM
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I've just read all 12 pages of replies in an effort to see if there is anyone out there who know what I know.

I've seen replies from people who have dedicated many years to martial arts - yet have not found the right teacher.

I've seen replies from people who may be very good fighters - in the conventional sense.

I've seen replies that were just so much crap.

Here's the thing - the very best in the world will never be known. What those people become in order to be that good prevents that from occuring. They will never fight eachother - at least not in front of others as they have nothing to prove. Chances are they each know what the likely outcome would be the instant they lay eyes on eachother.

Those that know what I know will understand the following verse - those that don't, won't.

If you want to soar the heights and reach the depths of Kung Fu -
First you must practice Chi Kung
If you want to soar the heights and reach the depths of Chi Kung -
First you must practice meditation.


I was lucky enough to have a teacher that taught this from the outset - learning the internal before the external. The external movement then became merely a tool with which to strengthen intent (Yi).

Energy (Chi) follows intent/will (Yi) so the more controlled your intent, honed by static and moving meditation, the greater your skill in manipulating energy.

Chi can be manipulated to the extent that it can be shaped into any weapon - even have time delays added. It does not need specific points of entry as in pressure points, and with higher skilled practioners it does not even need physical contact to be made.

Anyone recall the first Bloodsport movie where to enter the competition Van Damme has someone pick one of the bricks in the middle of a stack - then proceeds to strike the top one so that the selected one - 2 or 3 down from the top - explodes?

That technique (the select break) is a reality - I can and have done it. It is a technique that was developed for penetrating body armour - without penetrating it.

It did not take a lifetime of training or any large amount of money or devoting every living moment to achieve that skill - nor am I particularly talented. All it took was the right teaching from someone who was taught the right way. In this way of martial arts they would say it is sticking to the trunk and not being tempted by the fruit to go out on a limb.

The most skilled practitioners have no desire for violence, reward or recognition - this path has taken them beyond that. In fact, there is a point in the way where such desires will prevent you from going any further. For them, martial arts long ago became a tool of learning and growth - one of the many pathways to enlightenment.

While desires and duality exist, there is a limit to how great a martial artist can become - hence you will never see the very best in demonstration, sport or professional scenarios. However, if you are a little lucky, you might find one who will teach - reluctantly.

There are many pretenders out there - plenty willing to take your money or string you along having you perform tasks for them (including instructing) while you hope they have something more to teach you. There are also many who do not even know they are pretenders due, through no fault of their own, to ignorance.



posted on Jun, 22 2008 @ 11:49 PM
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reply to post by News Junkie
 
To truly follow the path to enlightenment one must always have tasted the temptation that would lead him astray.



posted on Jun, 23 2008 @ 12:01 AM
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Originally posted by News Junkie

Anyone recall the first Bloodsport movie where to enter the competition Van Damme has someone pick one of the bricks in the middle of a stack - then proceeds to strike the top one so that the selected one - 2 or 3 down from the top - explodes?

That technique (the select break) is a reality - I can and have done it. It is a technique that was developed for penetrating body armour - without penetrating it.



First, I doubt your comments, because you are not even using the correct Chinese spelling of the internal energy.

Second, that break is a special effect.

However, you are welcome to back up your claim with a video.

I practiced the brick break many years ago and got to the point where I could break one of those very large hand-made looking bricks with a short strike of about three inches, and I've also broken large irregularly shaped (dry) river rocks. It's not easy, but it only took me one summer to work up to it. Unfortunately the technique causes your hand to become a little bit larger and since I play the piano, I didn't want this so I didn't continue.

The real expression of the internal coordination of power is expressed in the Chinese concept of fa-jin or fa-jing, and it is most often demonstrated by pole shaking. You're welcome to post a video of you doing that as well. It's easy to see if a person actually possesses this power that way.

No intent to diss you. It's just that this kind of parlor trick of breaking is easy to fake and even fool yourself. It has little or nothing to do with fighting ability. Chen Xiao Wang even admits this and he's the top exponent of the Chen Tai Ji system.

HTH.



[edit on 23-6-2008 by Badge01]



posted on Jun, 23 2008 @ 12:33 AM
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Spelling whatever ... I don't speak or read Chinese - didn't need to learn to do that either.

I'm fully aware of the little tricks people use to fake it - tilting of blocks, setting blocks up with gaps between etc...

The true purpose of the breaks in the context of internal martial arts is t gauge one's ability to control and project chi (or Qi if you prefer) beyond the physical extent of one's body. Examination of the blocks/bricks afterwards is what the exercise is all about - seeing how straight the fractures are and to what depth they remain straight.

For the select it is merely a matter of channelling the energy so that it loops or turns in the appropriate place. The more accurately or precisely you can channel energy - the less energy you need.

In fact by chanelling you can determine whether this energy repels or attracts, you can shape it into a blade or a rope - the possibilities are endless. However, the ability to channel it effectively is determined by focus and intent, which is determined by clarity of mind, which is determined by skill in meditation.

That fact that your hand grew in size reveals that you have absolutely no experience of what I'm talking about - i.e. you did not perform an "internal" break - you performed an external one. Internal arts require no physical (as in muscular) force.

I have no intention of videoing a break - I have nothing to prove. Believe it or don't believe it - whatever you choose you'll be right.

I had to first unlearn everything I had learned about external martial arts before I could learn internal martial arts - then they had to be integrated.

A few posts in this thread have alluded to what I'm referring to - I'm just waiting to see if those people post again to reveal where they are on that path.

When the student is ready - the teacher will appear.



posted on Jun, 23 2008 @ 12:55 AM
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Originally posted by Anuubis
reply to post by News Junkie
 
To truly follow the path to enlightenment one must always have tasted the temptation that would lead him astray.

Always? . . .

Others are revolted
I am unmoved
Gripped by desires
I am unmoved
Hearing the wisdom of sages
I am unmoved

I move only in my own way


Da Mo

[edit on 23-6-2008 by News Junkie]



posted on Jun, 23 2008 @ 08:05 AM
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reply to post by News Junkie
 


You are correct, I was using mostly external power and not fa-jing to do that break.

Fa-jing is like the movement you see when you slam down the hinges you see in a step ladder, which causes the ladder to open.

I was using some of that, as evidenced by the 'short power'. Generally you can't do an external power technique without -some- internal power contribution.

However your description of 'forming' the internal power into shapes is not accurate, those may be mental imagery used, but the power source and generation is either diamond-shaped or pyramid-shaped.

If you'd like to know more about it, you're free to U2U me.

Thanks for the post.



posted on Jun, 23 2008 @ 05:07 PM
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Mental imagery used is whatever you want it to be - i.e. whatever works for an individual. The clearer and more real the visualisation is, the better the energy will conform to it.

The energy is just there - it just is - quantum energy. We don't create it, we don't destroy it, we don't generate it. All we do is borrow it and channel it and then let it go.

My teacher started me off by teaching me what imagery works for him - in time I found that different imagery worked better for me as an individual. Basically it's whatever makes it more "real" for the individual because . . .

What the mind can believe, the mind can achieve. Doubt is what prevents the effective use of Chi.

Lose the doubt, lose the dogma. Established systems and teachings are useful for opening the doors, but once through the doorway it's up to you whether you use them as foundations or use them as limiting walls. This is the point at which you can become creative.

I once dreamed of performing hand sets with my elbows in a waterfall and my hands poking through the other side. I told my teacher. I never did anything further with that imagery - but my teacher did.

BTW, imagery is all we have if you really think about it.


I have not been taught what you are referring to. For difference between a strike that repels and one that drops an opponent without moving them - We used the mental imagery of converging or diverging cones - probably connected with yin/yang properties - doesn't really matter, it just works.

BTW, ever heard of the Da Mo fist set?

I'm still not sure we are talking about the same thing. What I learned began with breathing based meditation/s and simplified systems of meridians (nowhere near as complex as the medical systems). Most of it, purportedly, originated with Da Mo including small and grand circulations. For grand circulation I was taught Toaist and Buddhist, and though it involved 2 extra steps - I preferred the Buddhist method using the additional points at the base of the skull and at the solar plexus.

Later on, the "health" circulations were extended into iron body/back/head.

Similarly, 5 gate breathing was extended into iron arms/legs. Actually, I have that backwards - arms and legs came first and then 5 gate breathing. Was easier to learn 2 gates at a time then move onto adding in the other 3 - first sequentially, then simultaneously.

The two most used vessels were the storage vessel located in the lower abdomen and the governing vessel located near the perenium. I'm sure there are "proper" names and spelling for those as well . . .

We drew energy in through the tricky gate (3rd eye position) mostly but NEVER through the Bahui (top of skull) for spiritual defense reasons. Bahui was only ever opened for projecting Chi - say for head strikes, or as part of the whole body for extending detox meditations by radiating chi outward into the world (thus becoming compassion meditation).

At all times the Win gate was opened by placing the tip of the tongue on the roof of the mouth.

Any of this sound familiar to you or are we still worlds apart?

If you need a scientific basis for understanding what I was taught then you need to view it from the perspective of quantum physics and the effect of conciousness on the quantum field - it's not necessary to understand it from that perspective to work but if, like me, it makes it more believable and real for you then that may help. Even so, it will still be awhile before science understands intellectually what has been known on an experience level by some people for thousands of years.

The key to it all is state of mind and the discipline necessary for achieving that comes through meditation.

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posted on Jun, 23 2008 @ 10:52 PM
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You are both right, Fa-jin and qi are one and the same. There are 17 different dialects in China. They just came from different areas. Qi (pronounced chi) comes from the dialect they use in the area bordering the sea of Japan. Hence the similarity with the Japanese word Ki, which is the focus of ones aura energy. For those who do not know how, it's most likely because they cannot open their minds. That is how the ninja learn to fight without seeing their opponents.



posted on Jun, 23 2008 @ 11:42 PM
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Originally posted by AnuubisThat is how the ninja learn to fight without seeing their opponents.
Sticky Snake helps too
It's a technique I adapted to a game I play with my kids - similar to JKDs "hands" but more of a grapple - it is played with eyes shut - great fun and good development of sensing movement, tension and intention in an opponent.

In order to use sticky snake well you need to maintain contact with your opponents weapons - in order to defeat it you need to break contact with your opponent.

Practising sensing heat can also be an advantage in the dark.

[edit on 23-6-2008 by News Junkie]

[edit on 23-6-2008 by News Junkie]



posted on Jun, 24 2008 @ 06:55 AM
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There are several interpretations of qi/ki.
The 3rd type is the one used in aikido and tai chi

1. The mystical energy field from chinese medicine. I have felt this during several aikido exercises. I believe it is real but has very little to do with real fighting.

2. Internal muscle power - used in the hard styles for body conditioning

3. It is just another name for energy in the scientific sense. It therefore has 3 manifestations: linear kinetic energy, rotational kinetic energy and gravitational energy.

The way of redirecting a persons energy in an attack is the core of aikido
ai- harmony
ki - energy
do- way

Beware all the mysticisym around ki. It is physical. It is energy and its feeling of contact and redirected can only be felt through years of practice. In any of the softer arts. But the two which really enhance the feeling of it are definitely tai chi and aikido. The reason is you have to be soft is to feel and redirect the energy. If you are too strong then you actually counteract some of the energy which is wasteful. there is more to the soft arts than just ki there are incredibly subtle movements using leverage, positioning, relaxation and technique.

Remeber the tai chi masters of old were said to be able to defeat the shaolin monks. Softer styles rule!



posted on Jun, 24 2008 @ 07:18 AM
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A nice example of the blending of energies in aikido is the technique:

Yokomen uchi shiho nage
(side head strike four-direction throw)

youtube link

In this case the strike and the blend are both circular (using rotational energy) then the gravitational energy is added at the end with the throw. The redirection of this energy with a soft feeling is what is meant by ki in my opinion.


[edit on 24-6-2008 by Dr X] can't embed movie for some reason??

[edit on 24-6-2008 by Dr X]



posted on Jun, 24 2008 @ 08:52 AM
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Originally posted by Anuubis
You are both right, Fa-jin and qi are one and the same.


Among the Chinese soft energy clan there are thought to be eight types of energy. Fa-jing and Peng-jing are two of them. Others list up to 25 types. (see below)

I posted a video of CXW expressing the former.

It is an expression of Qi, but it is not 'the same' since Qi is considered a more encompassing term.

Also, it has nothing to do with 'Quantum effects' which are defined as only acting at the sub-atomic distance.

Anyone telling you that it is, is a charlatan and a fake. They use this term to avoid disclosing their ignorance because it is 'mysterious'.

Qi is a physical phenomenon and is explainable in physical and mechanical terms in regard to martial arts. It simply means 'breath/essence' in the Chinese interpretation. It's only given some 'mysterious' connotation by Westerners who don't understand it.

If you want more information see the Neijia list which discusses all this in detail and has a lot of English educated Chinese participants and has been in existence for many years.

HTH.

Jings: (note some of these are are called 'jings' but many are just techniques which use the core strength of the Neijia arts.

Borrowing
Close-up
Cold
Controlling
Cutting
Deflecting
Distance
Drawing-up
Fine
Folding
Following
Inches
Interrupting
Listening
Neutralizing
Open-up
Rolling
Rubbing
Sinking
Spiral
Sticking
Twisting
Uprooting
Vibrating Bouncing
Vibrating


[edit on 24-6-2008 by Badge01]



posted on Jun, 24 2008 @ 07:53 PM
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Originally posted by AnuubisFor those who do not know how, it's most likely because they cannot open their minds.


Yes.


Yes


Had to add the 2nd yes to avoid 1 line post


[edit on 24-6-2008 by News Junkie]



posted on Jun, 24 2008 @ 07:58 PM
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Originally posted by Dr X
1. The mystical energy field from chinese medicine. I have felt this during several aikido exercises. I believe it is real but has very little to do with real fighting.


That's the one. Feeling it and acknowledging it as real is the biggest hurdle. To adapt it to martial uses you just need to be coached in how to maipulate it.


Originally posted by Dr X
The 3rd type is the one used in aikido and tai chi

3. It is just another name for energy in the scientific sense. It therefore has 3 manifestations: linear kinetic energy, rotational kinetic energy and gravitational energy.


Aikido - maybe. True Tai Chi uses the medical kind.


Originally posted by Dr X
Beware all the mysticisym around ki. It is physical.
It just is what it is. To put a name such as physical on it limits the perception of it to one's interpretation of that word.


Originally posted by Dr X
It is energy and its feeling of contact and redirected can only be felt through years of practice.
That would only be true if it is taught in the wrong order. The wrong order is physical, manipulation, perception. Unfortunately this is the order that 99.99% of people pursue it.

The correct order is perception, manipulation, physical. Then it can be learned in a short time - a few years with maybe 2 x 2hr trainings a week and maybe half an hour every other day of self practice.

If you learn it in backwards order, it's like trying to lay the foundations of a house after the house was built - you pretty much have to tear down the house first.


Originally posted by Dr X
The reason is you have to be soft is to feel and redirect the energy. If you are too strong then you actually counteract some of the energy which is wasteful.
Being soft physically follows on from being calm in the mind. If it is learned in the correct order, then you don't need to undo all those years of external "tense, tense, tense" in the body which tranlates to "force, force, force" in the mind. That external mindset is loaded with attachment to outcome and desires - which inhibits being in the moment and clear minded.

This is the reason people can take so long to learn it, if ever. They have to unlearn all of that previous teaching both physically and mentally.



posted on Jun, 24 2008 @ 08:31 PM
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Originally posted by Dr X
there is more to the soft arts than just ki there are incredibly subtle movements using leverage, positioning, relaxation and technique.
Not contradicting you - just stating that in this situation there is a continuum where at one end most of the work is done externally where only a little internal effect is present and at the other end most of the work is done internally with only little to no external skill is required.

However, one of the main developments of internal skill is to integrate the body and mind - thus some external skill will naturally be developed as part of this process of integration. By contrast, the medical use of chi achieves the same thing via different methods. For example, traditional (as opposed to contemporary) accupressure training involves grinding bags of rice into powder by massage. BTW, accupressure is only about halfway up the medical pyramid in terms if skill with chi.

One of the components in my learning was to backhand bags of gravel into powder while maintaining meditative states. It is the maintenance of the meditative state and focus involved that integrates the physical with the mental - that is why the meditation and manipulation within the body should be learned first. Adding in physical movement later - whether for medical or martial applications is what integrates it all and is a tool for development of control of chi outside of ones body.



[edit on 24-6-2008 by News Junkie]



posted on Jun, 24 2008 @ 08:35 PM
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Originally posted by Dr X
Remeber the tai chi masters of old were said to be able to defeat the shaolin monks.
My teacher's teacher used to fight in asia. He would beat internal fighters before he even learned internal. He did it because he was able to disturb their minds.

That's where the integration comes in. In order to maintain the required state of mind you must combine physical and mental integration with training is adverse situations - getting hit, discomfort, exhaustion, training in public (see if you can train in front of pretty girls without resorting to the flashy moves :lol
. "Pain is your friend" was a regular lesson.


Originally posted by Dr X
Softer styles rule! .
Yes, but not merely for the martial arts aspect - they are a pathway to the truth if you can find the right teacher.

(bb code)

[edit on 24-6-2008 by Jbird]




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