We Weren't Designed To Eat Meat, Here Is Proof

reply to post by ImaginaryReality1984


From your own link:

the natural adaptation for most (possibly all) humans in the modern world is a vegan diet.

Still not convinced then?

reply to post by Shar_Chi


From my own link again

If for any reason you choose not to use fortified foods or supplements you should recognise that you are carrying out a dangerous experiment - one that many have tried before with consistently low levels of success.

No i'm not convinced, please dont' pick and choose from the evidence, the simple fact is a vegan diet is not complete. the human body will survive on what it's given, but optimal performance involves meat or meat products. Fortified foods take the place but are obviously artificial.

I support anyone who want sto take a vegan or vegetarian approach, i really and honestly do. However don't say it's the best approach because the science is against you and any scientifically mined vegan is also against you. At least on the science i mean, not the moral level.

[edit on 26-6-2008 by ImaginaryReality1984]

ImaginaryReality...

As a vegan/vegetarian of more then 20 years, I feel I have to chip in that, although the science bit may be important and correct in most cases, very few omnivores have perfect nutrition either, so to single out the vegan diet for criticism on this point is perhaps a little unfair. I would hazard a guess that most omnivores are horribly deficient in more than one chemical. Also, I see no understanding here of how our bodies and metabolisms may run differently on different fuels...DeadFlagBlues maybe completely correct when he states that he has no deficiencies. No-one knows how his system works, and it's really no-ones business. Usually, the vegan lifestyle is adopted for ethical reasons, and in my book is beyond criticism for that very reason. The Vegan Society supplements guidelines are just that...guidelines. Perhaps correct for the majority, but not everyone.

I also understand how we can come across as condescending or difficult or arrogant, but we are often challenged to a fairly severe degree over our beliefs and dietary habits, and it's difficult to separate from that sometimes. It can and does make us defensive, and quite rightly. Personally, I'm sick of people who choose to give me a hard time over my diet, which is intensely important to me spiritually, as well as ethically (...this isn't aimed at you btw...not at all!...) just because they don't understand how creative it can be.

Vegetarianism or veganism doesn't ruin people's health in the way that more traditional carnivorous diets have been doing for centuries, or the way our modern processed junk diet does, and the level of vitriol aimed at us vegans simply isn't justified considering the general state of health of Joe Public in most developed countries.

Basically, I'm suggesting understanding rather than confrontation, from both sides.

Cait

Originally posted by Shar_Chi
Hmm, I must remember to look under the bed for all my deficiencies, after 10 years of vego diet without any supplements they gotta be around here somewhere right?

Just because you're not aware of them, doesn't mean you don't have them. Sometimes people have conditions for years or even decades that they are not aware of (ie cancer, MD, etc..)

reply to post by jfj123

Aye, I notice deficiencies in others all the time, yet they seem incurably oblivious

Deficiencies are not an exclusively vegan problem, and most vegans and vegetarians are really careful about their nutrition, in my experience. The science bit can be argued back and forth for all eternity, but until you have a person's bloodwork results infront of you, and know how to interpret them, there is nothing to say...it becomes a pointless and unproductive discussion.

The ethics and spirituality of veganism are much more engaging subjects to explore, but I think they scare the pants of omnivores...which is why we always end up bitching about the science stuff.

'Nuff said...

Cait

Originally posted by caitlinfae
ImaginaryReality...

As a vegan/vegetarian of more then 20 years, I feel I have to chip in that, although the science bit may be important and correct in most cases, very few omnivores have perfect nutrition either, so to single out the vegan diet for criticism on this point is perhaps a little unfair.

Although your are correct in that many omnivores don't eat as they should, I don't believe we're singling out vegans but the responding to their pointed attacks. If you read through the thread, you'll notice how the vegan side has made blanket, unproven statements and we're simply responding to them.

I would hazard a guess that most omnivores are horribly deficient in more than one chemical.

I can tell you in my case, I am deficient in nothing.
Normal blood sugar levels.
Cholesterol is 130
Good LDL to HDL ratio
etc..
All normal blood work.

I own a construction company and do heavy work all day then lift weights in the evening 5 days per week for bodybuilding. What I'm getting at is I'm CONSTANTLY under physical stress and because of a standard omnivore diet, I'm doing well.

Also, I see no understanding here of how our bodies and metabolisms may run differently on different fuels

Although there are minor differences in the normal human body, all of our bodies work the same. If they didn't, doctors wouldn't exist as they would need to learn how each and every person worked seperately. SO we all work basically the same as long as we're discussing normal human physiology.

...DeadFlagBlues maybe completely correct when he states that he has no deficiencies.

But he doesn't know this. It's just a "hunch" that he has. Science says he probably does have deficiencies.

No-one knows how his system works, and it's really no-ones business.

Again, everyones systems work basically the same. If he has a disease or condition that removes him from the normal population, that would be different.

Usually, the vegan lifestyle is adopted for ethical reasons, and in my book is beyond criticism for that very reason.

That part of the vegan lifestyle if beyond criticism. However, the scientific reality of what it does to the human body is not beyond criticism. That's like saying we shouldn't ticket a handicapped person for speeding in a car.

I also understand how we can come across as condescending or difficult or arrogant, but we are often challenged to a fairly severe degree over our beliefs and dietary habits, and it's difficult to separate from that sometimes.

Same with us omnivores

It can and does make us defensive, and quite rightly. Personally, I'm sick of people who choose to give me a hard time over my diet, which is intensely important to me spiritually, as well as ethically (...this isn't aimed at you btw...not at all!

...) just because they don't understand how creative it can be.

Same with us omnivores
Notice the title of the thread? The statement is giving me a hard time about my diet

Vegetarianism or veganism doesn't ruin people's health in the way that more traditional carnivorous diets have been doing for centuries, or the way our modern processed junk diet does, and the level of vitriol aimed at us vegans simply isn't justified considering the general state of health of Joe Public in most developed countries.

But we're not discussing the other diets. Here we're discussing whether or not the title of the thread is correct. It is not by the way.

Basically, I'm suggesting understanding rather than confrontation, from both sides.
Cait

From an ethical standpoint, I applaud you for choosing to follow your beliefs. Many people who say they have beliefs are in actuality hypocritical and follow them at their convenience. You are obviously following your ethical beliefs even when it not convenient for you and that should be commended

Originally posted by Shar_Chi
reply to post by jfj123

 

Aye, I notice deficiencies in others all the time, yet they seem incurably oblivious

You may want to check your own before pointing out others

Originally posted by caitlinfae
Deficiencies are not an exclusively vegan problem, and most vegans and vegetarians are really careful about their nutrition, in my experience.

Well once again, the title of the thread is about whether or not we were designed to eat meat. We did indeed evolve to eat meat.

Also, just curious but how do you know that most vegans and veggies are really careful about their nutrition? First, you would need to know how many of each there are in the world and then you'd need to know whether or not they are careful and what careful means. Then you'd need to know whether or not that being careful has helped them avoid deficiencies. Do you happen to have that information?

The science bit can be argued back and forth for all eternity,

That's the interesting thing about science. You can't argue facts, only opinions. If it is a fact that there are deficiencies in a typical diet, whatever it may be, then you can't argue the point.

but until you have a person's bloodwork results infront of you, and know how to interpret them, there is nothing to say...it becomes a pointless and unproductive discussion.

Again this is where science comes in and brings us back to reality.

The ethics and spirituality of veganism are much more engaging subjects to explore, but I think they scare the pants of omnivores...which is why we always end up bitching about the science stuff.

'Nuff said...

Cait

Why would they scare omnivores??? I understand ethically why you are vegan and you should understand why I am not.

jfj123...

I really admire the thoroughness of your arguement, but this is exactly the kind of conversation that makes me ...and other vegans, I'm sure...defensive and unwilling to engage in talk about diet. I also admire Shar_chi and DeadFlagBlues for sticking with it so tenaciously! Maybe it's just that I'm older and jaded... Vegans and Vegggies generally are passionate people, and I actually, we are some of the least militant variety!

Anyway, you're quite right that the OP was about the suggestion that we're not designed to eat meat, which is a controversial statement, and possibly incorrect, in terms of anthropology. We could bat that one back and forth for centuries, I'm sure. I don't have the empirical knowledge to counter your argument, although I will say that I still believe that don't *don't* all run exactly the same...another thread, another argument, I think...

It seems that the discussion has developed as all discussions do, to encompass the wider aspects of diet and the reasons people live as vegans. Maybe it's not too useful to stick rigidly to the OP and talk it to death, as we have done, getting nowhere but an arguement, and progress to something that encourages more understanding? I for one would *love* to talk to more scientific minds than mine about issues such as this, but over and over again, I find nitpicky, and tempered exchanges get in the way, which makes me bad tempered and nitpicky in return.

I might just have to bow out of this discussion altogether...life is too short and I have some sweetcorn and coconut soup to make. It's just fabulously delicious...want some?

Cait

OK, I'll go have a blood test, see what we can see.

reply to post by Shar_Chi


If you're a vegetarian eating dairy products you should be ok, or if you eat eggs. If you are vegan i request you chck your diet to see if any foods you eat are fortified. Cereals for example, even the bran flakes are often fortified for thi s very reason.

Butters also are often fortified, as are many breads. My whole point was a diet where you are only eating natural foods will be lacking greatly in vitamin B12, as evidence from the link i gave. That's from a vegan website and hapily although they're vegan, they don't let their beliefs get in the way of the science.

To deny science just because it isn't convenient really annoys me i must say. The evidence says that vegans will be lacking in vitamin B12 unless they are eating fortified foods. Vegetarians should be fine as long as they include eggs and things like that in their diet.

Originally posted by slackerwire
Uh, humans have canine teeth why then?

Humans are omnivores.

short and sharp, i like. One star for you.



Mod Note: One Line and Short Posts – Please Review This Link.

[edit on 28-6-2008 by 12m8keall2c]

the universe is a wheel rotating in time. time brings change. change brings evolution. evolution means adapting to change.

we may have evolved into omnivores from apple eating grass suckers.

why look back?

[edit on 28-6-2008 by spearhead]

You know it is amazing to me to see that this argument is still going on. Kudos to the OP for comming up with a great idea for a thread. Although I disagree, I have to hand it to you. You definetly captured the peoples attention.

Good Job!

I'd have to disagree with one thing. Humans DO have canines. For tearing, yes tearing, flesh. And we don't need to be the same as a herbivores or carnivores, because we're omnivores, unless you eat rabbit food only.

Sounds to me like a disgruntled vegan!

We are omnivores to be sure. Seems inarguable from the scientific evidence I’ve seen. Westerners do eat more meat than is healthy, but that’s because we like it so much, and can afford it. It’s all about moderation, IMO. The only reason so many westerners have problems with meat building up in their intestines is that they don’t get enough fiber. It’s not that we’re not adapted to eating meat, it’s that our diets include too many processed foods that don’t allow our system to function as designed. My advise is to eat only the most natural and unadulterated meat you can find, in moderation, and get plenty of whole grains, fruit, and vegetables.

Our front teeth are made for ripping and tearing, and our back for grinding. Our lives are more important than any creature we can dominate, we are the highest up on the foodchain and must do whatever we can to fill our stomachs.

Ive become a Vegetarian in the last 3 weeks, I find it helps me to eat more vegetables and fruit (the 5 a day) when before I was not eating as much as I should.

So for me it actually helped with my health and I also will save about a thousand large animals in my lifetime. For this I think it is worth it.

Humans have the means and knowledge to not eat meat and keep a healthy diet.

I do like the taste of meat, but why kill something that you don't have to?