Gay Men, Straight Women Have Similar Brains

reply to post by apc


That's because their core beliefs were still unchanged. Merely the more visible beliefs were changed.

reply to post by Buck Division


IMO new habit and mental training will cause the brain to form different neural connections which will then be detectable with the MRI and PET scans. It adapts to the way we consciously and unconsciously use our minds. That's what I actually meant.

reply to post by TheBandit795


I'd still like you to put your theory to test. See if you can become gay by changing your neuro paths in your brain. Let us know how it works out.

Waste of my time. And besides, how would I be able to prove that on an internet forum?

But anyway there are different ways to do it. One I've learned from Skyfloating in this post here.


And an old thread with info about people with multiple personality disorders having totally different brainwaves whenever they assumed a different personality.

www.abovetopsecret.com...

www.science-frontiers.com...

[edit on 17-6-2008 by TheBandit795]

I am gay. I was born into a Christian family smack dab in the middle of Bible Belt territory and was taken to church every Sunday from the time I was in diapers until I quit going - somewhere in college. I have two straight brothers - both married. I don't know why I'm attracted to men. I just know it happened sometime during puberty and it was definitely not something I wanted. I can't dance worth a flip (possibly due to my strict upbringing), nor am I a fashionista. I wear the same old t-shirts and jeans till they start to get holes.
As someone mentioned, it seems that evolution should have bred out homosexuality. But it hasn't. In fact, it could be argued that in this day and time a relatively few couples not having children would be a blessing - not a defect.

im totally confident that someone can have symmetrical hemispheres and still not be gay, it feels funny to think that just because i LOVE women, that i have this "bulging" right hemisphere.

look, gay people are here, and their alive, so why not just drop it, well because someone always feels that their two cents will make the matter dissappear. this will never be the case.

but its evident that those who respect themselves respect others as well.

This is absolutely nuts. I found this and figured there'd be some pretty good discussion regarding the social implication of this study. Genetic defects!? People will say ANYTHING to stand out, won't they?

This is a SOCIAL factor. I really, really, really doubt that any of this would have applied to any older civilization where homosexuality was more accepted. But as the shameful opinions of our ancestors became more and more hateful and wildly paranoid, the general perception twisted it all around. "Only women can like boys so if you're a boy who likes boys you're like a woman." I don't think it comes naturally, to anyone, to gush and squeal and act flamboyantly fabulous, whether it be a woman or a man. That attitude is repression escaping, and that's why some of the stereotypical crap tossed around on this thread is social standard.

And don't tell me I don't have a sense of humor. If some yokel I worked with made a joke he meant no offense by, I'd laugh politely. But I hold you people to higher standards than ignorant people I associate with on a daily basis. When you can identify firsthand what evil it does stop joking about it for God's sakes.

Way to go!

let's take a small sample of apples and oranges and compare them to each other like some "authority" and draw a clearly agenda based conclusion to create a separation between types of people.

I personally don't care what a few "experts" think on the subject.
You can take any two people, and even two of the most similar people, compare them both architecturally and NO TWO WILL BE THE SAME REGARDLESS OF GENDER, preference, or whatever else someone wishes to try to compare.

No two brains are the same.

This is reckless at best and is a humiliation to the scientific community as a whole.

Anyone, even in this day and age trying to convey how they understand the mechanics of the brain are speculative at best, and anyone who wants to create a separation based on something as miniscule on the grand scale as gender or sexuality is a joke.

What's next? Is there one that is better than the other?
Is one's existence more justified than the other?

This is where this always leads, and why I look at subject like this with no merit whatsoever.

If I were a complete idiot, all I would get out of this is to take my lesbian cousin with me to home depot, and send my homosexual cousin to the mall with my wife to look at sweaters.

But I know better than that.

What a counterproductive subject.

Why don't the swedish just stick to something they are good at like erotica movies?

Originally posted by furiousracer313
OMG, being gay is a CHOICE not a BRAIN DEFECT!! God does not accept gay men into heaven, so why would he create man like that??

sin is sin

it is only belief in jesus that he died for us are we able to be saved

so your comment means pretty much nothing

god loves us all equally he just doesnt like that we sin

you sin and therefor by your statement you are not accepted into heaven either

bring some ice water, youll need

It seems that there's no limit to the hatred humans can express. While I would have to say this thread is tame in comparison to others on similar subjects, it's definitely not a shining example of tolerance and reason. So, a few pieces of information.

First, sexual orientation and gender identity are two entirely different things. Homosexual men are not women. They do not want to be women. They are men who are attracted to other men. This is true for homosexual women as well, who are women, and do not wish to be men.

When you have a case where a person's gender does not fit their physical appearance, that's gender identity disorder, and is a separate problem that is unrelated to sexual orientation. People with a gender identity disorder (transgendered/transsexual persons) may be homosexual, heterosexual, bisexual or asexual.

As far as whether or not it's "normal" or "natural", it's occurred since the beginning of recorded history, and likely before that. Homosexuality is observed in the animal kingdom as well, and those animals don't have the baggage of human society to influence them. I'd say it's entirely normal, and it's just the way some creatures happen to develop.

The problem you get when you start trying to figure out what causes it, whether or not it's a disorder or deformation, etc., is that you're marginalizing human beings. Who cares what causes it? Who cares why? It's only a problem to those who which to eradicate it. Homosexual people are just the way they are, and aside from the stigma associated with homosexuality by a religiously indoctrinated society, they're just as happy being themselves as anyone else is.

The quest for a cause to homosexuality is the quest to relegate homosexual persons to second-class status, to explain away their very existence as a mistake or genetic fluke, and take away their humanity. I'd imagine many would think that finding the cause would finally put the zealots to rest, but it won't. They'll simply shift their focus from arguing that it's a lifestyle choice to arguing that it's a defect that should be corrected.

reply to post by TheBandit795

Unless I'm mistaken, you're not talking about programming "beliefs." You're talking about programming physiology. It is quite clear to me that sexual orientation is predisposed at the moment of conception with environmental factors acting on the predisposition to determine how these genetic attributes present themselves. You can indeed program all sorts of beliefs on top of this. But you can not consciously or subconsciously alter DNA nor how the DNA has presented in the brain with environmental influence during early childhood. If you were to try to use for instance operant conditioning to alter a person's sexuality as is done in these "gay camps" that Christians send their children to, you can create psychological barriers left and right to bring the person into a state of denial. But they are who they are, and the moment a traumatic event happens that breaks down those barriers, they're gay again. No... this sort of programming would be an illusion. Just as it is an illusion that gay or straight actually means anything.

[edit on 17-6-2008 by apc]

Hey everyone- I couldnt get through the 6 pages of replies on here because I became so disgusted with a few of the gay unfriendly responses... but heres a twist that maybe no one has thought of yet...

Maybe we can start doing MRI's on some of the more blatant bashers and homo-haters out there and REALLY uncover a few truths... hehehe

Wouldnt that put a quick end to the hatred.

By the way, I am gay- been out ALL my life... quite proud, and NOT AT ALL DEFECTIVE.

Happy Pride Month!

[edit on 17/6/08 by xander68]

this still doesn't explain why some guys become gay after going to prison... but seriously, i think mentally we all have defects, show me one that has the perfect brain. I wonder what contributes to this early development in the brain, like if it aint genetic then how can someone prevent it.

People don't become gay after going to prison. Often times people will partake in homosexual activities when stuck in a situation that doesn't afford them any other option for sexual release. Then, once that situation has ended, they usually go back to their original orientation.

In the case that some persons identified as heterosexual, went to prison, and then identified as homosexual once their prison sentence has concluded, I'd say it's likely they are either bisexual or were homosexual but attempting to confirm to mainstream society. I don't think it's really a big deal either way, and I don't know why so many people find it to be so important.

Originally posted by Griff
reply to post by TheBandit795

 

I'd still like you to put your theory to test. See if you can become gay by changing your neuro paths in your brain. Let us know how it works out.

Neurological effects can alter sexual preferences (e.g., bloke becomes pedophile after developing tumour, goes away after surgery, comes back on remission, goes away again after second surgery - I hate to mention that in this thread due to some people's prejudices).

Anyway, some suggested that homosexuality cannot be genetic. No reason why not. In a purely evolutionary sense life is about successful reproduction, however it acts above the level of the individual - thus drone workers in insect colonies do not reproduce but still add to the reproductive success of related genes.

I posted this over 18 months ago to a thread on the issue of homosexuality and genetics. It still applies now and some is relevant to issues raised in this thread.

Originally posted by melatonin

Originally posted by TexanDan
This is my basic problem with the idea that Homosexuality is genetic: for millions of years evolution has designed humans for 1 thing Species SURVIVAL!!! And our basic functions of life include survival, food, and reproduction. So why would evolution possibly allow our genetic code to allow for homosexuality, which in essence would be a viloation of what evolution designed us to be. Evolution designed us to pass our DNA on to the next generation for the survival of the species (like all other species) so why would it possibly have another gene hardwired into our brains that allows the species to be dysfunctional that would "tell" the brain that for the continuation of the speices (sex) you must mate with the same sex. It doesn't make sense why evolution would allow our genetic code to do that, now i know that our genetic code isnt perfect, but for the basic functions of the body our genetic code functions properly it operates pretty damn good.

There are many scenarios that could explain a genetic influence for homosexuality.

It is possible that some genes that provide an evolutionary adaptive trait in the mother could, in some circumstances, result in homosexuality in their male offspring. For example, if there are genes that promotes fecundity in the female but may result in a proportion of homosexual children. It needn't be a direct selection for homosexuality (like the genes underlying sickle cell actually provide protection against malaria)

Then it could also be a sort of 'worker bee' altruistic type selection. There is evidence that in large families the later children have a higher proportion of homosexuality. These children would aid the family through promoting survival of the other offspring, so although, the homosexual's reproductive fitness is low, the others in the familial group would be of increased fitness.

It could just be that when a certain group of individual alleles are expressed in a particular person (or certain mutations) the result is homosexuality.

So we need to look at group level fitness and secondary effects of genes. We also see homosexuality in other species, sort of kills the pure social learning approach. It will likely be an amalgam of environmental and genetic factors.

Oh, and homosexuals can reproduce if they like. Many do

[edit on 9-10-2006 by melatonin]

linky


[edit on 17-6-2008 by melatonin]

Is it genetic?
Is it choice?
Could it be both?
There are even studies that would lead one to believe that it is the result of the different levels of sex hormones the fetus was exposed to in the womb. It really doesn’t mater. Life is very short, try to find what happiness you can. In other words try to live and let live

Originally posted by Anonymous ATS
It seems that there's no limit to the hatred humans can express.

Actually, there is evidence that you are wrong here. Hatred, and other strong sensations, are bounded by something known as the "Feigenbaum Constant", which is also used to calculate when smooth water flow through pipes becomes turbulent. There are physical limits to hatred. No kidding. I have a thread on this exact subject here:

www.abovetopsecret.com...

#

The quest for a cause to homosexuality is the quest to relegate homosexual persons to second-class status, to explain away their very existence as a mistake or genetic fluke, and take away their humanity.

Nope. I disagree. I think people are just interested in how things work.

There are some people that will misuse any new knowledge. However, I think that understanding what causes homosexuality might be very powerful in understanding love, hatred, and other aspects of human experience.

I also wonder if there is a same study for pedophiles. maybe they got major defects too in the brain that might explain their preferences.

reply to post by apc


What DNA is concerned. I agree with the following thread. I can't offer evidence right now, but I believe that consciousness is even able to alter DNA.

www.abovetopsecret.com...

I think it's possible for a guy with a genetic disposition for having two left feet to become Michael Jordan.


[edit on 17-6-2008 by TheBandit795]

Originally posted by DuneKnight
I also wonder if there is a same study for pedophiles. maybe they got major defects too in the brain that might explain their preferences.

But using words like defect isn't the best approach. Who's to say what 'normal' and 'abnormal' is? Although, to be fair, we have to label certain conditions in some way.

Perhaps having a proportion of homosexuality in the human population is normal and therefore homosexuals are normal, just different. They are essentially the same as you in every way bar sexual preferences and potentially some biology. Same goes with schizophrenia, this also might have some genetic influence and a potential secondary gene effect explanation - schizotypy is a bit like 'mild' schizophrenia and tends to cluster around families with schizophrenic members. People with schizotypy and other more mild mental 'disorders' (e.g., bipolar) appear to be very creative and attract mates well (i.e., have positive effects on fitness), maybe too many 'schizotypy' genes result in full blown psychotic conditions (c.f. sickle-cell).

All interesting possibilities.

I know someone who works with potential adult paedophiles (i.e., children), they tend to have had quite distressing events happen in their lives (sexual abuse in many). Thus, there might be some degree of genetic determination, but we just can't ignore environmental.

Same goes with homosexuality. Genotype & environment (+random stuff) ---> phenotype. So both are relevant.

[edit on 17-6-2008 by melatonin]